UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Need help on NCO triple etched sword by Carl Eickhorn

Dear all,

I intend to purchase this NCO triple etched sword by Carl Eickhorn.
The blade is in mint conition and has the words "Gott mit uns" this declaration is surrounded with deluxe oak leafing. The ricasso side of the blade features a panel showing a pile of war implements, featuring crossed cannon in the center. The ending panel features a Prussian style, closed winged eagle over a standard. The reverse of the blade has a raised-out scene of a cannon and caisson being pulled by six horses.

This blade is stamped on the reverse ricasso with a small double-ovaled squirrel trademark. The circles has the name, "Carl Eickhorn, Solingen". Inside is a squirrel trademark which has a serrated tail.

2 questions to ask:-

1) Since there arent any swastica on this sword, does it mean it is imperial and not third reich ??

2) Could someone who has the same sword etching by Carl Eickhorn , to please post their pictures to compare ??


Any help would be grealy appreciated. Thank You !!

Cheers,
Ibrahim,
Singapore.

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I dont have one exactly like yours, (with the Gott Mitt Uns) , but your blade etching appears to be a typical Eickhorn. Can you describe the trademark? That would be one way to determine the date of manufacture. Joe S

The small double-ovaled squirrel trademark should mean it was made 34-35 time frame. A good pix would confirm this.

Interesting sword... it appears that the entire blade and hilt are gilded. I have a similar piece that is definitely an Imperial era sword. It is also engraved with completely gilded and am aware of a couple of others.

Hi again everyone,

The sword finally arrived !!
Here are more pictures.
I believe that it was made in 1933-35(Early Third Reich), based on the Carl Eickhorn, Solingen - small double-ovaled squirrel trademark.This one has a serrated tail.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank You !!

Cheers,
Ibrahim,
Singapore.
--------------------
Overall View

Obverse Etched Blade View - picture taken with flash

Obverse Etched Blade View - picture taken with flash.

.Obverse Etched Blade View - picture taken with flash.

Reverse Etched Blade View - picture taken with flash

Reverse Etched Blade View - picture taken with flash.

.Reverse Etched Blade View - picture taken with flash.

Maker marked Carl Eickhorn - picture taken without flash

Obverse Etched Blade View - picture taken without flash

Obverse Etched Blade View - picture taken without flash.

.Obverse Etched Blade View - picture taken without flash.

Spine Etched Blade View - picture taken without flash

Spine Etched Blade View - picture taken without flash.

Reverse Etched Blade View - picture taken without flash

Reverse Etched Blade View - picture taken without flash.

.Reverse Etched Blade View - picture taken without flash.

Scabbard View - picture taken without flash

Scabbard View - picture taken without flash.

I like this blade thanks for posting it.

ibrahim,

A very nice NCO sword. From the etching, I would say your sword is from the time of the late Weimar Republic or very early NS Zeit. The eagle appears to be a Reichswehr style since it is uncrowned and has no swastika. Certainly not an Imperial period sword and not a later Nazi period sword either.

I very much like these Reichswehr period swords.

George

Thank you for sharing this beautiful etch with all of us.

I Love This Stuff

Von Ryan

George knows the Weimar era better than I do, but if they followed Imperial era traditions the saber could also be for an enlisted man (Mannschaften) in the horse (mounted) artillery who ordered the extra cost etching.

A very nice example that is not commonly seen. FP

FP,

You are correct as usual. This sword could be worn by either a lower ranking NCO or an enlisted man. It is in fact classified as a Mannschafts-Extra-S�bel. It would have been an expensive sword for an enlisted man.

George

Whether it is a Third Reich saber or not depends on how you define Third Reich sabers. Eickhorn sales literature dated 1935 shows the same trademark with with saber models 1695 and 1693, (each with eagle and swastika motif) as well as the 189. I think it is safe to say that these Weimar/early Third Reich sabers were probably carried right through WWII, and a good many sabers with the swastika in the etching or hilt can be found with this trademark. The etching is more typical of Imperial era but we know the sword pre-dates 1918 by virtue of the trademark. It is very possible that the sword blade was left over from WWI inventory or the etching pattern was contiued because there was no reason to not contunue to use it. Some collectors define "Third Reich saber " to include only items with a swastika, which is ok if that defines what you want to collect. However, a good many Imperial and Weimar swords were used well into the Third Reich. Furthermore, there is substantial photographic evidence of the plain mod 189 saber being carried by high ranking officers, so I dont think we can categorically say it is an enlisted mans or NCO saber only. just my opinion, FWIW. Joe S

Joe,

I don't disagree with your definition of Third Reich sabers. Surely some of these Weimar period swords were worn throughout the war. Some officers also wore their Imperial swords into WWII. Why buy a new one when you have a traditional sword already?

The sword shown is, as you rightly point out, the Eickhorn Nr.189. Eickhorn describes their sword as a "S�bel f�r Manschaften." Specifically, S�bel f�r Manschaften der berittern Truppen des Heeres." It was not intended for officers. The plain hilt sword was also made by Eickhorn as the Nr.40 "Offiziers�bel mit glatter Montur." The officer sword was sold by Eickhorn as a "traditional" sword. The Nr.40 differs from the Nr.189 in that it has a re-enforcement at the juncture of the crossguard and the knucklebow that is not on the enlisted sword.

While it is possible that an officer might have purchased and worn the sword shown by ibrahim it was not designed for them by the manufacturer. Other manufacturers made the same distinction. Here is a similar enlisted example by WKC.

No question about it, the original sales material consistently makes a distinctioin between officer's and EM swords, officer's plain hilted sabers had the gold finish and the little reinforcement on the knuckle-bow and crossguard juncture. However, I believe I have seen many photos of officers with what appear to be plain nickle hilted sabers. With black and white photos is may be difficult to say what is nickle and what is gold, so perhaps what I was seeing were really gold hilted. I will also have to check some of my older catalogs to see if the officer's sabers were always gilded in the early 1900s. Joe S

A quick check of my Imperial era references shows a number of plain hilted sabers which are referred to as "Extra-Sabel". Does anyone know what that would translate to in this context?Thanks! Joe S

Hi Joe S, First you say the sales catalogue material shows the same trademark for 1935 but then you say we know the sword is pre 1918 by virtue of the same trademark. I'm confused, how can we know the sword is pre 1918 by virtue of the trademark if the same trademark is seen used in 1935? JohnJ

Hi John,
Glad you pointed that out. I meant to say we know the saber is POST-1918 by virtue of the trademark. The dating of trademarks is done mainly by circumstantial evidence, the trademark in question does not appear in any printed material until after 1918. I think most collectors are in agreement on that point.
Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for raising the question. Joe s

I believe this is an actual example of the No. 73 model as pictured in the WKC catalogue. It is also a triple etch albiet a simpler one that the one pictured above. This example IMO however predates WW II as it has a real sharkskin grip.
Jim

Joe, �Extra-Sabel" could be (very loosely) translated as �Extra Curricular Sword� meaning it was for wearing off duty. Infantry soldiers wore dress bayonets off duty, mounted troops wore sabers. Third Reich era government issue �Officer�s Model� swords for senior NCO�s were plain. And they were made in brass.

However, senior NCO�s could purchase a lion head model officer�s sword if they wanted to, and some did. If the sword presented here was from the Imperial era there is no question in my mind that it would have been for an enlisted man. And IMO this saber is also for an enlisted man, just more decorative like many of the dress bayonets. FP

One aspect not yet mentioned is that one of the depictions is of a 'spike' helmet (for Artillery) which has a ball on it as opposed to a spike. Since the wearing of that sort of helmet (with rare exception) was over by the end of WW1 that would weigh that it was an Imperial sword. OR, a sword ordered at a later date referring to the owner's prior service during the Imperial time. Just my 2 cents worth.

I probably should also mention the reason why there is so much diversity with the Extras�bel as a group especially in early/Imperial era catalogs. The Extras�bel were for enlisted men (including junior grade NCO�s) as mentioned, and the swords were supposed to be reflective of what they carried as issue weapons (and they were a lot of different model swords during the Imperial era). George can correct me if I�m oversimplifying, but the Weimar Army adopted the Prussian Artilleries�bel n/A (M 1856). Which is a plain polished steel heavy duty combat version of the sword originally under discussion here. Pictured below to the right is a Third Reich version of same for cavalry troops, with the difference being the walnut grip and markings. To its left is the government issue Prussian Artillery Officer�s saber for senior NCO�s.

Looking at some dealer catalogs and other sources I can understand where some collectors might get confused. I have had this same discussion with even some well known dealers myself and the usual reaction was not positive. They either don�t know or don�t tell you that the �Manschaften� sabers were for junior NCO�s and lower enlisted ranks. That from my perspective is unfortunate, but it�s their prerogative to describe an item any way they please.

We are all here to learn, myself included. And if anyone has a different point of view this is a good place to present that perspective. So that any available evidence can be examined, and those participating can gain a better understanding in the collecting areas that they are specializing in. And it is with discussions like this that I think help set the record straight. And provide information to collectors, old and new, so that we all can go out and make our own better informed decisions. FP

Jim,

I think the WKC sword that you show with the etched blade is not the WKC Nr.73 but is either the WKC Nr.3 Offizier-Einheitss�bel or the WKC Nr.29 Glatter Kavallrie Offizier S�bel. Is it nickel or brass? Clearly, the WKC Nr.73 catalog illustrations do not have the re-enforcement on the guard. Niether does the enlisted Eickhorn Nr.189 sword.

FP,

I agree with your analysis. These plain dove hilt swords are often confused by dealers and collectors. It seems clear to me that the Eickhorn sword that was shown originally is an enlisted (or Junior NCO) sword and not an officer sword. A very nice private purchase enlisted sword but designed for non-officer personnel none the less.

George