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#197358 08/19/2006 02:21 PM
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JaV Offline OP
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Hi fellows,

What do you think? i have my doubts..

JaV

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side

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inside

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4.

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Erel mark

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liner..

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liner.. side

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What is that "pink" cloth?

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..

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back

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Front

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side..

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....

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.....

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pink?????

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.......

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?

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Please, opinions!

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Please, any opinions!

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A perfectly good and properly marked Erel visor. A most desireable maker and cap for this branch of service and piping. Although not in perfect condition it is perfectly fine and original. Not too bad. What did you not like about it? Has the proper interior, sweaband, proper sweatband mark and corresponding diamond mark and proper green underside to the visor.Would have been an expensive visor in its day for an NCO, perhaps flight crew. cheers, Ryan

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Sweatband appears to have been re-sewn in areas if not completely. Not unusual for these Erel as they were delicate. Also chinstrap may have been replaced. cheers, Ryan

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Thanks Ryan,

Yes it looks good, inside itself and visor itself is ok to me.

but i dont like that chinstrap, sweatband is definitely been re-sewn, but between visor and sweatband is odd hard black cloth.
And also that "pink" cloth under inside.

What do you think that outer shell?

JaV

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Hi JaV the "odd black cloth" that you refer to was an attempt at providing a cushion for one's forehead. It is an option seen on many better quality caps. Stirduckdenfrei which translates as pressure free is the word most commonly associated with this feature. Please excuse my spelling. cheers, Ryan

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Thanks Ryan, again!

Maybe that is ok Smile

JaV

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ConfusedI have to say I dont like the cap.The interior is correct like Ryan stated....for an officers cap.Is it possible ...sure everything is...but I have never seen an enlisted cap with an EREL Officers Kleiderkasse interor.Alot of people scream about "put together caps" Roll Eyes...But this piece actually does look like it could fall into the "do it yourself" category.The condition itself lends credence to that possiblity.I can see that the piping on the outside front of the cap dosent even appear to be attached.The sweatband doesnt go with the cap...its not Luftwaffe and may not even be a period piece and the side buttons are also wrong.Luft visors are quite common...in excellent condition and are the most inexpensive TR visors you can buy.If you havent already bought this cap....I think you should hold out for a much nicer example.I would almost wager that this cap had an officers cord added buy someone to go along with the interior.But I dont believe it was done prior to 45.NOW.....if anyone has Luftwaffe enlisted caps with EREL Officer Kleiderkasse interiors please post them for reference.

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ADDENDUM:"Sweatband" should read "chinstrap"!It is not a Luftwaffe "chinstrap". Red FaceYou have to make exceptions for me I am barely literate!

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The black leather chinstrap is the Army type with rectangular buckles rather than the Luftwaffe type having oval buckles; which isn't that big of a deal, but it's still not copesetic.

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Hi this is far from a rare or expensive cap even in mint condition. I have seen Luft visors with army and SS style chinstraps as I have encountered the reverse. As I state the chinstrap is not a textbook example but in of itself is no reason to doubt authenticity. The interior lining of a cap does not denote officer status but rather ones ability to request and afford the type of cap desired. With money you could option out a cap anyway that you wanted it. I have seen officer grade interiors many times on Heer and Luftwaffe NCO caps.Now if the lining seems not to fit the size of the cap or appears resewn that is a different question but I can not tell that from the pictures provided. Again cap has issues but looks original to me. Could have been a basket case that someone restored with a new chinstrap and insignia which is more likely the case. Not worth the cost and effort to make up. cheers, Ryan

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Ryan...in this case the interior does denote something specific..."Offizier Kleiderkasse-Berlin".Private purchase linings are not the issue here.....the issue is that the cap is a Luftwaffe enlisted cap....with an "Offizier Kleiderkasse-Berlin" lining and Logo.AND...that the cap appears to be in such poor condition that it could very possibly be a patched together job.I could be wrong.....and I welcome anyone else to jump in and correct me if I am....but an "Offizier Kleiderkasse-Berlin" lining and Logo....are not Kosher in a Luftwaffe EM cap.

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Hi Dave in all honesty I did not notice that when I posted. Having said this the body of the cap appears in good condition so I do not know why the interior would need replacing. The wear to the interior seems a little excessive but as detailed these Erel sweatbands are brittle and are known to deteriorate. If the cap is fake why add this obviously authentic interior to it? The cap is neither rare nor expensive. This cap would need to be examined in person to be certain that it has not been altered or entirely put together. I agree with you on the Kleiderkasse issue but it just does not add up. I have encountered many Heer officer visors with NCO grade interiors and I have encountered Allgemeine SS and Heer NCO visors with officer grade interiors. cheers, Ryan

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Hi Ryan.I agree with what you are saying about Army and SS caps.I would not find it unusual to encounter say...an SS EM cap with a high quality linning...no problem.I wouldnt find it unusual to encounter an Officer cap with a lesser(lets say...EM quality) lining.These wouldnt really be abnormalities.If an SS or Heer EM had the cash and wanted a higher quality cap...no problem...he could get it.If he ever became an officer...he just upgrades his chincords.If an officer came up through the ranks and simply upgraded his EM cap with the addition of Officer chincords no problem.But thats not my problem with this cap.Its not the quality of the lining ....its that "Offizier Kleiderkasse Berlin" is a distributer....not a grade of cap.EXTRA is the grade of this cap.EREL "EXTRA"."Offizier Kleiderkasse Berlin" was an outlet for the purchase of Army and SS uniform items by SS and Army Officers.Luftwaffe officers had a similar outlet...."Luftwaffe Kleiderkasse"(?)....not sure if thats the actual designation of their distribution.....but its something along those lines.That is what sends up the red flag in my opinion.A luftwaffe EM purchases his cap through SS and Army Officer uniform channels?That and the condition of the cap lead me to believe something is wrong with this picture(the cap).I dont have any idea why EREL would produce an Luftwaffe EM cap for the "Offizier Kleiderkasse Berlin"(?)I also do not believe that I have ever seen an EREL with the sweatband stitched to a piece of black fabric like this cap exhibits.That is not a typical EREL trait.At least not to my knowledge.....I am waiting for others to set me straight if I am wrong....but we seem to be the only ones interested in this issue.

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"Verkaufs-Abteilung der Luftwaffe-Berlin" wasthe Luftwaffes equivalent to the "Offizier Kleiderkasse".

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Hi Dave you raise some valid points. I must also agree with you on the pressure free black cloth strip. Although it is a feature encountered on some caps I agree that I do not recall seeing it on Erel caps of the period. Like I stated I guess we will not know for certain until we have the cap in hand.I can not help but question why someone would take a fake cap such as this and place an authentic period lining, sweatshield and sweatband in it. Conversly, if it were an authentic cap that required replacemnet of these interior missing items, what had occurred to it to cause the need for replacement? The cap exterior appears in rather good condition. Like you I will wait for other opinions. cheers, Ryan

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Dave raises some very valid concerns. Something is very fishy with the lining of this visor. I have never seen the black velvet insert on an Erel...only on Pek�ros or Pek�ros-licensed manufacturers...and on those, the application was far neater than on the subject cap. Here, the application is sloppy particularly in the forehead area and incomplete on the circumference..

The Offizier Kleiderkasse marking is puzzling; in fact I have a hard time coming up with a lame excuse why this would appear in any Luftwaffe visor...let alone an enlisted/nco visor, private-purchase or not.

But equally puzzling is why any postwar collector would attempt to slap a Frankenstein together from these parts for so little financial gain is beyond me.

Paul

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Thanks for the additional input Paul.I wish more forum members had taken part.

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Offizier Kleiderkasse for the Luftwaffe is not only puzzling, it is completely wrong. The institution was called the Verkaufsabteilung der Luftwaffe. No Luft cap should have the Offizier Kleiderkasse marking. So, I would more than sure that this cap is a parts or frankenstein cap as they say.


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