UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum 2nd Railway Dagger Info Request Please!

Fellow collectors, I am in the market for a 2nd model RR dagger, What are the facts? I know there are unmarked versions and Eick types.

What are the "most desirable" Is it the steel scabbards that have been silverplated?

What are the price ranges?

SR. Collectors please help!

VonRader, Miller Militaria recently sold a minty Max Weyersburg 2nd Model RR for $5,000. You can see some good photos on his website @ www.millermilitaria.com. Look under the my personal collection banner.

The Eickhorn with the flaw in the crossguard to the right of the wheel is the most accepted. There are marked and unmarked examples but if the flaw is missing, they'll be hard to move later.

VonRader, tehre are also to mention the H�RSTER ones which (it is said) don�t have the normal HH logo but the two line written H�rster Solingen along the blade.
IMO the most rare and desirable (because beeing an early one) one is the one from EICKHORN with the aluminium scabbard, silver plated BUT only in best, undented condition. It is narly impossible to find them because the scabbards were too fragile.
Followed by the EICKHORN steel scabbard silver plated.
Naturally with all proper accouterments, at the best a later one with the sqare hangers. There is now one offered for (I think to remember) about 8-9 GTs ......
Just my thoughts.

My post and Vern�s have crossed.
Sorry I once again have to stand against the "flaw myth"! It�s only a rule for the very unexperienced ones. Careful inspection and to know what to look for easily detects the real one wether there is a flaw or is not. Or WAS a flaw as sometimes the flaw was period camouflaged by a ciseleur during the manufacturing process before the plating process. Also easily to detect when you ever have reognized it and know what to look for.

Vern, very nice and desirable daggers, is this an all aluminium one in the middle? Would think so because of the scabbard bands but I am aware that there was also a small number manufactured already with steel scabbards but still with these certain scabbard bands.

My early all aluminium.

My square hangers, go with a later one (steel scabbard with silver plating)

Yes, it's the early aluminum one. I mentioned the "flaw theory" because the Eickhorn fakes don't have it It's an easy to spot feature as oposed to measuring the grip and tang (fakes are shorter or have the wrong number of twists to the grip, and can have one piece pommels). Advanced collectors go for the unusual marked and unmarked pieces. But they are hard to sell without strong providence.

HELMUT WEITZE GERMANY HAS ONE FOR SALE

Here's a photo of the set. The portapee is a Johnson

Here�s a picture of my all Alluminium Eickhorn Railway dagger�s. One has an postwar portopee. The hanger is mint. I look a long time for a good second hanger but I found still none.

mai65, very fine examples of a scarce dagger. Can you show us a detailed pic of the lower one�s portepee?
Thank you in advance.

wotan, I have only these pictures of the daggers. I will try some more with my camera in the coming week.

WHAAAAAAAT? Its just beginning to sink in. $5000 for a rinkidink Railway dagger? Thats totally insane, not only that, its totally indecent. This hobby is turning into a folly for multi-millionaires.

Thank you mai65, I just have asked because I am somehow worried about the potepees. The top one seems to be a currently Johnson one. But the lower one??? I have not seen a period rrpp one with flecked crown. On the other side stem and all other parts look correct and imo show some decent traces of wear. May I ask - where is it from? Did it come with the dagger?

wotan, yes the top portepee is a Johnson. The lower one comes with the dagger and was never changed. This dagger is from Johnson complete with the hanger.

Here is my Bahnschutz riggens. The dagger is a Hoerster with a steel scabbard. The hanger is just a cheapo plain jane square buckle type that used to be free with the purchase of 8 gallons of gasoline or diesel at the local gas station back in the good old days.

Mvogel, tell you what.... these dagger prices give me gas! They also make my wife mad when I buy one! VERY nice daggers all!

I was fairly lucky with Rails. I have the Eickhorn with the silvered aluminum formed throat scabbard from a vetern in St. Louis years ago and it has the knot and oval buckle hangers.
Then I have a mint Horster with the square buckles that came from Terre Haute, IN. in the 1980s.
Both are nice.
The unmarked ones are Horsters.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron: To your knowledge are there any Hoerster Bahnschutz daggers with the aluminum scabbard? I have never seen any myself or heard of any.

I have never seen an aluminum Horster. Also, if you compare Eickhorns with known Horsters, there are differences that make the unmarked Rails definately Horsters.
I believe that Horster marked their Rails only for a short period of time and no other dagger made by Horster had the same TM as on their Rails.
Then they quit marking Rails, hence the plain ones. The marked Horster is extremely rare.
Just my observations over the years.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Although wear is no guarantee of authenticity, I believe this portapee to be period

Paul

Hi Everyone,this one looks real ,but not in the best condition,Regards nats
http://www.militaria321.com/auction_details.cfm?auctionID=5190727

http://members.lycos.nl/stantheman/

Well I found one I liked and now its in my collection! Now I need the hangers.

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Great daggers guys !
Now, you all need a Bahnschutzpolizei Officer Visor cap to go along with it.

While a little late for this discussion, Here is my 2nd model. this is the eickhorn with the aluminum scabbard that was opened with the dagger. (I believe same as Wotan's). The original silver plating has "krinkled", and the original portepee has a frey spot, but it came this way, turn key, from the vet's widow.

Jim

In my opinion any real, out of the period dagger/accoutrement in collectible condition is much much more desirable than any faked one. Also only the true ones keep any investment potential (I for myself do NOT collect for investment)and history in themselve, therefore the price.
I never would add any copies, those "potjemkin�s villages", those "appear more than you are" to my collection. I like those gaps in my collection, there have to be aims - at least for me.
Jim, a very nice dagger you have shown with all proper accouterments, pure history, I love those early all aluminium ones.
Just my thoughts.

5k ?? Is this the same dagger that Lakeside trader is selling for $ 3100 ?

It would cost 5k for a mint one. Tom Wittmann sold Mint steel/silver plated one for 5K w/ an orignal knot ($800-$900.00 value). The one being sold by Paul has some condition problems,(missing plating, blunted tip, dented scabbard but is a nice example and it is w/o the knot.

Railway Daggers, especially the 2nd Model, are difficult to price. Many variables, Eickhorn silver, formed throat, brushed steel variations, Horster marked and unmarked, knots, hangers, etc. make it difficult and you could almost collect only this model and its variants.
In the Eickhorn silver ones, a truly mint example should command a premium price-you just don't find them.
Overall, I would say this dagger is under-priced on today's market, but that's just my opinion.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I agree w/ Ron, there are so many variables that one could write a nice paper about these daggers. I also agree due to the ture rarity of these daggers they are underpriced. Expecially when you consider common ex++ to NM early SS are priced in the same range.

Eric Nice Score!
Wotan, is it possible to see the reverse of your scabbard to include the throat? A question for someone with a formed throat scabbard, are these all magnetic?

my dagger has a steel based scabbard and aluminum fittings.

The Eickhorn formed throat scabbard is a silver plated aluminum affair and it would be hard to be magnetic, however, the runners in the scabbard could give you a false magnetic feel as well as the lead based weight in the bottom of the scabbard (I believe there is one, but can't check as my dagger it is in the safety deposit box in the bank right now).
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

That helps Ron, would it be correct to say:
1-All formed throat RR scabbards are aluminum based.
2-RR scabbards with a separate throats can be either steel or aluminum based.
And lastly
3-All hilt components are always aluminum based.
Thanks

Here is a photo of the "formed" throat.

Jim

lakesidetrader, sorry this thread got somehow out of my view. Now I see Jim Wallace already has shown the built-in scabbard mouth. I add a pic of this certain scabbard from the side. There are no screws on this kind of scabbard. Reverse does look exactly the same like this obverse.
To your points, I think 1 is correct. 2 is incorrect (imo), I have never seen an aluminium based one with separate throat.
Ad 3, I dont� know for sure, all I have handed were of the leightweight configuration but perhaps there was also a pot metal varation produced?

This is mine. How does it look?

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Vesuvio, is that magnetic?

Yes, the scabbard is all magnetic. Is it correct?

quote:

Originally posted by wotan:
VonRader, tehre are also to mention the H�RSTER ones which (it is said) don�t have the normal HH logo but the two line written H�rster Solingen along the blade.
IMO the most rare and desirable (because beeing an early one) one is the one from EICKHORN with the aluminium scabbard, silver plated BUT only in best, undented condition. It is narly impossible to find them because the scabbards were too fragile.
Followed by the EICKHORN steel scabbard silver plated.
Naturally with all proper accouterments, at the best a later one with the sqare hangers. There is now one offered for (I think to remember) about 8-9 GTs ......
Just my thoughts.

Wotan and all,

Here's my Eickhorn Bahnschutzpolizei dagger and was wondering if someone could tell me if they thought that the scabbard was the aluminum or steel silver plated type ?
I just can't tell the difference.
Thanks all !

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Patrice, what I can see from your wonderful detailed pics your scabbard sems to be a steel one with aluminium type plating. In earlier times I thought this was the look of plain steel simply brushed, but I have seen daggers where this certain plating has peeled off. As this certain plating does not seem to patinate at any time I do not blieve it is silver plating but as said kind of aluminium plating.
The heavily silver plated rrpp steel scabbards do have a distinct look.

Thank you Wotan for your reply.
Would you know if this type of finish is considered to be early, mid or late period ?
If I'm not mistaken, the late period type only has the throatless scabbard ?

Danke !

My thoughts on the evolution, er, or should I say de-evolution of this dagger is:
Early- Silver with steel based scabbard.
Mid-Period- "Aluminum" plated scabbard, as Wotan suggests. (BTW Wotan I have never seen an aluminum scabbard based RR with a screw securing the throat, so I agree with your reply above.
Late- Finally solid aluminum scabbard with a formed throat.

Vesuvio, I can make no judgement based on what I see. I do not like looking at a single component and making a call. Can we see the whole thing? From the scabbard alone, the finish looks rough, maybe replated, or wire brushed? The original finish was either a brushed aluminum look,(like Pat's) or early silver washed. Compare the scabbard tip to Pat's, your's is far "blunter". What are your liners made of?

Lakeside, I hate to disagree, but due to numbers I have to disagree. I believe the aluminum ones came first and, due to the failure to hold up, the change to the steel scabbard occurred.
Aluminum became the metal of choice in the late 1930s, as is seen in Army, Luftwaffe and NSFK. Then the war caused changes as the metal became essential for the aircraft industry. This is why se see the change back to steel, especially in the army and Luft daggers.
Not every company used aluminum and you never see a late Eickhorn Army that isn't steel or the zinc junk.
What ever was used on the scabbards of the Railways was far superior to any other dagger scabbard finish of the period. IF it had been the first one used, they would have never changed to aluminum.
I also feel that the formed throat piece was much harder to manufacture and this is why it was used for such a short time and changed over the the added throat. Both silver plated, complaints on how these were holding up in the field caused the switch.
Also, the steel scabbards are found in mint condition much more often than the aluminum based ones (in fact I have yet to see a mint aluminum base formed throat piece IMO).
So if these were the later ones, why don't you see them in mint condition and where are the parts?
All the left over parts for these that I have seen over the years were the steel scabbard types (Johnson had some bodies and tips early on).
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I must agree with Ron on this.

I have always had the understanding that the Aluminum scabbard with formed scabbard mouth was the first model produced. Due to problems with using the blade to open the throat, they then changed to the other models.

I was told this years ago but do not have any documentation.

I would like to hear from Wotan on this.

Jim

Really interesting Guys. I'm not stuck in my opinion, rather I'm puttiing some things out there to stimilate some discussion. There is little written on these and much of this is "passed on" by word of mouth. Thanks, learned something today!

I'm really fascinated by the Bahnschutzpolizei organization and I just which that there was a reference book on the subject.
You can't hardly find any pictures on this organization and no english reference books either, which makes the subject almost "mystic".
I believe that it was the smallest paramilitary group during the Third Reich era and that Himmler tried to get it incorporated within the SS organization, which surprisingly enought never succeeded in doing so.
Well, it only proves that were are not at the end of the road yet, as there is still so much more to learn about our hobby, the Bahnshutz being the best example and along with the NAPOLA ( my second favorite organization ).
Can't wait for Ron's book to come out.

To my best knowledge there is question about this, Ron is totally right.

Lakesidetrader, the evolution of the EICKHORN dagger is, concerning the scabbards: 1. aluminium heavy silver plated with formed throat; 2. steel heavily silver plated frosted look (when untouched) with separate throat; 3. steel with brushed aluminium look plating and with separate thoat. The reason for the change from aluminium to steel is like Ron said. The change of plating for sure a question of costs.

BTW you can see exactly the same change of scabbard matrial (aluminium to steel) with the HJleader�s dagger. This certain dagger simply lacks the third variant, that one with the brushed aluminium look.