UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Rohm Dagger Forum SA Rohm by Eickhorn

Over on WehrmachtAwards.com in the dagger forum is an interesting thread on SA Rohm Daggers by Eickhorn that is developing. It appears that Eickhorn produced Rohm SA Daggers that have NO Gau Marks on the crossguards have a blade that has the SA motto one letter down the blade further than those with the Gau Mark.
I have also observed this and these blades are found on Ground Rohms, Full Rohms and Rohms known to have been found directly out of the woodwork, so no bad blade source on these as far as I can determine.
I will post photos when I get the chance. Has anyone else observed this anomily?
Ron Weinand

Ron,

Do you mean the motto is shifted one letter's width closer to the tip of the blade?

Not too much of a discussion developing over there yet , one person agrees so far, but maybe it will go further.

John

That is correct John. Maybe more comments will be made on this site.
Ron Weinand

Is the trade mark on these the small one and close to the crossguard as on SS Rohms which have the SS motto ending 35mm from the crossguard rather than 25mm standard placement?
I wonder if the wax template was made in one piece for both sides of the blade and folded at the pointed end that would explain the 10 mm shift of the SS motto as the trademark moved 10mm nearer the crossguard on the reverse

Hi Ronald

I don`t understand the gau marks were stamped at the Eickhorn factory?

We still have much to learn about SA Rohm Daggers. First of all, we know that they existed from the beginning, as we have seen the Early Motto Pattern by Eickhorn and Pack with a Rohm inscription on the reverse. So Rohm had this Honor Dagger made from the start of SA Dagger production.
Next, we know that the individual Gaus ordered the SA Rohm Dagger after the initial production of some for Rohm.
So the question is: Are the SA Rohm Daggers without Gau mark ones that were produced BEFORE the Gau orders?
This is the answer or the ones without Gau markings were a special order separate from the individual Gau orders.
Until we can establish a time line, I don't think the answer is currently known.
JMO,
Ron Weinand

No Gau Mark SA Rohm Eickhorn

Rohm Eickhorn TM

Ernst Rohm

Do you have a copy of SA Organization and Daggers in Gruppe Nordmark by Dr. phil. Martin Schuster? It states that the regular SA daggers were authorized by order dated December 15, 1933. The honorary (Rohm) daggers were authorized February 3, 1934. Schuster adds a footnote as follows:

Apparently, honorary daggers had already been awarded before that date, but no trace of regulations concerning manufacture or supply of these daggers could be found in the sources. The order introducing honorary daggers in Feb 1934 stated, that these »as the ones awarded heretofore,bear my [i.e. Röhm‘s] dedication« (»Auch dieser Dolch trägt wie der bisher verliehene meine Widmung.«):OSAF I No. 1444/34, 3 Feb 1934, re Dolche, BA NS23/514. In May 1934 these early honorary daggers (»awarded in December 1933 and January 1934«) were recalled because of their bad quality:OSAF P No.9162/34, 5 May 1934, re Umtausch der Ehrendolche, BA NS23/550.

In addition, my reading of this work suggests to me that the gau marks may have indeed been stamped by the dagger manufacturer as a way to account for the filling of a Gruppe allotment. This especially makes sense if the manufacturer was filling allotments for more than one Gruppe. What better way to account for them than to mark the daggers? It makes less sense to me that the gau marks were stamped after having received the shipment of daggers. What purpose would that serve?

Reading this, I had two thoughts:

- No one really knows where the gau stamp was applied, but I always thought that it was not at the factory, but somewhere further down the distribution chain. The work is to sloppy on many daggers to have been a factory process. The second reason I think they are local is the always-off-center "Ho" gau stamp. How could several makers or factories be induced to stamp that one gau mark off center ??

- Both regular and Rohm dedication daggers are found without gau stamps, but they are in the minority. 5% or more? One explanation that makes sense is that the non-stamped ones were those that bypassed the normal distribution channels and went (or were presented) to the higher-ups.

Just thoughts - no proof.

Dave

I like your second thought Dave - and have read or heard it from a couple of other experts as well. I'd like to think that it could be proven someday.
From the known original owners of high military / political / business standing of dedicated daggers I wonder if this holds in most cases with regard to the absence of gau stamps?

Dave... your point about the HO stamp is well taken.

I believe Tom will speak directly to this issue on his upcoming book.

Paul:

And when would that book be issued? Do you think in time for the MAX?

John

Really John, who knows. All I keep hearing on the grapevine is 6-12 months and I've heard that for 2 years....
I well recall the anticipation of his SS book with many delays but in the end all that was forgotten as we ended up with a wonderful reference.
To be fair I think this has turned into a huge job for him with a ton of info to sort through.

Lastly getting back to these crossguards. I believe that Mike is on the right track. Many now believe that the unstamped ones were presented. What is interesting here is that for years some collectors turned their noses up at these thinking them not "textbook". Ironically they may end up at the end of the day as being more desirable!
Really it is so great to be part of a hobby that we are continuing to learn so much about.

The book ? Watching from a distance, I see that it takes about 18 months to put something like that together from start to finish. Not only writing the words, but proofreading, getting the picture captions correct, then repeating the process when the printers proofs are available.

The challenge is time. Tom is running his own business, going to shows, and is one of the MAX promoters. Plus, all those unexpected emergencies like the bomb that the Radisson just dropped on him take up a lot of time.

Dave

What bomb was that????

I see what is up.... I have a table and never heard a thing.... Big mess

DAMAST:

It means that we are all staying at the Executive West.



John

Sorry, wrong show...

Same problem.

I couldn't get into the Radisson and was a little annoyed. Now, it looks like I lucked out.

John

I just talked with Tommy Johnson and the Comfort inn Is where he reccomended we stay at. Nice place with a large bar and they still have rooms if you like to smoke whatever!

Just a little addition--Some other types of presentation SA's will sometimes have no Gau stamp--so Rohms with no Gau stamp as special presentations would make sense.

If this is the case with SAs then SS Full Roehms with no gau stamps would be considered rare indeed - yes?

SS daggers don't usually have gau marks they have distric marks I,II or III.

And one with no district marks?

Hello, Nietzche is correct, Rohms, Himmlers, most '36 Chained and also the Jacobs and K+M "!" daggers are not district marked. This is also reason that some collectors believe that the "!" daggers are presentation pieces. Just my humble opinion! Regards, Leipzig

My Rohm daggers are distric marked "I". I don't know about the rarity of ones without distric stamps.
Jim

I'm a little confused. Are we talking about the absence of gau stamps or district marks on these SS Full Roehms or the absence of both?

Mine is inherited and has been in our family since dad obtained it in Munich in 1947 when he was with the Big Red One in Surplus Weaponry Liquidation. It has absolutely no stamps of any kind on the exterior of the crossguards. There are stamps on the inside of course.

Thanks,

Mike

Hello, I stand corrected, Thanks Nietsche! O.K., Himmlers have NO stamp of any kind? Leip

FullRohm, we're talking about the absense of gau stamp marks on SA Rohm daggers and the absense of distric stamp marks on SS Rohm daggers. My original point was that SA's have gau marks and SS have distric marks. It is rare but not unheard of to find an SS dagger with a gau stamp but I have never seen an original SA dagger with a distric stamp mark. Sorry to confuse you. Jim

Understood - thanks.

Have a good weekend gentlemen,

Mike

The majority of the rarer SS daggers have no district stamp. Gembruch, Schuttelhoffer, Jacobs, K&M, etc.

Dave

Thanks Dave.
Mine is an Eickhorn - I don't know if that is significant or not.

we know