UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Himmler SS

Do someone have any opinions of this one ?

Just wonder

http://www.craiggottlieb.com/data/inspect.asp?Item=2433...+Himmler+Inscription

What do you wonder ?

Dave

I wonder some opinions of the expert panel here on this forum on this dagger and the service of the seller who having this for sales in this moment Dave.

I notice this dagger was put out on another forum and i just wonder some SS collectors have some opinions for it !
A friend of me asking to make this tread ,since he are after a Himmler.

I put out this tread because this is a forum ..isnt `it ?

Hope someone can reply.

regards Lh 600

LH 600,
I have had one business transaction with Craig and it was excellent. Furthermore, Craig has a reputation for honesty that to my knowledge, has never been questioned in the three years I have read about purchases from him.

LH 600:

I trust Craig and he has never let me down. That doesn't meant that he doesn't make mistakes, but he will rectify them. You must still do your homework.

You will very, very rarely get a great deal from Craig: his prices tend to be at the high end of the market.

But, I also think that Craig has an unfair bad reputation on other forums most of which is undeserved.

John

Craig runs hot and cold. He refused to honor a money back guarantee that caused a lot of problems between us. Although I have done tens of thousands of dollars in business with him, I now would not trust most of the stuff he handles due to the swirling controversy that surrounds a large amount of his "finds". This is not a personal attack but only a personal observation as a long time EX customer.

If you buy that Himmler at that price, I think two things, it is overpriced by about $4,000+ and you better like it because you are not getting your money back...not in your "lifetime". It looks a little too dinged up and blemished to bring that kind of money IMO.

Mark

Agree with Mark,Its just very overpriced considering that there seem to be more on the market every year along with the ones being traded about.Dealers Raise the price by 10-15% every year regardless.a few years ago these were roughly $9500 and Really True mint ones were $12,500,some asked more but didnt see them flying off tables. and that was in 2002 2004.Now the economies in Europe have skyrocketed but Gradually falling so its most likely an increase for their benefit.

many thanks for the information folks.

best Regards Lh 600

"Im looking for a minty SS dagger" with the " ! "after motto Rzm 7/29 or early Jacobs klittermann & Moog.

According to the pics,too many issues for me
therefore way overpriced.
Craig has his moments according to others,BUT,
I,ve never had any issue with him on our transactions.
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Craig's prices are top shelf but I have never had a problem with any transactions that we have done.

I have had a problem with 1 item and thats all I bought...A SILLY problem too.

Well if you thought it was tooooo high $$$ you were all wrong! Its sold!

quote:

Originally posted by Eric "Von" Rader:
Well if you thought it was tooooo high $$$ you were all wrong! Its sold!

Yep, they said that about Paul Hogles $21k Himmler and TJ's offering of the month, June and July, now all sold.
Unfortunately not to me

Nolan

Gentlemen, don't think for a minute that the "asking" price was the actual selling price. I have bought daggers for thousands less than the advertised price.

Just because it MAY be sold (just because it is marked SOLD means little if anything)never ever means that it was sold for the full advertised price. You can make an offer on anything in this hobby...the prices are like the window sticker on a new car...what fool pays it?

Learn, young grasshoppers.

Mark

could be, but Craig does not discount too much. So again..........even if it was discounted 10%

your still looking at almost 19k! Get use to it folks as more collectors get in this hobby prices will rise and demand will increase, and the good stuff will become harder to get any ANY price

Tom Wittmann sold these in 1985 for 5k, well now 23 years later they are selling for 17-20k a (for a NM or better condition) 400% increase that�s about 20% gain per year.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kingtiger:
Gentlemen, don't think for a minute that the "asking" price was the actual selling price. I have bought daggers for thousands less than the advertised price.


Yep, I've also paid way below the advertised asking price on a dealer's web site.

Of course, it would be bad for business if you were to put the "real" selling price.
That's what we call, "artificial inflation".

Mind you, I also do the same when I sell my cars.

Good to know what are the values of the items underneath the pillow.

Mark is 100% incorrect: I always honor my guarantee when there is a legitimate problem with a piece. For those of you who don't know about why Mark is an "EX" customer . . .

Mark bought a dagger for $5000 from me that was 100% verifiably textbook. My competitor Tom Wittmann, who does not always see eye-to-eye with me, liked it. Mike Maclavana, who everyone agrees, knows his SA daggers, liked it (and even tried to buy it from Mark for $5000). The only person who didn�t like it was someone who had a longstanding personal issue with me. Having an axe to grind with me, this guy thought it would be funny to try to get me in trouble with someone, and picked Mark as his stooge. So this guy gave Mark bad information about the dagger � information that was factually incorrect, and contrary to other eye-witness accounts about the dagger. Mark took the information to heart, got puffed up with an �I caught the dealer� mindset, and started bashing me in public because he didn�t get his way. Despite this abusive and unwarranted behavior, I gave him many very fair options: I�d sell the dagger for him and get him his $5000, or I�d buy it back with a 20% restocking fee, or I�d give him full trade-in value. Mark, misdirected by his inflated and bruised ego, demanded a refund. Eventually, he saw the error of his ways and ADMITTED to me in an email that the dagger was okay and that he�d been mislead. And now he�s back to rumor-mongering and axe-grinding.

This was MONTHS (or maybe even a year) after Mark had purchased the dagger from me - not weeks.

Folks: Don't be fooled by Mark's attempt to "peel back the onion" on this one. This is personal, childish behaivor on Marks' part, pure and simple. This will be my last post on the subject in this thread.

And, if you don't believe my version of the story, here is Mark's apology to me, in his own words, agreeing that what I said was true. He said we should put the whole business behind us, which I was glad to do, but now?

In defence of all the good dealers out there ..I sold a very nice Imperial navy sword to a man at a max show about 10 years ago... He later came back saying he wanted his money back because there was one red and one green eye on the hilt.... I told him (that the way they were made) Another person told him they should have two red eyes.... I sold the sword again later in the show... Some people out there think dealers are like K-mart or Target. When I buy something 1st I educate myself on it GOOD BOOKS etc... Go to many shows and look, listen... Regards: Jim

Mr. Gottlieb...money back means exactly that. Show me the money????!!!

NO.....
1. re-stocking fee. That aside..you state 15% and then want to charge me 20%?

NO.....
2. TRY to get my $5,000 back..trying does not spend...cash does.

NO....
"Full trade in value". At your prices I would be a fool to do that.

Who is Mike Maclavana? If you mean Mike McAlvanah..it is indicative of your extreme lack of attention to detail.

The ill will you caused by not honoring your written guarantee and then producing an e-mail attributed to me is simply immoral.

I can assure you personally that Tom Whittmann is no fan of yours and has publicly said so to me and others present with me.

Collectors do not depend or rely upon my advice to do business with you. That choice is left to them and I can only relate a factual depiction of what I was offered and what transpired when I wanted to return a dagger. No "lifetime warranty" came into play.

I mean no personal attack here, just a restatement of your business offer as it related to the "lifetime guarantee" as re-stated in the choices offered by you in your post above.

That was my singular point. Plus, I have personally purchased daggers from you for thousands less than the advertised price as an answer to the start of the thread. I still have the tags (as well as the receipt for what I actually paid you) on the Eugene Scheidt SA that I sold you and you changed the parts on when I bought it back. I have a letter written by you on your stationary telling me how you humped up a fake Reddick blade SS full Rohm dagger to deceive the sellers family if they ever wanted to see the real one you sold me as the grandson was not authorized to sell it. I did not scan and post it, but I can if you would like. Would you? I am in the business of ethical dealing and truth, not rumors and insinuations.

My reputation in this hobby is untarnished and will remain so as long as I live.

With all due respect,

Mark

Jim,

In fairness I must say that I have done business with a large amount of dealers in this hobby and the only problem I ever had was that one described above. I have a library of reference books and am somewhat educated on what I buy. The dagger the question arose over was a not often seen SA and if it was a good one my feeling was that he could have sold it to any other collector and maintained my good will. After all, tens of thousands had passed between my hands to his...so for $5K he threw it away?

I agree with your general viewpoint. The issue here was one of established trust and honor and then simply good business relationships. I would have bought it back in a heartbeat if I was the dealer and HAD a client like I WAS.

Mark

How in the world is a 20% or even 15% re-stocking fee justified. So if I bought a 5K dagger, it would cost 1K to put it back on a shelf or re-list it on a web site. Gimme a break!

Fact: he told me this was all over, he apologized (see the email above), and admitted he was out of line and mislead. And yet, he keeps bringing it up. A good customer? I don't think so. Just another typical "Mark Paulism." Remember the facts:

Mark bought a dagger for $5000 from me that was 100% verifiably textbook. My competitor Tom Wittmann, who does not always see eye-to-eye with me, liked it. Mike Maclavana, who everyone agrees, knows his SA daggers, liked it (and even tried to buy it from Mark for $5000). The only person who didn�t like it was someone who had a longstanding personal issue with me. Having an axe to grind with me, this guy thought it would be funny to try to get me in trouble with someone, and picked Mark as his stooge. So this guy gave Mark bad information about the dagger � information that was factually incorrect, and contrary to other eye-witness accounts about the dagger. Mark took the information to heart, got puffed up with an �I caught the dealer� mindset, and started bashing me in public because he didn�t get his way - months after he'd purchased it. Despite this abusive and unwarranted behavior, I gave him many very fair options: I�d sell the dagger for him and get him his $5000, or I�d buy it back with a 20% restocking fee, or I�d give him full trade-in value. Mark, misdirected by his inflated and bruised ego, demanded a refund. Eventually, he saw the error of his ways and ADMITTED to me in an email that the dagger was okay and that he�d been mislead. And now he�s back to rumor-mongering and axe-grinding.

And now that both sides have been stated clearly, I suggest that the forum moderator close this thread. It is pointless to continue.

The hurt hog squeals the loudest.

You simply rehashed your previous post. I think I will post the letter you wrote me since you are into admissions...you admitted in writing you had faked a dagger to deceive. Now Craig this is a fact. You did. I have the letter. You were at one time an admirable fellow but for the life of me I cannot fathom why you chose to give me the intolerable choices when I felt I had a bad dagger.

Close the thread? This is what the forum is for...to let facts be known. Not take shots and accusations. I'll let the facts of this matter speak for themselves.

I appreciate the fact that the thread remains as I have made no personal attacks, only statements of fact that I can reluctantly substantiate.

I say that because I don't want to degenerate into a foolish argument. Facts, young hero, are facts.

Once again...with all DUE respect,

Mark

I can't see why you would want this thread closed if your reputation is being put into question.

yeah, why close the post. I would like to see the letter Mark has. Also, how the 20% re-stocking fee is justified.

DAVE

Please DO NOT CLOSE THE POST....there is a good solid dialouge going here on what seems to be a very legit Point...if this gets closed then its pretty obvious whats at play here and you might as well shut the doors on this Website as MOST guys will bail out.

I do not understand the whole point of this attack>> what are we trying to get proved here>>Are we trying to get Gottlieb >>to explain some thing he is not willing to explain>>Are we going to make him change his views on certain things..no so.......

Very interesting thread.
Do dealers believe in "Customers are always right"?
Are their guarantees honored based on what the customer believes or what the dealer believes?
What evidence (if needed) must be provided?

Well, I have never ever had a dealer call me after a few years/months/weeks to say that the piece he sold me was bad, and that he would give me my money back.
Now that would be something!!!

Allthough I am yet to purchase an item from Craig, I have had reason to contact him by email on several occasions, to which his reply has allways be swift and courteous. This as well as having also viewed many of his public posts and oppinions, has not unsurprisingly led me to conclude that he is both intelegent and highly knowledgeable in this field of collecting.... It is then with some concearn that various submissions, having been made regarding the integrity of Mr Gottileb, are thus far unaccompanied by any single item of evidence to substanciate them....I would therefore advise anyone with greivences who are compelled to air them publicly, to do so based not on hearsay and rumour but on the physical burden of substantiable proof ....To do so without this evidence is to slander the individual. Allegations made in this vain leave those making them open to the laws of libel,which if the plaintiff decides to persue, can be, to say the least, costly.....Put simply, either put up or shut up!

Yeah, but a 15-20% re-stocking fee!!! C'mon, thats kinda excesive isnt it? Like I said earlier, if I bought a 5k dagger, it would cost me 1K to return it. A person could make a living out of re-stocking fees!...at least for awhile.

It is impossible for everyone to have - or percieve to have - the same experience when dealing with any given individual. Personalities & ego`s do come in to play & some people are just plain easier to deal with than others. That being said, in my opinion a man is only as good as his word & a businessman (dealer) is only as good as he treats his smallest customer.

Whether Craig Gottlieb has or has not indulged in unethical activities is not relevant to a transaction on an individual item that is known to be good although it is eminently of interest to the collecting community.

A life-time guarantee on authenticity should be just that. If an item is not all it should be for any reason then a full refund should be given without question. It may well be prudent to keep a very good customer happy but after the agreed inspection period has expired then I see no obligation to refund in full on something that is genuine.

I do think it is inappropriate to post private correspondence on a public forum with the caveat that we as a community have a responsibility to expose fraud wherever that may be.

Conditions of sale?.....If any vendor clearly states their conditions of sale, and those conditions are reasonable. It is you the buyer who is by defenition agreeing to those conditions by the volintary act of purchase. If you have read the conditions of sale, as you are obliged to do in all cases of risk, and you don't like them, then you can either, negotiate preferable ones, or if this is not possible you can walk away...It would be difficult to argue Legally that a restocking fee of 15 or even 20% was unreasonable, even if you do beleive it to be excessive. It would however be unreasonable by definition, if in the small print Craig stipulated that, by selling you this item he was, for instance entitled to sleep with your wife!...So put simply, don't moan now because you didn't read the small print!

So, let me see if i follow this thread correctly.

A member asked the opinion on a dagger another member had for sale.

Then, some members took the opportunity to participated in a little character assassination. Previously not allowed here.

Then, Craig's legal beagle shows up to lecture us on the fine points of dealing with contracts.

Talk about breaking up the boredom on a slow Wednesday morning.

For what it is worth. I have had several transactions with Craig and they were all satisfactory (and profitble) I might add.

Jim

Just for the record Sir....If by using the term, "Legal Beagle" you are reffering to me, or any previous post by me made on this forum, I must inform you now that,...I have neither been instructed by Mr Gottileb, nor have I offered him my services in any part or otherwise their in. To suggest or imply this to be the case is incorrect,with out foundation and purely speculatory on you part...Oh,and by the way don't do lecture's!

I do not know, nor have I purchased from nor sold to, the main contenders in this thread. The way any business is conducted is variable. I strongly believe the customer should be satisfied with his purchase, regardless. He should also be provided a full refund, less reasonable fees, such as shipping, etc. As most know, no amount of description, nor number of photos, can substitute for the old "hands on" examination. This is especially true in this hobby, where honest differences of opinion as to authenticity, condition, etc., frequently occur. Undoubtedly, there are those buyers who regularly return items for scant or no reason. They are undoubtedly thorns in the sides of sellers, particularly dealers. I can understand the exasperation one would feel dealing with such a collector. That collector should be dealt with on an individual basis. Either cease selling to him or add the condition of a substantial stocking fee for him only. However, a large restocking fee, which could amount to thousands of dollars, is outrageous, regardless of who the seller is. If a buyer is unwilling to accept the terms of a sale, he should simply avoid doing business with the seller. There are true expert sellers and there are self-styled "expert" sellers, who can and do deceive buyers, or simply don't know what they are talking about when advertising an item. Setting a high "restocking fee" enables the ignorant and the unscrupulous to glean substantial amounts from dissatisfied buyers whether an item is permanently sold or not. For honest sellers, setting unusual sales provisions, even though it is their right to do so, tends to throw a dim light on their business endeavors.

Grumpy, I thought that was very well put. I have also considered the same concept when I look at some of the garbage on ebay.

Mr. Julian-Harvey. It is my job here, as a moderator, to lecture. If you had been here more than 4 weeks, you might know that. You should also know my post was to put this discussion in perspective so the post will not be considered a violation of the honor code. In this case it would be pulled.

Most long time collectors knows what this thread is really about.

Jim

I too think Grumpy's recent reply was excellent.

Since (probably) some dealers are following this thread, I for one would love to know what conditions needs to be met for the lifetime-guarantee to kick in when there's a question of authenticity on an item?
Is it enough that the buyer believes that the item is not correct, or does some kind of "evidence" need to be presented?

Best regards,

Guys:

At the risk of expressing some not so politically correct views:

1) Most, if not all, reputable dealers and collectors will give you an inspection period for any purchase you make. This period (3 to 7 days upon receipt) allows the purchaser time to validate the authenticity and to decide if they like or want the item in question. If the collector/buyer decides that he doesn't want it within this inspection period, he is allowed to return it with no penalty. He would, of course, have to pay to have it shipped back. And the loss to him would be any postage costs to have the item delivered to him plus any fees that he would have to pay for the initial purchase. Total cost to the purchaser would be postage both ways plus fees (ie. Paypal, bank fees, etc). There are no restocking fees charged by reputable dealers within this inspection period.

2) If items are found to be not authentic after the fact (after the inspection period), then most dealers will take it back and refund the money paid, less any bank fees or postage as above. This could take place years after the purchase. The question of what qualifies for not authentic is a good one. If one person says it is fake and ten say it is good, who is right? It depends on who the one is. For example, if Ron Weinand would say to me that an NPEA that I own is not authentic, I would place a heck of a lot of value on his opinion... he wrote the book on these! If people who have an axe to grind with certain dealers express negative opinions solely based on the dealer, I would get second or third opinions. Most of these kinds of disputes can and are handled very well by the reputable dealers. And all dealers are human, they can all make mistakes. It is how they handle their mistakes that separates the good ones from the bad ones.

3) If, after the inspection period, you decide that you don't like the piece then what can you do? You can sell it on the market and probably get less than what you paid for it, or you can try to return it to the dealer you bought it from. Why should this transaction be treated as anything other than a resale? If it were a resale, a dealer would probably offer you 70-80% of retail. Since retail would be close to what you paid for the item, in many cases, you would get 70-80% of what you paid for it. If the dealer, as per his terms of sale (which you accepted when you purchased from him... this is fact), decides to charge his restocking fee of 10-20% depending on the dealer, it is his right to do so. He may not want to do this if he doesn't want to damage his relationship with you, but he may well need to do this to cover costs, to cover opportunity costs and to discourage this kind of behaviour. Is it a lot to pay, yes, sometimes, but we all agreed to this possibility when we decide to buy from a person who states this policy very clearly.

I have had occasion to do both... I have returned items within the inspection period and have had no problems and no questions. I lost out on the postage both ways and have paid the Paypal fees to the dealer. I have also returned items a year later because they didn't fit my collection anymore and paid the restocking fee. Both sets of activities were my choice. Did I like paying the restocking fee..NO. But it was cheaper than selling the pieces to another dealer, for sure.

In the case of Craig, I have purchased from him. I have sent items back within the inspection period with absolutely no hassles. And I have returned to him items that I have had for a period of time. I have had no issues at all. Even though there are items on his site that I wouldn't buy... not a question of authenticity, but a question of uniqueness... I would rather own items that are close to textbook and unquestionable than some of the one off and unique things that he occasionally has for sale.

Sorry for my long-winded response, but I have to get this off my chest. I think it all comes back to why dealers are in business... to make money. If their prices or their policies are too onerous, buy elsewhere.

John