UBB.threads Forums General Militaria Flags, Field Gear, and Miscellaneous Militaria and Regalia Forum Donitz's Baton

This piece is still in Hamburg, Germany

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very exciting item,,,is it in a museum vic???..

Vic,

Most impressive, can you tell us more?
The embellished upper and lower fittings are quite exceptional ! Would you happen to know where or who was responsible for the manufacture of these batons?

Best regards!

Bill

Hello,....This is NOT Donnits baton!...His personal baton is displayed in a regimental museum in Shropshire, England. It is however possible that the example pictured is the version that was produced for Hitler to approve as a design model for the bestowed example (In Shropshire) he awarded to Donnit's.

Here's a link which Degens provided in the preceeding thread. It shows the baton mentioned by Howard J-H in the museum.

http://www.themarshalsbaton.com/Batons.htm

Regards
Russ

Hello.
BOTH are FAKES!
The story behind the baton in the regimental museum in Shropshire is a hoax.
There was a topic made by my friend Dr. Aylson Doyle from Brazil, of course long erased, with a one-of-a-kind research/investigation proving this without a shadow of a doubt!
Not only regarding details of the wrong construction and materials of that baton in the museum, but even the location, actual owner and the TRUE HISTORY of the original captured by an american PFC and the THEFT of the item later!
Another important, amazing piece of true history erased on this forum!
Denny.

This has been gone over before.
Denny,s is of course correct.Fakes.
The UK Military mag did an expose last year.
With photos of the US PFC and depositions.
Seiler.

Jesus, is nothing sacred?!

B~

As I recall, you can buy excellent fakes for about $3,000. But, the info is lost with the postings from this site.

Jim

Denny....You are talking utter rubbish.I have inspected Donits baton in Shropshire and can confirm withouy boubt that it is his baton.It may also be of interest to you to know that I made a six figure offer to the museum for it's purchase.(offer refused!).....I would respectfully suggest that you don't simply rely on and accept all that you read on this subject, as it is not helpfull to make statements of fact based on old and long defunked information. (It makes you look stupid!)

quote:

Originally posted by Howard Julian-Harvey:
Denny....You are talking utter rubbish.I have inspected Donits baton in Shropshire and can confirm withouy boubt that it is his baton.It may also be of interest to you to know that I made a six figure offer to the museum for it's purchase.(offer refused!).....I would respectfully suggest that you don't simply rely on and accept all that you read on this subject, as it is not helpfull to make statements of fact based on old and long defunked information. (It makes you look stupid!)

Am I?
Perheps you should READ and STUDY a LOT MORE instead of making coments without ANY PROVE WHATSOEVER!
The above statements is based on a ONE-OF-A-KIND STUDY made by a well known EXPERT who was a senior member to this forum with a beautiful and respected collection. A magnificent research/investigation with hundreds of pictures for graphic study is a part of it.
Dr. Doyle had access to the real baton, during the MAX in 1994, for a long time.
Did you really offered 6 thousend dollars for that baton? Who is stupid now?
I am surprised that you can write!
But please, SHOW PROVE to what are you saying!
Denny.

P.S. That sounds a bit ruder than I would like, but you get the general idea!....Cheers.

You are WRONG!

Is that so?
Well according to this forum COC YOU HAVE TO PROVE! There's no way you can say "what you think" and that "I am wrong" without any prove!
YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THE REAL VALUE OF ONE OF THOSE!
In fact you know nothing, and you have nothing usefull to add to this thread.
In another thread about GFM batons you were asking for "opinions" on Charles Snyder's baton for sale. What kind of knowledge do you have?
Denny.

Why not tone it down a bit,no winners, no loosers.
No more name calling.
Please

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Jim W:
Why not tone it down a bit,no winners, no loosers.
No more name calling.
Please

Jim

Hello Jim.
I did not called names on anybody.
I only recalled a great thread, long deleted, on this subject, FULL of elegant proves.
Because of this, I wrote an e-mail to Mr.Doyle, and he is telling me that he has all posts to that thread and he will post that all again in another forum.
Thank you.
Denny.

I have no dog in this fight, but I do recall a thread such as Denny is referring to and it was far more scholarly than what is being offered here now. Simply offering a museum money and having them turn it down hardly qualifies for more than an interesting side note. The question might be asked, did they turn it down because they knew it was a fake and did not want the fraud exposed? There are obviously numerous probabilities but again, nothing has been provided in the form of proof one-way-or-the-other and with the constant, ongoing, loss of valuable threads from this site it is becoming distinctly less useful or important to serious researchers and collectors . . . but we've bantered that one around more than once and nothing has changed! Sorry if I have muddied this thread with my frustration! ~ Ian

Denny, on which forum will Dr Doyle be posting the thread?

Regards
Russ

Denny,...Lets keep this nice and simple for you......Firstly, my thread about sytners baton was to stimulate a debate on baton's and not a beleif that the example offered by him was anthing other than the usual rubbish he advertises.......Secondly, the fraise "six figures" means an amount containing six didgets ie $100-000+ (the amount I offered for Donits baton)......Thirdly, the baton that appeared at the Max in the 90s was the jewlers prototype that was offered for Hitlers approval,before the origonal example (now in Shropshire) was made....And finaly, If you want to see the genuine article, why don't you take a little trip to Shropshire?....PS, I have been collecting now for about 30 years and have a decent collection and I don't make serious offers for copy/repro rubbish!

Interesting thread and one that led me to another website that makes interesting reading and also has Aylson as a contributor.

It should clear up any doubts.....at least in my mind .

Curator of Shropshire museum

p.s Is it just me or does that picture look doctored to anyone else?

Hmmmm! Denny's gon all quiet!

hi,,,no it's not just you Degens,,pic looks doctored to me also,,,wtf???

GUYS TAKE IT EASY.AS LONG AS WE BREATH THEIR SHALL BE CONTROVERSY.NO NEED FOR THE NASTY STUFF.I WILL NEVER OWN A REAL BATON AS MOST OF US WONT.THEIR IS A WITTMANN TAPE THAT HAS DONITZ'S BATON ON IT.IS THAT REAL???THEIR ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS IN LIFE.IF YOU ARE IN GOOD HEALTH THATS IMPORTANT!!CARL

I will post now the full e-mail from Mr. Doyle.

Sinalizar esta mensagemRe: Dönitz BatonDomingo, 23 de Novembro de 2008 13:11
De: "Aylson Doyle" Adicionar remetente à lista de contatos Para: Dennys Jorret

Hello Dennys,
Thanks again for your E-Mail.
Yes, I am following that topic, still.
About my research and investigation to what is concerning to the Cermonial Baton belonging to KM-Grossadmiral Karl Dönitz I can say the following.
1- I have been in contact personally by several E-Mails with the son of US PFC William A. Lilley, in which he told me he has on his possession, among other things, a copy of the Police report about the theft of the item as well as other decorations belonging to Admiral Dönitz still with his family.
2- I personally inspected the baton at the MAX Show in the year of 1994 and long talked to the owner including several phone calls from my home in my country to his home in Savannah, GA.
Based on my expertise and deep study of both batons (The MAX and the one in Shropshire) I am 100% convinced that the baton at the MAX was the only one original Dönitz ever really used.
John Angolia, famous writer of Third Reich Militaria, told me in 1994 and again in 1995 that talking to Dönitz himself in late 70s, Dönitz asked him a couple of times, the whereabouts of his baton, and according to Dönitz himself, the baton was his prize possession. It is an undisputed fact that Dönitz used his baton even in occasions he really didn't had to! Therefore it is correct to say that his baton saw heavy use, more than any other baton.
The baton at Shropshire shows no sign of use and the result is that the aging process is obviously wrong, especially on more fragile areas of the baton, like the dark blue velvet for example, which on this case is absolute new.
Not only that, the golden insignias shows no trace of use or oxidation as a result of the time envolved or even the acid reaction of our hands touching the item, which is impossible not to show after all the handling trough over almost 70 years! Even non issued, mint, Eagle Orders often shows signs of the "fading gold" as a result of aging.
Contrary to all this, the baton at the MAX, shows all signs of a heavy use, as it should be, and the quality and construction is what to expect to an item with this importance and magnitude!
Only by that report, that "theory" about the MAX baton, as I like to call, saying that it was a prototype that was shown to Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler for "approval" is nothing but an irresponsible especulation to say at least.
How can a prototype can show real signs of heavy use and the "actual, real baton" remains "brand new"?
Can you see the discrepancy? Besides, this allegation of the "prototype theory" has absolute no support as no one have shown, yet, any original documents, ever! And to what purpose had Reichskanzler Hitler to hold this prototype for so long? It doesn't make any sense!
Aside of that, the picture of PFC Lilley holding his baton, speaks a million words, and it is, by all means, a strong, hard evidence! The picture was "doctored"? Prove that!
It does not matter if this "expert" at GDC offered his six figures money, you are right Dennys, he is so far from the true price that six thousend US Dollars or six hundred thousend, makes no difference. He should have said something about 7 figures. At this point I may believe on him, however since he's got a million dollar collection, he should post some pictures and share with us some of his beautiful items! Can you do that for us Mr.Harvey, please? ...

...
At the end I think Bushido, one true expert, is probably right and they are just trying to avoid a big fraud to be exposed and the inevitable scandal. Too late my dear collegues, as already said by Seiler, this have already been published. This have happened before in many other areas of the true history of the WW2 and with Nazi Germany. The war on Vietnam is another example and recently the lies on Irak. Why stop there?
Anyway, that's all for now, I will save the details to a new topic on this issue in another forum as this is my story.
As to what you should say, I fully authorize you, to post this entire text as is, at GDC.
Although the text itself is important, it wont postpone the demise of this forum, once, may be a good forum, but now a true insult to any human beeing. They are trying to rebuild, in vain, their reputation, since they were all exposed in a big scandal. No wonder they are deleting almost everything.. Still I do miss several friends and true experts I made there, even those I disagree many times, real battles with brilliant arguments on both sides, but that was another time.
Do not worry about it Denny, this is not a problem, and as the matter of fact, I think God that, this time, you did not ask me again to sell my Hitler little statue!
I am sorry I missed you in Paris couple of weeks ago, and I would like to thank you for your comments about my work and myself.
Always nice hearing from you!
My Very Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle"

My original e-mail;

FROM: Dennys Jorret
SUBJECT: Dönitz Baton
TO: aylsondoyle@yahoo.com.br
DATE: Sábado, 22 de Novembro de 2008, 21:32

Dear Doyle,
As I told you before, the discussian at GDC keeps going on, now with members making comments without any prove whatsoever.One member asked me where or on wich forum are you going to post your brilliant article about Dönitz Baton. What should I say?Is it going to be the exact same article once on GDC?Are you still following the discussion?By the way, what happened in Austria?I am sorry if I am bringing to you any trouble with this forum thing.
Best wishes.
Denny

OK, lets try and address a few observations from yet another "expert?"....1st,Just because an item exhibits wear means nothing other than it has either been well handled or artificially aged (their's plenty of repro out there with patina!)....2, Donits had two batons one he used on a regular basis, this was his service baton and it doubled as a telescope, it had an embossed blue leather outer cover (well worn) with eagles/swaz and anchor motife's and was very roughly similar in design to his parade baton. (in Shropshire) This item can be seen in many of the reference books out there on the subject and is well known.(sold by Wallis and Wallis early 70s).....3rd, Donits parade baton (the one in Shropshire) was used sparingly by him and was only seen at major military events and official meetings with Hitler etc(often with gloves on!)....4th, There exists a number of well known examples of field martials batons that are accepted as genuine, both in museums and private hands. Some are in pristine condition (with no oxidisation of gold components?) and others are rather worn. There also exists a number of well made copy batons that also display ageing (and oxidation!) because they have been well handled? This dose not make them genuine!....As for proof, there are very few nazi items that come with indisputable proof, and we must all question what we see, but this should not be based on the views of some self appointed expert armed with a few well meant but faded and distorted recollections, but our own educated knowlege and gut feeling.....When ever I purchase an item, even if it cost's very little, I always ensure it conforms to every known detail and reference, and that my gut feeling is right. When I made the not inconsiderable offer for the Donits baton it was a genuine one and it conformed to all the criterior expressed above! I know the baton in shropshire is genuine and I don't give a "jot' what any self appointed "expert" thinks. But most of all, I, unlike anyone else, have put their money were their mouth is!...And finnaly for your information, I have shared views of my (private) collection with several well known collectors who are both members of this forum and others who are not.

The picture of PFC Lilley holding the baton may very well be correct but the fact that both characters have been superimposed onto that background automatically raises concerns in my eyes.
My knowledge of these batons is virtually zero and I bow to the knowledge of the more experienced members regarding the intricicies and detailing, however Photoshop is my forte' and that picture aint right!

Degens you are of course correct in saying that the picture has been doctured. And I'm sure you won't mind me saying that it is very obvious that this is the case. And yet Dennys amature "expert" friend, Mr Doyle, has asked us to prove it! Now quite frankly why would anyone rely on the judgment and oppinions of this individual if he to can't see what just about every one else who has expresed an oppinion on this matter can blatantly see to be the case?....It is such a great shame that even unique and important items with provenance such as the Donits baton that resides in Shropshire should be questioned by these amatures. Because there are those gullable individuals like Denny who know nothing of consequence about the subject and who seem to want to believe anything that contradicts the accepted known facts...It's the same sort of mentalty shown in people who think the twin towers was all a govenment conspiricy and the moon landings didn't happen etc etc

Wow! Great discussion. This piece ---Whatever it is, is at the Hamburg Maritime Museum. They have 9 floors of interesting items from Maritime Germany. I think if any of you are in town it is worth a visit.

Adding a couple more Batons from Germany. Prinz Heinrich

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another

just to throw reason to the wind,,,view the link on Hermann Gorings Baton that i posted pics on last Sepember,2008..http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4730971462/m/3930095075?r=3930095075#3930095075

Great pictures, nice to see!

a bit larger