UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum Lets see some black!

more of inside

Tag on one of my visors

Thanks to colleagues for their little photo essays. Derek Chapman's black kepi has to be the single most extraordinary piece of SS headwear I have ever seen. The opera cap mechanism is astonishing and the pre-1929 cap badges are likewise staggering, to say nothing of the leather peak. Shea has a NSDAP kepi with such a leather peak, as well, but such a brown piece is a shadow of this kepi. The early caps were better made than the later kind, I think. The Lieferungsmuetzen from Wille and Mueller from Vondrack are nice adjuncts to the caps I have illustrated. For the novice seeker of knowledge, this file contains special material of great rarity and importance. And, it is not choked with all these infuriating fakes which burn out one's soul. Viel Sammlerglueck!

I agree with Donald!

If we can get John Pepera and Bob Coleman
to show some more goodies, we would really
be in the chips of learning!

One thing is for sure these original SS visors
early, late, officer ,Nco or kepis sure are
not going to get easier to get in future.

Peter Jenkins has some beautys and shame he no longer posts!

Well I hope to post some more for learning
later!


PVON

A terrific expose on SS headgear. Since this thread is a "Jack of all Black", so to speak, I have a question on a specialist sleeve diamond. Some time ago, this one was discussed, and the input that I recieved, was Pharmasist as well as Dentist. I can't find a reference to it in Lumsden's Allg SS...

Lumsden posts on the Wehrmact forum. Do ask him yourself. He is always ready with answers and quite engaged with all of us, to his credit. I assume it must be an Apotheker. I do not think this badge is in Mollo, either.

Thanke Donald...

Johann,
This is the early diamond for a pharmacist, as Donald says it is an "A" for Apotheker. Dentists wore a different diamond with a gothic "Z" for Zahnaerzte der SS.
Derek

Terrific Derek. The explanation of the character helps. (I honestly saw no "a" until you pointed it out). Let's see who get's it on the other forum. Again, many thanks...

At the risk of being didactic, the seeker of truth has to learn the alphabet of the time, Gothic script, Fraktur, &c. since these ethno-Voelkisch attributes were very important. Apothecaries, that is, druggists were socially prominent in German society, as well doctors, and had likely been rendered declasse by the depression. Apotheker were also an important rank in the Beamten des dt. Heeres, as well. Apotheker are an important feature of German life, today, since you can go to them (they are everywhere) and tell the nice woman behind the counter in the white smock what is wrong with you, and, nine times out of ten, they will give you some Medikamente that are quite helpful. 100% better than the drug stores hereabouts, I'll tell you. There is also much sensible homeopathy there, too. Of course, it is hard to get aspirin in Germany, on the other hand, I have to admit. Being married to a European I am constantly reminded of these social differences between life on the Rhein,Weser, Elbe, Spree Havel and Danube versus the state of Schwarzenegger and Google.

Here is another sleeve and cuff, of interest. This uniform is pictured in the Johnson war swag book of recent publication.

This is the collar patch of the same uniform.

A similar uniform to this caused a controversy here a couple of years ago. My colleagues and I believed that the combination of Abschnitt designation with the normal Standarte designation, in this case, Karlsbad/Saaz, was an Unding. However, this tunic was the swag from a "motel buy" and unamended since 1945 save the addition of a rank badge. I presume the roman # III designates the staff of the 3d Sturmbann, which did exist, and was headquartered in Elbogen, Falkenau, or Graslitz in the vicinity of Saaz and Karlsbad, i.e. western Bohemia. This 101 Standarte had been first HQ'ed at Saaz and later in Karlsbad. I should also note that the secondary literature contains no reference to this custom of designating the Sturmbann HQ via roman #'s, yet numerous authentic examples of this practice exist in collections. Bob Coleman has an Essen uniform for the "Weitzel" Standarte with such a cuff title found in a California garage sale... Maybe colleague Chapman has evidence of same in his encyclopaedia of SS Befehlsblaetter....

Here is the Verwaltungsamt SS stamp in this uniform. Whether its wearer started out as enlisted ranks or was commissioned in the wake of the annexation of the Sudetenland, no man can say.... the uniform is of the issue type. It is anything other than tailored, and rendered in the simple woolen cloth (Einheitstuch...) typical of black uniforms of the era of say 1936-1939. What did it see in its time?

It has this kind of RZM tag...this actual tag did I save from another uniform, but it is the same Hersteller, though the serial # is somewhat different. Remnants of the violent 20th century.

Donald, what an outstanding nice tunic.
There is nothing wrong with such a cuffband on such an Allg. tunic. And my point of view is also that this is a stuff of the 3. Sturmbann. Even with this officer rank it makes sence.
Some like the word some not, but this is a wonderful "textbook" tunic.

All VERY neat items! Here is a stupid question.... Since there was about 300,000 SS men are the SS items truly "rare" or just in high demand thus driving prices up?

For my view the word "rar" is for certain SS items underrated, especially for the real black items like Derek's early SS cap, or Donalds SS officer visors, or even black untouched Allg.VT/VT tunics. Such things are not often offered anywhere and seldom to find on the puplic market.

quote:

Originally posted by VonRader:
All VERY neat items! Here is a stupid question.... Since there was about 300,000 SS men are the SS items truly "rare" or just in high demand thus driving prices up?

They are rare and in demand. The kepi of Derek Chapman mocks all description as concerns rarity. The bulk of SS black regalia was destroyed by: a.) the effects of the war economy. i.e. recycling; b.) the war itself, i.e. the bombing of most German cities; c.) denazification and the aftermath of the war; d.) the passage of time. Don't kid yourself, this material is very hard to find. The daggers and the enlisted black caps may be somewhat more easily found, but not really. The authentic SS regalia was never common in my forty years of experience. Regalia of the army and other civil organizations was more easily obtained. Today one has a world market in which much more surfaces and collectors are knitted together by modern communications, but look at the German auction house catalogs or the old Manion's catalogs all of the 1970s, when the latter had real stuff, and you can generalize then... I do not put much stock in regalia plucked from veterans' attic and 'motel buys' &c., but this Karlsbad/Saaz tunic was apparently just such a find. Here in the Bay Area such a thing is next to unheard of, that is, the discovery of authentic black regalia from some virginal source. The regalia of these Sudeten units must have been destroyed enmasse in Czechoslovakia of the time. This piece was gotten by some US unit in the western Bohemia on the route of march to Pilzen. How common was such an occurence? Other of this black material ended up in Czech film studios and military museums. Some of it went into the hands of Czech collectors. But how much endured to come down to the collector cosmos of now? Thus, it does not do to suggest that there were some 240,000 SS in 1939 and each likely had at least one or two uniforms, and thus, they are other than rare. I assure you that they are rare and they are in demand because of the market loyalty of succeeding generations to the brand of the second world war.

I should also say that the Chapman kepi with the leather peak is the sort of thing one might encounter once in thirty or forty years---if at all. The black enlisted Lieferungsmuetzen are to be found multiple times per year, but seldom in perfect shape and now at skyrocketing prices. The black officer's caps appear perhaps once a year, or not, and are in constant demand. As Robert H says, they do not generally come to the public setting for sale, but are handed around within a certain circle. The black officer caps are more rare than the grey, and have more appeal because of all the silly stamps and tags. Integral black uniforms have become more difficult to find, in fact, but they do appear each year. Look at all the sites for comparison, that is, the good sites, the reliable ones which have authentic material and fair terms of use. Rather than the search for the holy grail in veteran's attics and motel buys, one does well to seek out the old collectors who have chosen to liquidate their woolens.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert H.:
Donald, what an outstanding nice tunic.
There is nothing wrong with such a cuffband on such an Allg. tunic. And my point of view is also that this is a stuff of the 3. Sturmbann. Even with this officer rank it makes sence.
Some like the word some not, but this is a wonderful "textbook" tunic.

Thank you, lieber Kollege, coming from such an educated and discerning figure in the field, this is high praise indeed. Vielen Dank!

Here is the Saaz/Karlsbad Montur in its totality. It passed through Shea before it found its final home.

This is the cap, also in the Wilkins book...

Another view, with the Kampfbinde and various decorations. This man received the war service cross 1st class. For what? When? His initials: E.W.

Here another black uniform, formerly of the magisterial collections of colleagues near and dear to this writer, now in another collection of note. Hagen/Westfalen is the Standarte here illustrated, east of Cologne. This uniform has a colored cuff title, the image of which is too large for me to append here.

Another image of same. Here the cuff title of the pre-1938 pattern is visible. A very handsome piece. This one has no RZM markings, no VA issue stamps, save a Bevo VA/SS tag on the shoulder board, and likely on the reverse of the insignia, but only a lunatic would look for such tags....

Donald,

Very nice catalogue of images you have shown us. Please keep them coming. You know, I recognize a few of those items . Here is an image from my collection which was taken some years ago. The Standarte 81 uniform and band equipment now reside in other collections. I have always enjoyed the look of the black SS uniform...especially with a helmet.

Cheers,

Hi Darryl it may not appreciate as fast as a helmet but it still would have been a nice ensemble to have held on to. I am sure that you feel the pain of separation. cheers, Ryan

Donald, I am really deep impressed with your two tunics. Darryl, I know well how it feels to let soemthing like this go.
Some black tunic pictures, one of them is also gone.

Germania

Parade

quote:

Originally posted by darryl:
Donald,

Very nice catalogue of images you have shown us. Please keep them coming. You know, I recognize a few of those items . Here is an image from my collection which was taken some years ago. The Standarte 81 uniform and band equipment now reside in other collections. I have always enjoyed the look of the black SS uniform...especially with a helmet.

Cheers,

Colleague Darryl, thank you. We are grateful for your skill as a collector, and your collection of helmets has changed the field of III. Reich regalia. The material I have examined is sort of garden variety stuff, not the bagged clothes of some Ritterkreuztraeger or cunning mass murderer, pi pa po, as found in some locales, but it is authentic and represents the bulk of this regalia, such as it is and which is seldom seen. I was lucky enough to see it briefly amid the endless migration of fetid black woolens. Jhnen alles gute!

quote:

Originally posted by Robert H.:
Donald, I am really deep impressed with your two tunics. Darryl, I know well how it feels to let soemthing like this go.
Some black tunic pictures, one of them is also gone.

Dear Colleague, thank you. Things on these fora had sort of collapsed (fake collar patches and idiot name calling...), and we all do well to set a high standard and provide an example to others of what this field should be, nicht wahr? Your material is also wonderful. Jhnen alles gute!

I love this stuff! Here is the only SS cloth itmem I own, just bought if off a forum member.

Any good reference books about understanding orignal SS cloth itmes???

2

Pretty darn good piece for the only one you own! Good deal too.

Excuse the poor photo but that was the way cheap cameras worked back in the late 1980s . Here is an Allgemeine-SS tunic to a member of the #6 signals unit (Nachtrichtenstandarte) based in Hamburg. This was an out-of-the-woodwork Steve Wolfe purchase back in about 1985 or so.

Cheers,

A slightly better photo taken a little later of the same tunic.

Cheers,

Detail of the underside of the cuff-title. The title had brown edges and the SS/RZM tag was left showing...strange but cool!

Cheers,

Here is another tunic I once owned. I sold it to Arthur Hayes and he featured it in his "SS Uniforms and Accoutrements" book years later. This was a high quality tunic tailored for a Sturmbannfuhrer assigned to the Administrative staff of Oberabschnitt "Fulda-Werra".

Cheers,