UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum 1st Luft

here is a very rare 1st model Luft (few know to exist) with engraved blade, by Richard Plumacher that I recently aquired at the Jag show. In fantastic condition and a wonderful piece all the way around.

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Ed:
I really don't like the looks of that eagle.
Jim

Why is that, Jim ?

Dave

Be very careful with engraved lufts, the only accepted variants are either eickhorn or voos, Plumacher was a defunct manufacturer who's name was used post war from 1950-1960, we see many examples of plumacher etched daggers that are substandard, I personally would have to have it authenticated by Tom Johnson Wittman or Bill Shea, The only engraved lufts that i have sceen to reference were all early nickel pieces to boot, also it is nice to see sprigs (leaves) under the eagle
get it checked out

Dave, Jim is right about the eagle.
The "give aways" are the curved beak and the uneven floral etching.

Ed,

Who did you buy it from ?

Dave

Take a look at the engraving on the second Luft in the for sale area. the eagle looks like an eagle, compare the two and it jumps out at ya!

I AGREE WHOLEHEARTLY. I am sure I saw one of these on Manions a couple of auctions or so ago. Definately pay to get this one checked out by a respected, knowledgable person like the names mentioned in previous posts.

I have begun to think that there are MANY more fakes entering the market place than anyone suspects. A Plumacher blade with an etch is always suspect in my mind. I've never seen a real one, but Who knows? It comes down to a personal like/dislike when we don't have period proof to fall back on? It will however have a great impact on resale. Buyers are getting more picky as time goes by (myself included) and don't want problems to explain.....

When confronted with dilemmas like this we have to fall back on our experiences and examination of various etches. I just see too many problems. Etch isn't clean. Eagle has no sprigs. The Plumacher thing. Etc. Just my observations and not meant to put down, etc.

I've seen an example of an eagle without the "comforting" sprigs beneath the wings, in a book, and personally, I don't believe that either. I've never seen a good etch by Plumacher. I've never seen evidence they entered that end of the market.

This Honor dagger is a post-war Plumacher creation of high quality:

The blade is artificial damascus with raised(guilded) etches: The scabbard is covered in leather:

Crossguard and grip closeup:

The Plumacher logo:

The company that made these did a good job but ther is no way anyone that's handled a real Honor dagger would be fooled by this: The black and red silk lined casing is also leather? covered and embellished with SS runes on the lid.

Hi

Ed has bought this dagger from a very good
person so no problem if not right!

Always trying to learn!

PVON

Ed
I have to agree with the trend of comments. Most collectors would not touch anything other than a plain bladed Plumacher or P. D. Luneschloss as well. As Denny said when it comes time to sell it may be tuff to find a buyer. How about showing off some of them killer navy daggers you have?

I just wanted to thank everybody for your input on this piece and have decided to send it to one of the blade experts as some of you have suggested. I have owned a ton of daggers over time but have not run in to this one before. Can,t wait to find out. Yes Tom I will try soon to get some Navies together.

Thank you for all of your input so far. I have decided to send it out to one of the big experts for a hands on examination. the problem with pieces like this is that when they begin to surface, those of you that have not had the hands on experience and years of sifting through hundreds of different pieces, will always express doubt because it is not standard textbook material that you are used to hearing about or seeing. As I go through the Wittmann Luft book, Im seeing the very same eagle with out wreaths and with the Jimmy Durante nose that you so eloquently describe. Look at pages 84, 248, 254, 263. In the mean time, I am going to be diligent about trying to obtain written confirmation on all these oddball items, and would gently suggest the that 5-10 year hobbyist may be missing out on some wonderful merchandise for fear of stepping up to the plate. For this I thank you.

I have posed that question in a thread several years ago why the eagle beak is a sign of postwar production when those shown in the Wittmann LW book are identical. Because this would mean that those daggers in Wittmann's book would be postwar as well. Unless, of course, there is some other criterion involved that no one seems to be able to articulate. This is one reason why I, as a collector, don't pay much attention to inconsistent and selective judgments and make my decisions based on what I like and want to have in my collection. I leave those open ended and eternal authenticity hassles to those who like to engage in that excercise.

Were the sprigs under the wings unique only to 2nd model lufts?

Willy: There seems to be a believe among some collectors that the Voos type LW eagle (with sprigs under the wings) is the only legitimate etching for 2nd LWs. However, the LW book by Wittmann tells a different story.
As far as the 1st model is concerned, I have never seen one with the Voos type etch. The notion that the eagle nose is too ugly to be original doesn't hold much water because the 1st LW shown on the dustcover of Wittmann's LW book shows an identically ugly eagle head, not only on the blade etching, but also on the etching on the upper scabbard fitting. Thus, the only thing that is assumed to be questionable is the PDL trademark.

Page 83 of witmans luft book holds the key

1st model lufts prior to 1937 had the option of 1st model luft engraved blades, More than likely after that one would have gotten a 2nd model luft with engraved blade
#1 cheaper
#2 More readily available
#3 Less time and effort to make
In the slim chance that this blade is legit have a fun time selling it....
White elephant
Manfred i disagree the eagle on the dust jacket dosent appear to be the same

Interesting. To be honest, I don't like the look of this eagle either. However, there is a very similar, if not identical etch to this one on a 2nd Luft pictured in Wittman's book, page 254 (and 248). The etch is complete with the ugly style eagle and there are no 'sprigs' to be seen??

Fitzer:
How long ago was this Wittmann book published? (I don't happen to have this particular one) Any author of earlier works will freely admit the introduction of errors based upon what was known at that time.
Jim

Jim,

The Wittmann book I have 'Exploring the Dress Daggers of the German Luftwaffe' was published in 1997. I am assuming this is the latest edition, as I purchased it only 6 months back.

Roy,

I take umbridge. I have a 1st model Luft with an etched, presentation blade that was most likely done by a jeweler at the time of presentation in 1943. Why would a flyer with a 1st model dagger opt for 2nd when he has a 1st?
Thanks.
Hunter1

Fitzer:
This blade is probably bad for the reasons indicated by more advanced collectors as indicated above. I really can't add much to this.
Jim

Hunter,
Good point.
Does anyone have the dates that the 2nd model luft was intorduced i always forget. And was there any rules that had to be followed after the 2nd model luft was introduced? If officers had 1st model lufts did they have to upgrade or were they allowed to wear there 1st luft till the dog days of the end of the war?