UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons HJ Edged Weapons Forum HJ Odd one this!

Well any excuse to try out my new camera. I have had this in my collection for in excess of 8 years. It is the only one I have ever seen and I was hoping that maybe someone here also has one stashed away.

No MM, Swas does not move. I have also shown an old picture of my small HJ collection. Most just picked up from one source.

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Spock- You have the HJ parade bayonet. Good item. Hard to come by. Some were made by Alcoso.
Some by WKC. I had picked up a real beater just to have one, missing the insignia and in rear poor shape. I missed the last really nice one in the Greg Martin Auction in April 2005. But yours is the first no MM that I have seen. However I am NO HJ expert. Just like your bayo.
Congrats! -Wagner-

Thanks Wagner. As I stated I have never seen one before or since. I wonder if they were a special order or something kept by the unit and only issued on special occasions. My thinking is that for a member of the HJ to buy one would be expensive. Any other information would be appreciated.

Thank you.

Hi Spock,

I'm no expert on these but I have a couple of concerns. The HJ bayonet, issued to members of the Wachgefolgschaft ("Watch Followers" I believe) are quite rare and must all be looked at with scrutiny. First off, I'm fairly sure period pieces were only with the 20 cm blade and yours appears to be a long model with a 25 cm blade.

Secondly, the real touchstone on these pieces is, of course, the emblem. It must be pinned from the inside prior to the bakelite grip plates being riveted to the hilt. If properly pinned, the emblem will have a slight "wiggle" to the touch. You've said this one doesn't have it which is necessarily dispositive but usually a bad sign. There's no way to check this other than to have the item X-rayed. But let's look to the emblem's appearance itself. The emblem appears slightly off center between the rivets, just a bit too high. Also, the checkering of the bakelite appears to be somewhat skewed. Not terrible like a lot that I've seen but still slightly buggered.

Also, particularly on the right side, there appears to be some epoxy or something between the emblem and the bakelite. I don't know, that's the way it appears from the pics.

On a lot of these, the rivets are skewed and the grip plates have been replaced, that doesn't appear to be the case here. I would say the piece appears to me to be an original K98 dress bayonet with original grip plates with a postwar added HJ emblem. Sorry, just my thoughts from the pics.

BTW, the HJ bayonet mentioned in an earlier post was post war as well. I remember the specific piece well as it had an odd distributor mark of CA Staehle. The piece failed to sell at the original sale because it was outted as a postwar modification.

Here's a picture of an Alcoso HJ bayonet from Eban. At the time this was on auction, I believed the piece to also be fake but who knows. Maybe someone got a deal, it sold for $250. You can see a slight space where the emblem is affixed within the grip plate. Tom Wittmann had one a year or two ago that I believed might have been period. Maker mark was Gustav Spitzer and it was priced at $1795.

Billy. Yes I thought it a little odd that no wiggle was present. It is way to light to be a K98 bayonet, the handle base metal is much lighter in weight almost akin to an alloy. I have quite a few K98`s and pulled a few to compare.

I took a lens to the gunk around the emblem and it seems to be old polish I may try and wash it out with warm water. The emblem is flat with the surface, in your picture it appears the be recessed. Also the colour is gold not silver though that could just be the light. The blade is 25Cm in length. Interesting though, I think it best someone has a hands on I may bring it along to the MAX show.

I have only seen one of these that was good(it had been xrayed). I'm sure there are more out there, but there seems to be more fake ones than good ones. Get it xrayed and let us know.

I have seen less than 10 originals over the years and, yes, they came in both lengths for some odd reason.
I have yet to see one with the original frog and knot (as seen in the 1943 Organization Buch) and would be convinced for sure if one of these surfaced with some history.
Also, some are unmarked that are originals.
The key to these is to have your dentist X-Ray the hilt and look for the pins on the back of the diamond.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Thanks guys, I am going to arrange, if I can, to get the badge x rayed. It makes for an interesting piece but I would really like to know if what I have is the real McCoy. I did not pay a lot of money it for it, in fact I paid less than the cost of a standard HJ.

All I need do now is find an xray machine.....I will keep you all updated.

Are you on good terms with your dentist?
Regards JOHN

Well as luck would have it there is a materials testing station just off the M25 at Reigate. I am taking it to them to get pictures of the insides, they have promised to use some very high tech stuff............possibly an ultra sound machine as well as x rays.......i will post the results Tuesday evening UK time.

quote:

Originally posted by spock:
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Is that an ultra-rare Fahrtenmesser fur Oberjugendgruppenfuhrer Der Moosen piece I see on top row, third from right?

No i was told it was the not so common Nichtgerfingerpoken Mit Das Gnusnouten, issued during Gnu hunting season in and around Lesser Hoofden Hopp.

Though i am ready to be educated!

Well guys I have had it x rayed. there is definatley something going on at the back of the badge. I also took along a wiggly HJ short dagger for comparison. There is evidence of a material with a different density between the bakelite grip and the bulk metal of this dagger. There are big differences between the wiggly badge and the one on this. I will try and scan the X-Rays to show you. The badge does show some inconsistencies and IMO is either a bad fit or glued. But because of the variation in material density I just dont know. Taking into consideration how rare an item this could be I could not guarantee 100%. The only thing we did notice is that the grip metal is NOT steel, it is a light alloy and the blade is definately fitted to the grip in a similar manner to a standard HJ. IT IS NOT A MODIFIED K98 THAT IS A FACT.

Pictures to follow ASAP, my dentist was not approached and the tests were very expensive, $132.00 cash, however these guys work for the military and aicraft business. So you would have to go some to get better results.

Spock,

I had a feeling from the pics that the material would be epoxy, but anything's possible.

A shame you had to pay so much to have the piece x-rayed. It's a definite fact that it would be a "problem" to have a dentist x-ray such a piece in many places in the US.

Hi Guys,, Couldn't the HJ emblem have broke off due to age or wear and been "glued" back on instead of being put back correctly by someone who didn't know better or care for that matter? JohnJ

The xray of the one I saw showed two pieces of medal that were attached to the diamond and then folded under the grip. The xray was taken from the spine side of the grip.

John,

I think Terry's assessment is correct. In the event the above mentioned piece was in fact a period HJ bayonet, it would have the same configuration inside the grip plates, albeit missing the wire pinning the emblem to the grip. I remember seeing what the configuration looks like in X-ray, I think it was in Ron Weinand's Clamshells book. Maybe Spock will post a picture or two to show us what was inside of his piece?

I hope he posts pictures Billy. However it turns out I wouldn't mind having it, I just like it. John

Sorry for the delay. Been busy at seminars and UK convention. I will be scanning the xrays today.

attached picture of two grips.
A= Long bade showing slight gap at back but nothing like the one above.
B= Odd density at back of bakelite plates or a hollow airspace.
C= Metal from fixing of blade to grip alloy, the blade is definatley fixed to the grip in the same manner as a standard HJ.
D= Shows the correct badge fit.

E= was angled wrong and we did not get a good density variation using another machine. The machine was booked out for the hour and I over ran so they could not reset it for me. but I had already decided that I had the evidence I needed.

So for an outlay of around $180 I have an odd bayonet. It is not a K98. It has had a badge either added or replaced. There must be other bayonets of this type out there soemwhere without the HJ symbol. The density anomally at the back of the badge made the experts think that there was something there, but without breaking the item up we could not agree what it was. I think it could be where the diamond hole was cut to deep and the badge did not fill the gap.

An interesting excercise but still a nice bayonet.

Xray is helpful on these and HJ's. I have Xray in my office if anyone needs one xrayed. I could do it much cheaper, if my office manager doesn't find out, hehehe

A real one is very rare. I'm surprised Ron has seen so many. I have only seen ONE that I thought was real. It was a short PUMA with the wide fuller. This IMO is the only correct type-but seeing is believing-I might see another-a long one-- that I think is right-but I doubt it!

I have a long, unmarked one with wide groove. Kim Alstott bought one years ago from a veteran in Iowa and it was a long, unmarked one with wide groove (both xrayed and correct).
I had a long Pack with the diamond missing that I bought from a veteran in rather bad condition, but the grip plate was formed to receive the diamond and the prongs were still in the slot.
Bob Thompson knows of one in his area in a collection that came from a veteran's club and I believe it was a short one.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Wagner,

The HJ in the Greg Martin auction was a fake, I researched it and sent it back.

Von Ryan

Thanks Von Ryan.
I thought I missed out on a real "sleeper". I had questions of originality on some daggers in that auction. -wagner-