UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Helmet Forum Am I seeing things?

Hi guys,

I have just recently picked up another German helmet...no, not a black SS (although I wish it was ). No, this is a wartime combat re-issue M40 helmet that has something about it that I would like you all to view and comment on. I won't say what I think it is...I will just let the pictures do the talking and you tell me what you see.

Many thanks. Pics to follow.

Name in liner...O. Schumann.

Early M40 liner...dated 1940 with reinforced aluminum band.

Nice clear domestamp up inside.

Batch lot number in rear of skirt...notice the feldgrau re-issue overspray on the aluminum band.

It's a nice large size made by Eisenhuttenwerke/Thale...ET66.

Right side of helmet showing oversprayed decal outline.

Last one (for now) showing close-up of decal area and the worn high areas coming through.

Hello darryl, I'm not into helmets, so this is just a wild guess, but is the over-sprayed decal SS or police national emblem, not tri-color? Regards, teufel

A rare M40 with aluminium liner band.
Tony

I think I may be seeing things too.... But that looks like the outline of a Q shaped runic shield to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken N:
I think I may be seeing things too.... But that looks like the outline of a Q shaped runic shield to me.

Agreed.

Bryan

not being one to want to tamper with things, but......

given the slight fade or difference in texture of the paint between the helmet as a whole and the area where the decal is (was), doesnt it look like the decal is still there????

there is a slight lip/ ledge to the decal outlining it, or at least where it may have been.

I would be tempted to try and lift just a millimeter of paint from the area to see if anything is underneath.....

but that depends on how much i was into the helmet for....

SCRATCH that last thought....

the helmet texture where the decal impression was caused by the chem's used to adhere the decal.....

There is nothing underneath.....the decal was simply removed or came off eventually.

that lighting had me going....

Chris,

It is hard to capture with a picture but there is a decal under the paint. It actually sits proud of the shell at this area.

start digging and you know for sure.

I hope it is what we all think it is.

and how should this refelct the value compared to a heer decal re-issue

Ken,

To me the decal looks like an ET 2nd pattern runes decal...bullet-shaped. And, not sure if it is wishful thinking but I believe I can see the ghost image of two runes under the paint. The area above the decal shows silver coming through where the high points of the overpaint has worn away.

Again it is hard to capture with a picture but maybe this one is slightly better?

I also checked the German War Graves site and found two "O. Schumann" soldiers who were killed in 1940...probably during the battle of France. Both were named Otto and both held the rank of SS-Schutze.

Nachname: Schumann
Vorname: Otto
Dienstgrad: Schütze
Geburtsdatum: 08.11.1910
Geburtsort:
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 22.05.1940
Todesort:

Nachname: Schumann
Vorname: Otto
Dienstgrad: Schütze
Geburtsdatum: 18.01.1913
Geburtsort:
Todes-/Vermisstendatum: 30.05.1940
Todesort

Interesting....... The helmet is in good shape, doesn't look like it's had much wear since it was reissued, I couldn't tell from the pics if the decal is SS but would suspect it is since it's now in your hands . any history? Tim.

Very nice!

Thanks guys. Yes, I do believe it was a previous SS helmet but I was just wanting to get some corroboration from you...just to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Here in hand and to the naked eye it is quite obvious, however, it is very difficult to get that effect to show up clearly with an image on the screen.

Ok, here's the kicker...the helmet was oversprayed and re-issued to the Wehrmacht. There is a Heer decal on the left side. Interestingly, there is no evidence of another decal under the Heer so it seems to me that this was a single decal SS which was converted to an Army helmet. A very cool helmet, IMO.

I don't know of any history behind the helmet other than it recently came out of Belgium.

Hi Darryl,
I have to agree, from the last pics you posted of the the right side of the helmet you can definetly see the outline of the decal and what appears to be ghost images of the runes.
Maybe it is just wishful thinking on my part but I don`t think so.
Nice and unusual find.
Tony

If I weren't such an idiot, I would simply have looked at the first photos to checkout the maker. Photo #8 did make the bottom lines look like a Q but in photo #10 that typical ET look is definately very prominent.

I do have to register a bit of shock at the suggestions of a digging expedition. Definately a more interesting look without any gouge marks.

Boy, oh boy....leave it to you Darryl....even when you buy a heer helmet, it turns out to be an SS one as well!

Definitely runes under there, although I wouldn't hazard a guess as to which manufacture..... Very nice.

Cheers
Don

Amazing .Did you buy this as a Heer helmet and get lucky or did you buy it as a reissue ex SS helmet ? Rob.

Thats a neat helmet Darryl, for a SS helmet Connoisseurs like yourself Also whats the web address for the German War Graves Commission?

Thanks, gentlemen, for corroborating what I thought was the case. This appears to be an ET single decal SS helmet as issued from the factory. In my opinion, the original SS owner (SS-Schutze Otto Schurmann perhaps?) was killed in the spring of 1940 and his helmet was then taken back into the supply system where it received a make-over and was re-issued as a single decal Heer helmet. The SS runes decal was simply painted over and the Heer decal added on the left side. A pretty cool history, if this is indeed what occurred.

Rob...the helmet was advertised as a re-issue DD M40 Heer helmet; a rare helmet in itself. However, when I saw the photos I noticed that the painted over decal did not conform to the shape of a national tri-colour shield and looked more like an ET 2nd pattern runes shield. I also thought I could see the ghostly shape of runes in the shield through the overpaint. I took a chance and bought it.

Adam...try this link for the war graves site.
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=3595

Cheers,

For you collectors of Heer helmets here is a close-up view of the decal.

Thanks Darryl! Thats a really neat site.

WoW! Way to go Darryl. Now are you going to have a professional restorer uncover that decal or does the value of the helmet increase substantially with a little bit of McDivitt research to prove conclusively that the previous owner was a member of the SS? Thanks and cheers, Ryan

Very Cool helmet Darryl.
That one has some history to it.

Matt

Hi Ryan,

No, as is my usual stance with these pieces of history, I will do nothing to it. To me it is more valuable like this...as it was during the war. I am satisfied that this is a previous SS helmet that was re-issued to the Wehrmacht/Heer after the Battle of France. I'm not sure if any further info on the name could be uncovered without a unit or service number associated with it. As I mentioned above, there were two SS soldiers named Otto Schumann who were killed in May of 1940. I strongly suspect that one of them was the original owner but it is impossible to be sure.

just want to make sure, that my digging suggestion was a joke,

maybe it was like cursing in church to you,

Extremely interesting....good eyes!
Paul

Darryl,
You have raised helmet collecting to a science and it continues to amaze me.

If Schumann had been injured, taken to an aid station or hospital, where he later died, that may explain why that helmet was reissued or recycled. In good condition, the Germans would not have thrown it away. That it wound up an Heer helmet would be just a matter of percentages.
Interesting find,
John

Darryl... you are driving me crazy. I don't know where you guys are finding these beautiful helmets. But I am sure enjoying this forum and thanks for the neet graveyard link.

Darryl,

The images in this thread verify your initial suspicions. I agree with your hypothosis re the helmet's history. If it weren't too darn big I might even try to talk you out of it.

Cody

Thanks guys,

I am glad you enjoyed my little presentation on this helmet. This is what makes the whole collecting realm so fascinating; that you can bring history to life by "reading" a helmet. In essance, they all talk to you...you just have to look and listen.

Cheers,

C'mon Darryl, why don't you just dig the paint off of that decal?

You know you want to.

Why don't you wait and bring it to the SOS and I will do it for you. I am really good at it. I have a special hatchet that I use for scrapping and a blow-torch for burning off excess paint. Now don't laugh you guys, I am very careful when I use these tools. My dad's a TV repair man and he taught me all about it. Your helmet will look a lot better after I get through with it.

Darryl,
That is a killer helmet and definitely a 2nd pattern ET under there. Very unique with all the parts and pieces still there. Why don't you just get some spray paint and as the Rolling Stones say,
"Paint it Black".
Larry