#19143
07/05/2009 08:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
Thought I would share my early NSKK Honor with everyone. This is an ultra rare piece, Im sure one of the dealers will jump in and correct me if im wrong but I believe there are only about five or less known examples like this. Its identical to the SAHL except the handle is slightly deeper in colour and varnished, and the scabbard has a really lovely super fine high quality black leather covering.
Enjoy
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#19144
07/05/2009 08:38 PM
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Posts: 1,689
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OP
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#19145
07/05/2009 08:39 PM
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OP
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#19146
07/05/2009 08:39 PM
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OP
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#19147
07/05/2009 08:40 PM
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OP
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#19148
07/05/2009 08:41 PM
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OP
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#19149
07/05/2009 08:41 PM
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OP
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#19150
07/05/2009 08:42 PM
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OP
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#19151
07/05/2009 08:55 PM
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That's truly wicked. Thanks Mongo!  Cheers
In Memory of Joe Mann
Medal of Honor Recipient
July 8, 1922 �
September 19, 1944
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#19152
07/05/2009 09:47 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
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Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
First off,as we all know, pictures can be deceiving. I am wondering why you think this is a NSKK honor dagger and not an SA example with very dark leather on the scabbard and a dark grip? In your pictures the leather looks dark brown to me and the grip is within the parameters(light to dark) I've seen for grip coloration on SAs.
Jim
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#19153
07/05/2009 09:50 PM
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 5,666 Likes: 52
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Posts: 5,666 Likes: 52 |
That is an impressive dagger, Mongo! Especially for someone who was quitting the hobby some months ago...  Thanks for showing it! Herman
You never have enough HJ-knifes!
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#19154
07/05/2009 10:18 PM
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Posts: 1,689
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OP
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Its definately Black! If I get a chance I will post pics side by side with my SA or SS Honor dagger so you can compare.
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#19155
07/05/2009 10:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,436
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Wow, stunning looking piece - thanks for showing it!
Regards
Russ
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#19156
07/05/2009 10:52 PM
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Posts: 288
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Absolutly stunning dagger, congratulations.
Is it possible to get a better picture of the blade and crossguard (i fully understand if not)?
Also, a honor dagger like this, would it come whit a special hanger or a standar type?
Best Regards
St�le
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#19157
07/05/2009 10:59 PM
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Posts: 1,689
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OP
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It does have an unusual long black hanger as well. When I take a few more picures I will photograph the hanger as well.
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#19158
07/05/2009 11:10 PM
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Posts: 288
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mongobongo:
Thanks for the quick reply, looking forward to se more pictures of your amazing dagger.
Best Regards from Sweden.
St�le
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#19159
07/05/2009 11:28 PM
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Posts: 910
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Incredibly rare, well done ! Is that the original guilding on the blade...if so looks 100% ?
Jonathan
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#19160
07/06/2009 01:17 AM
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quote: Originally posted by mongobongo:
Its definately Black! If I get a chance I will post pics side by side with my SA or SS Honor dagger so you can compare.
I can only dream of having one, but three! Wow. Nice job. John
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#19161
07/06/2009 01:40 AM
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Posts: 6,304
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Very nice  and can only dream to ever own one of these. Congrats !
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#19162
07/06/2009 05:12 AM
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Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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I had only ever heard of a chained NSKK Honour, but, since both variations exist in the SA Honour, I am not surprised.
Amazing piece, Mongo. I am a wee bit jealous. Congrats.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#19163
07/06/2009 09:31 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,610 Likes: 8
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you lucky lucky man
Regards Sean
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#19166
12/04/2009 12:29 AM
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Posts: 1,414
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,,certain to be continued.
In Memory of Joe Mann
Medal of Honor Recipient
July 8, 1922 �
September 19, 1944
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#19167
12/04/2009 12:44 AM
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Posts: 147
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It's raging over on WAF. 
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#19168
12/04/2009 02:24 AM
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Posts: 10,682 Likes: 54
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#19169
12/04/2009 05:09 AM
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Posts: 12,157 Likes: 287
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Terrible! What a horrible story!! A few mistakes were made over there alright!.. Wrong price estimated for the piece. Sending first.. He was supposed to get $12K. but it looks like he got nothing! Why the wait though for legal action? etc.... US, UK, I wouldn't care if he was in bum **** Egypt,,,I'd be at that MoFos door with some of the local talent and sure enough get it back.. Last and biggest 2 mistakes,,you don't trust people you don't know,,and you never sell your families stuff! Hope rightful owner gets it back... And, if it was scammed from the seller I hope the 'buyer' gets what he deserves,,pay backs are a MFer!!
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#19170
12/04/2009 06:03 AM
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The amount was more like $10K, probably less, considering the exchange rate must have been considerably lower 1.5 years ago.
Its $9,916 as of today.
It appears that Mr A used his rep as a noted TR author to garner trust, but had nothing but swindle in mind.
Damn shame, hope it works out for mongo & the legit owner.
Doug
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#19171
12/04/2009 09:00 AM
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Posts: 831
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Mongo,- I hope this get sorted out in an honorable way as it seems you have come innocently into an unforeseen dispute.
Best regards,
Tor-Helge
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#19172
12/04/2009 09:33 AM
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Posts: 1,689
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OP
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Oh dear, I bought this item and paid cash for it in good faith. While I am not going to say publicly what I paid for it, I will say it was substantially more than the amounts discussed on the other thread.
So in short I never had ANY ideas there was any issues with the piece I was buying. If Chris and the seller have issues they need to get them sorted out.
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#19173
12/04/2009 10:44 AM
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quote: re was any issues with the piece I was buying. If Chris and the seller have issues they need to get them sorted out.
Well, I donno what laws says where you live, but in Norway all stolen items must be returned to owner, even when bought in good faith. By now you own stolen gods, if the allegations from originally owner is correct.
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#19174
12/04/2009 11:00 AM
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I feel for you mongo, but it looks like you may possibly be in it up to your neck.
If Mr Ainsby offered any sort of life time guarantee, I'd be insisting that he honor that, right this moment.
I'm not so sure we can go so far as to say its stolen, but it was certainly obtained fraudulently, and as of this moment, appears to be the property of the original owner in the states.
Doug
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#19175
12/04/2009 11:23 AM
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OP
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All I can say is that I am "very disturbed and distressed" to be in any way associated with this mess. The original seller sent me a mail overnight and this is the first thing I knew about it. Based on that I have contacted and spoken to the person I bought it from at length to try and ensure the situation is resolved ASA.
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#19176
12/04/2009 11:27 AM
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Mongobongo if Chris Ailsby refunds your money please do dont send it back to him, send it back to its origional owner in the USA, Looks like this is "THE END" for Chris Ailsby in the collecting community
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#19177
12/04/2009 01:37 PM
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Posts: 147
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Whatever the outcome it would seem that Mr Ailsby acted somewhat questionably in buying the piece for such a low price when he would have known full well it's true value, look we're all up for a bargain, but this reeks of cheating someone who had no knowledge of what he was selling, big mistakes all round here. 
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#19178
12/04/2009 03:46 PM
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Posts: 1,689
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OP
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I have spoken today to both other parties to try and get some closure for this mess. I have offered to help in any practical way I can to help sort out a resolution. I paid "fair market value" for this piece so will be happy to provide any assistance I can to resolve matters.
I do hope now that all lines of communication are open so lets keep our fingers crossed.
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#19179
12/04/2009 04:05 PM
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Posts: 82
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what kind of future as this hobby got,if so called Reputable experts are pulling stunts like this !
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#19180
12/04/2009 04:07 PM
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Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1
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Thanks for keeping us posted mongo, even though its directly none of our business, this kind of thing has an effect on us all.
When people shoot straight, nightmare situations like this don't develop.
This isn't the time or place to cast large stones, thats being covered pretty well on WAF, I hope things work out well for all parties [except the one who created this fiasco].
Doug
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#19181
12/04/2009 04:48 PM
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Posts: 147
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Not sure how Mongo sits legally with this, different countries have differing laws on stolen goods, I have heard of people in the UK unwittingly buying stolen goods and having had to return them to the original owner, on the other hand some years ago I was contacted by a finance firm regarding outstanding payment on a car I had purchased from a friend who had bought the car via a newspaper ad, the person posting the ad being the person who owed the money, however as the car had changed hands more than once I was allowed to keep it, though me and my friend payed the seller a little visit  just to let him know that we weren't happy with him 
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#19182
12/04/2009 04:51 PM
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Posts: 200
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Mongo, my advice is to ignore all advice you get from posters on message boards.
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#19183
12/04/2009 05:00 PM
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Posts: 1,414
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quote: Originally posted by Skynyrd:
Thanks for keeping us posted mongo, even though its directly none of our business, this kind of thing has an effect on us all.
When people shoot straight, nightmare situations like this don't develop.
This isn't the time or place to cast large stones, thats being covered pretty well on WAF, I hope things work out well for all parties [except the one who created this fiasco].
,,The "fiasco" has claimed three (plus) victims, so far. A call from "C.J.A." to Mongo in the night... hmm, sounds like the hell hounds might have the culprits scent? Easy to see who the criminal is here. Good luck Mongo, IMO, The "true" owner is lucky that the Honor Dagger is in "your" hands. Wouldn't want to be Christopher right now. (Is this a media thing? )
In Memory of Joe Mann
Medal of Honor Recipient
July 8, 1922 �
September 19, 1944
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#19184
12/04/2009 06:22 PM
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This one is going to get sticky. I know a little about the juris system. Someone's going to take a hit on this, either way.
Stay tuned and be sure to do what's right. This has been a tragedy from start to end.
_______________________
German Sabers
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#19185
12/04/2009 07:24 PM
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Posts: 722 Likes: 1
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mongobongo did you have the blade reworked on this dagger or was it reworked by Ailsby?
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#19186
12/04/2009 07:25 PM
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Posts: 1,689
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OP
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Has anyone got an account over there who could post something for me. I applied for an account but it has not been opened yet as it needs approving.
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#19187
12/04/2009 07:52 PM
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Posts: 1,689
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OP
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If so please PM me or mail me at [email protected]
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#19188
12/04/2009 08:07 PM
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Posts: 734
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Pm me if you need any help Mongo I am on both forums under the same name,
I really hope it works out for you.
Always buying Blood Orders.
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#19189
12/04/2009 08:30 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,291
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Mongo-
I'm on board over there. I can also pass along a message and post it for you as well.
Tom
_______________________
German Sabers
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#19190
12/04/2009 09:53 PM
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Posts: 1,689
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OP
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Posts: 1,689 |
Thanks guys im sorted, my account got activated in the end.
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#19191
12/04/2009 09:57 PM
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Posts: 688
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I feel so bad for all the party's involved here , so much so that this whole topic invaded my dreams last nite...it's just too much to think a deal went down this way.I really do wish for the best outcome for the owner and mongo,as far as the shady dealer I hope he gets what he deserves
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#19192
12/04/2009 10:29 PM
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Posts: 1,689
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Im sure we can all work it out, I dont think any of us are enjoying it so the motivation is there.
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#19193
12/04/2009 10:47 PM
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Posts: 2,365
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Ailsby's reputation has been soiled for all time regardless of the outcome. Best of luck to both of the innocent party's.
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#19194
12/04/2009 10:52 PM
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Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1
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mongo, wherever you got your calm reserve from, you should try to put a patent on it.
Doug
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#19195
12/04/2009 11:22 PM
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jeez thats horrible.....i understand the circumstances but ill tell you what ....he tried to sell it to the guy and chris ripped him off ...and now mongo has a truly great piece and he should give it back ??? sure he will get his money back ,,,,,, but im sorry if this offends people but ...unfortunatly some people need to learn the hard way ...the guy did something very stupid ....and in my opinion he should pay for it... he should have never done that..and he did in my opinion he should pay for his mistake...just my opinion
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#19196
12/05/2009 12:38 AM
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Posts: 323
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What a remarkably assinine remark. I hope it happens to you one day too.
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#19197
12/05/2009 12:47 AM
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Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1
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A slew of low post count Ailsby defenders cropped up on WAF, bound to be some lurking around here too.
Doug
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#19198
12/05/2009 12:53 AM
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Posts: 5,344
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save your chris ailsby books unless you run out of toilet paper... ,,the cad should be thrown under the jail,,,
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#19199
12/05/2009 01:04 AM
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Posts: 3,026
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quote: Originally posted by Erich:
Ailsby's reputation has been soiled for all time regardless of the outcome. Best of luck to both of the innocent party's.
Sorry to say this,but I'll bet that in a relatively short time many will even forget this event ever happened and more people will be screwed by this person.Not to mention future new collectors that will never ever know this event even happened.
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#19200
12/05/2009 02:45 AM
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I am sure you are right...some people will forget this,There is a "BIG TIME DEALER" (in his eyes)right here on GDC that has done things lower than whale s**t...and he has not missed a beat! I would have thought that his last knuckle headed stunt would have been the straw that broke the camels back. Now another "Big Time Collector/Con man"...joins the SCUMBAG CLUB
ailsby..."YOU ARE NOTHING BUT SCUM"
Sepp
GDC 0292 Gold
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#19201
12/05/2009 09:41 AM
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Posts: 651
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Why cant we make a list over people like this,here on the forum??
With big letters Headline,then people maybe remember.
Regards
Carlos1
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#19202
12/05/2009 11:44 AM
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Posts: 416
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I agree carlos we should be able to make a list of scumbags then other people cant make the same mistake although this probably couldnt be avoided with the main offender being an author ones trust will always be put in someone of his stature..... i feel for you mongo and the other innocent party and i hope the issue can be resolved without lenghtly and costly court action after all our legal system over here is shockingly poor after reading what happened to mongo on (WAF) and how he traded 11 ss daggers and cash for something that never arrived ones heart must go out to mongo to be inolved in this mess after what happened to him 18 months ago i really hope chris gets what he deserves and the other 2 innocent parties get their money back or other stuff of the same value but i fear there will be no winners here..... this is just my opinion anyway i wish you the best of luck and mongo i am only up in manchester if you need any help then give me a shout regards Adam
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#19203
12/05/2009 02:04 PM
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Posts: 147
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quote: Originally posted by Yankowski: quote: Originally posted by Erich:
Ailsby's reputation has been soiled for all time regardless of the outcome. Best of luck to both of the innocent party's.
Sorry to say this,but I'll bet that in a relatively short time many will even forget this event ever happened and more people will be screwed by this person.Not to mention future new collectors that will never ever know this event even happened.
Do you think so Rich? Even if there is a satisfactory outcome i.e. Mongo gets his money back from Mr Ailsby and the dagger goes back to Matt there is always the fact that Chris Ailsby really cheated Matt on the original deal, I'm afraid it's a name that will stick with me. I've seen the pics of Chris Ailsby's collection and he must be a very rich man, to put your reputation on the line for �6000 is a pretty stupid thing to do, if he had coughed up that amount straight away he would now be sitting on a very healthy profit without all this crap, even if Matt had found out later the true value of the item there would have nothing he could do as the deal had been done, now it's unlikely he will be happy with the �6000 and has said he wants the dagger back in the same condition it was sent, which it now aint, wow what a mess Nolan
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#19204
12/05/2009 02:30 PM
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Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
I made this point on WAF:
The dagger, after it has been 'tuned' both after purchase by Mongo and before purchase, is no longer worth the money that I believe Mongo paid for it, except, of course, to Mongo.
Ailsby should not profit in any way from this fiasco.
Muddinman's uncle and Muddinman were both happy to receive some 10-12,000 for this dagger a while back.
If the dagger is returned to Muddinman, they will not see anything like the 40-50,000 that the dagger sold for to Mongo (my opinion of this price only).
The best and cleanest solution to all of this is:
1) Mongo keeps the dagger and is happy about that, maybe not so happy about how it has been tainted for any future resale.
2) Ailsby forwards ALL of the money he got for this dagger from Mongo to Muddinam. This should make Muddinman and his uncle way happier than they are today and than they were a year and a half ago when they thought they were getting 10-12,000 for it.
3) Ailsby is out the 40-50,000 (plus he should recompense Mongo and Muddinman for any out of pocket costs that they incurred in this mess) and he has lost his reputation and much o fhis future livelihood.
While the above is the closest to a win, win situation, it is better than the lose, lose situation proposed by taking the dagger away from Mongo and giving a very much less valuable dagger back to Muddin.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#19205
12/05/2009 02:36 PM
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Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
Carlos:
There are several problems with the list your propose.
1) Everyone makes mistakes. How many does it take to get onto this list?
2) Everyone wants to make a buck. How much profit is too mush to get onto this list?
3) Every big and not so big name in the hobby could end up on this list simply due to annoying one or several people (and who here has not annoyed at least one person in this hobby... I know that I have done and said things to people like Tom W and Tom J and Craig G that annoyed the heck out of them).
4) Such a list would end up being a witch hunt and being hijacked by some for personal vendettas.
I think that knowing who the scam artists are is a good thing in this hobby, but who gets to play God and decide who is on or off the list?
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#19206
12/05/2009 02:46 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2
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What a mess !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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#19207
12/05/2009 03:01 PM
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Posts: 180
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After reading whats going on in both forum threads ,i think JOHNZ has far away delivered the best solution to deal with this mess
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#19208
12/05/2009 03:40 PM
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Posts: 147
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Posts: 147 |
The original owner has now said it's not a money matter any longer, he wants the dagger back, not a practical solution, I think maybe as he wanted to sell it in the first place he might just be happy to receive the sum that Mongo paid for it, Carlos mentioned that Ailsby would be down on the price that Mongo paid, but he wouldn't in real terms, all he would lose is a potential deal and probably a few quid in expenses.
Imo the best solution all round, Mongo keeps the dagger, Ailsby pays Matt the money he got from Mongo, Ailsby has lost nothing in real terms.
Nolan
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#19209
12/05/2009 05:15 PM
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Posts: 651
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John.
U are right,but in a case like this,it is talk about serious cash.
I did not think of a person sell a ithem for $500,in his favor.
Thinking of this case,and other to come.New collectors then have a chanse to see,that there is people to stay away from.
Regards
Carlos1
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#19210
12/05/2009 06:19 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 200
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quote: Originally posted by Nolan:
The original owner has now said it's not a money matter any longer, he wants the dagger back,
When someone says it's not about the money, it's usually about the money. I could be way off base, but I suspect that seller's remorse is playing a part in all of this.
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#19211
12/05/2009 07:52 PM
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Posts: 4,077
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Nolan's solution seems best. The dagger was sold. The seller claims he wasn't paid. He should not expect the dagger back, especially since it has gone to a third party who paid for it. The original seller should expect to be paid. Wanting the dagger back at this point seriously complicates things. The original buyer should forward the funds owed to the original seller. If such does not take place and the original seller can establish he was not paid, then it is apparent a fraud has taken place, especially since the original buyer maintains payment was sent. Under the laws of most common law countries, the dagger, if established taken by fraud (theft) belongs to the original seller. Should normal procedure be followed, the dagger would be confiscated as evidence by the authorities and held until the matter is legally resolved. It would eventually be returned to the original seller. Such could easily take a number of years. That would leave the current owner out in the cold unless the court orders restitution or he takes civil action against the second seller to recoup his funds, also possibly taking several years to resolve. It seems to be in the best interest of all parties to try to put personal feelings on the back burner and resolve the matter as quickly and simply as possible, as Nolan suggests. If the "middle man" cannot establish he forwarded funds to the first seller and refuses to pay up, I would pursue criminal charges. There is the possibilty the seller arranged to send funds and they were illegally diverted at one end or the other during the transaction. There should be a "paper trail" at the sender's end to follow.
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#19212
12/05/2009 08:09 PM
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Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1
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quote: Originally posted by Dwight: quote: Originally posted by Nolan:
The original owner has now said it's not a money matter any longer, he wants the dagger back,
When someone says it's not about the money, it's usually about the money. I could be way off base, but I suspect that seller's remorse is playing a part in all of this.
I think you are [way off base]. He was jacked around for 1.5 years. Any time during that period, he apparently could have been paid off and made happy, but he wasn't. If he would have been paid, these threads would have never existed. Since this blew out into the open, sure his eyes were opened a bit to its true value, but putting things in perspective, blowing this out into the open was not done for sellers remorse.
Doug
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#19213
12/05/2009 09:18 PM
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Posts: 1,945
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I wonder if Chris A.though he had the dagger on consignment thus no payment for 18 mo. and then he had to be sure the buyer (Mongo) still wanted it thus only 2500 pounds (short by 500 for 1/2 payment).Is this a new ponzi scam ??
You know you're over the hill when "Happy Hour" means Nap Time
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#19214
12/05/2009 10:19 PM
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Its pretty telling that the subject himself has not made any reply in defense here.
I can see him not replying anymore at WAF, he has already been hung & pilloried there.
Its been relatively civil here, and yet still no word from the man himself as to how this state of affairs that he initiated and created were allowed to fester to this point, and his justification as to how any self respecting, honorable man could:
* Stonewall an agreed payment for 1.5 years
* Sell an item that isn't legally his for a huge profit, and say nothing to the buyer about the circumstances
Its not looking very good for you Mr Ailsby ,,, And if there was any time to [attempt to] mount some sort of defense for your [former] good name, it is right here and right now.
Doug
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#19215
12/05/2009 11:02 PM
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Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2
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Reading both threads one question comes out:
Why the original owner of this dagger send it to the buyer without getting paid first. I would never do this when it's about dagger worth such a big bucks !!!!
Inspection before buying - no problem - let's meet at my place and have an inspection, but sending it to unknown person - BIG MISTAKE !!!
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#19216
12/05/2009 11:25 PM
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quote: Gottlieb
Gottlieb, a hands on exam is the norm before cash is sent, for any dealer/collector of note. No doubt Craig could verify this - And Mr Ailsby, with his extensive writings, can be considered a collector of note. No, no one is going to send anything to a forum "skynyrd" like me, or an "Iron Cross Mike" - But someone who is well known, that is how it goes. Why do people send Don Boyle $8,000 TK rings without getting paid ? Because they trust him, and know of his rep. Ask Wittman if he wants to buy one of your daggers, he'd likely say "sure, send it in and I'll tell you what I'll pay once I see it". Ailsby used his well known status to gain trust, which makes this setup that much more troubling, almost like a cop pulling an armed robbery.
Doug
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#19217
12/06/2009 01:22 AM
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We have to remember the original owner had no idea of the true value and he trusted the buyer for reasons stated.My take don't send something out of the country you live in.Meet the person and have someone with you .One of the reasons we see USA sales only ,buyers and sellers don't need the hassle.The owner would have had an easier time if customs had grabbed it.
You know you're over the hill when "Happy Hour" means Nap Time
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#19218
12/06/2009 01:55 AM
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Posts: 1,871 Likes: 6
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Lets not forget the vet in all of this. I think its despicable to do this to a gent who has laid his life on the line for our well-being. Its this sort of disrespect and greed that makes you wonder what people value today.
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#19219
12/06/2009 02:41 AM
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Posts: 147
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quote: Originally posted by Gottlieb:
Reading both threads one question comes out:
Why the original owner of this dagger send it to the buyer without getting paid first. I would never do this when it's about dagger worth such a big bucks !!!!
Inspection before buying - no problem - let's meet at my place and have an inspection, but sending it to unknown person - BIG MISTAKE !!!
Gottlieb, C J Ailsby is a 'DEALER' and dealers do not under normal circumstances pay out prior to receiving goods, it's the normal way of 'DEALING', lets say you need some cash pretty quick and can't be assed with hawking a piece around and decide to sell it on a straight sale basis to TW Or TJ, no problem mate they will take it off your hands, but they will want your piece on their desk before they write out a cheque, it's just how dealers work. Shady dealings and crooks drove me away from TR stuff in the early 70's and I only 're' started collecting (TR) about 8 or 9 years ago in a very limited way principally because of the internet and being able to easily access genuine honest people, however it seems that the crooks are still around and it really is very 'off putting'; cases like this really do not put this branch of militaria collecting in a good light. Nolan
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#19220
12/06/2009 04:22 AM
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Posts: 1,717 Likes: 2
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I am thankful for this forum for those who have contributed their knowledge to those less experienced in this hobby but wanting to learn. I agree with John Z that a witch hunt, would take away from the true meaning of this Forum and the hobby. Things happen as they will, trouble comes and goes. This unfortunate event will eventually work itself out. Its good to know there are watchers looking out for everyone and the protection of the hobby. Stay focused on the hobby but not getting too far away from it, and keeping it in a reasonable balance through discipline. The GDC and its collection of members are another facet in this diamond of a hobby, shining light on subjects that makes collecting enjoyable. I am glad to be here. Things will work out! Best regards Larry
Historical Stewardship is a Trusted Honor that must be kept!
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#19221
12/06/2009 10:42 AM
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Posts: 442
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 Look ailsby is SCUM..."Period" He sold the dagger and spent the money on??? He could care less about paying the money to the original seller... 1 1/2 years and ALL he has done is jack the guy around. I read some of these post here, and I just wonder if alot of you have read the PURE "BS" replies from warloard SCUM BAG ailsby, on the other site! Sepp
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#19222
12/06/2009 12:28 PM
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quote: Originally posted by Sepp: Look ailsby is SCUM..."Period" He sold the dagger and spent the money on??? He could care less about paying the money to the original seller... 1 1/2 years and ALL he has done is jack the guy around. I read some of these post here, and I just wonder if alot of you have read the PURE "BS" replies from warloard SCUM BAG ailsby, on the other site! Sepp
"Alot of you" ? He has been roundly condemned here, with only a couple of posts out of dozens that could be construed as mildly sympathetic. If you haven't noticed, the other sites thread is now closed, and guys getting too emotional, calling him every name in the book and not so subtly hinting at physical violence, more than likely had something to do with that. No need for a repeat of that here, guys can chose their words and get their point across without sounding uncouth, violent & vulgar, especially in a matter that doesn't directly concern them anyhow.
Doug
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#19223
12/06/2009 04:48 PM
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Posts: 1,689
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OP
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Posts: 1,689 |
I think it is an unfortunate position we all find ourselves in. It should never have come to this, but it has so the main thing now is to get it sorted out.I will keep you posted.
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#19224
12/06/2009 04:49 PM
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Posts: 1,689
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OP
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Posts: 1,689 |
Ohhh on another note that was my 1500th post here 
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#19225
12/06/2009 08:51 PM
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Posts: 1,414
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Posts: 1,414 |
,,Congrats on your 1500th post Mongo! You seem a true gentleman. (Like 99% of those who post here.) Easy to see that you are victim here. Easily proved by the timing of your post of the Honor Dag! I hope that everyone get's their just rewards in the Honor Dagger saga. (Jail if warranted) Cheers, (and GOOD LUCK!) Paul
In Memory of Joe Mann
Medal of Honor Recipient
July 8, 1922 �
September 19, 1944
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#19226
12/07/2009 12:11 PM
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Posts: 41
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When this first appeared on WAF it was said to
be an SA honour dagger.Now it,s a NSKK honour
dagger,which is it? i did,nt see a reply to the
question about the blade. Who tuned it up?
see the before and after pics on WAF and imo
it has been ruined. Why can,t people leave
stuff alone,very sad business all round
Regards
John Rosser
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#19227
12/07/2009 02:21 PM
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Posts: 1,414
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quote: Originally posted by Skynyrd: quote: Gottlieb
Gottlieb, a hands on exam is the norm before cash is sent, for any dealer/collector of note. No doubt Craig could verify this - And Mr Ailsby, with his extensive writings, can be considered a collector of note. No, no one is going to send anything to a forum "skynyrd" like me, or an "Iron Cross Mike" - But someone who is well known, that is how it goes. Why do people send Don Boyle $8,000 TK rings without getting paid ? Because they trust him, and know of his rep. Ask Wittman if he wants to buy one of your daggers, he'd likely say "sure, send it in and I'll tell you what I'll pay once I see it". Ailsby used his well known status to gain trust, which makes this setup that much more troubling, almost like a cop pulling an armed robbery.
I certainly agree on all points. (I wouldn't think twice about sending my prized items FOR EVALUATION, to a surprising number of the names listed @ the bottom of the forum cover page. NONE of which I know from anywhere but here and WAF. I may be too trusting, but I try to follow my gut.
In Memory of Joe Mann
Medal of Honor Recipient
July 8, 1922 �
September 19, 1944
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#19228
12/07/2009 03:41 PM
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Posts: 1,945
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Posts: 1,945 |
It's a shame this dagger was not posted on THIS SITE first.This whole deal may have not happened.JMO
You know you're over the hill when "Happy Hour" means Nap Time
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#19229
12/07/2009 03:41 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072
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Mann, just a FYI on those whom "you trust" A very respected forum member here had an item thrown away in the garbage or "misplaced in the garbage" by one of these trusted people and or his team of experts. We are all human and make errors but I for one am very cautious about alowing anyone to inspect,photograph or otherwise paw at my items anymore unless I am there.
I refuse to comment on the other mess as its my understanding that the "other forum's" matters are not for topic here.
Bret Van Sant
Ed, or we could have just replaced the dealer's name with another!
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#19230
12/07/2009 04:39 PM
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Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
It is all a matter of trust.
I know that I have sent some pretty expensive items to people just to have them see if they want it or to have it appraised.
I know of at least one dealer who, for the people he trusts, has sent out his items to see if they are wanted before asking for a penny. I have had one occasion where He gave me an item to take home with me to see if I really like it... and I was told that if I wanted to keep it, send him the money for it or send the item back to him.
Know who your friends are and try to figure out who your non-friends are. You may get burned on rare occasions, but, if you go with your gut, you should be fine.
It is a little like knowing who to lend your car to... some people I would lend my car without hesitation, others not in a million years.
And, on the question of who and why someone would 'tune' an item. Our hobby's dirty little secret is the degree to which this happens. If you have been around this hobby for more than 6 months, you likely know someone who can 'repair' items or who can get your items 'repaired'.
If you had an antique car, would you repair it or let it rust away? If I were keeping a dagger for my collection, I would consider some kinds of repairs... cracked or broken grips, bent scabbards, the list goes on. I faced this dilemna, like Mongo, on an SA Honour dagger which had lost virtually all of its gilding... do I regild or not since it had a great blade and was in otherwise great shape. I did not do this, but it was close.
If, however, an item is 'tuned' for resale and this is not disclosed up front, then I consider that a form of deceit, if not outright fraud. In Mongo's case, whatever he had done to his dagger was for his personal enjoyment. We may not agree that it was a good thing, but it was his choice to do this.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#19231
12/07/2009 09:08 PM
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Posts: 41
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We are not talking about something rusting away here, the blade
was in aged but original condition.Then someone decided to slap
a bit of gold paint on it, or "regild" as some would say. The
owner can do what ever they like, but IMO people who do things
like this are destroying history.
Regards
John Rosser
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#19232
12/07/2009 09:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
When I bought this the blade had been polished somehow, the damascus had large shiny smooth spots on it, I dont know if that happened before Ailsbury got it or after. It needed treatment to bring the damascus out again, if it would not have been got at I would have left it. So its still the same blade, just cleaned up and now all one colour and the pattern is back.
Sorry if you dont like that but it really has got nothing to do with you. I bought the piece knowing something had to be done with the blade. Damascus Is great for restoration unlike normal blades. Im very pleased with it so dont care what you think. If you have a better one perhaps you should share it with us all.
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#19233
12/07/2009 09:52 PM
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Posts: 4,077
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I would have restored the blade, too. It came that way originally, so why not bring it back to its original appearance, especially since it was in poor condition? It's the same old differences of opinion as to whether to restore or leave "as is." There is no winner to this debate. It is a matter of personal choice and philosophy toward collectibles. I will say if it is to be restored, do it right. Also, when it comes time to sell or trade, disclose any restoration work, if known, to the buyer.
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#19234
12/07/2009 09:55 PM
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Posts: 1,689
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
By the way the Patina had also been cleaned off by the time I bought it.
When I had seen the original picures of it on the other forum it looked real nice, but when I bought it the patina was gone. When I asked Chris what had happened to the blade he said it had been cleaned with a silver cloth!.
A lot of these have been re covered or re guilded.
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#19235
12/07/2009 10:04 PM
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Posts: 1,945
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I have heard of people redipping a damascus blade to bring out the grain in the blade.When someone owns an item they can do anything they want, kind of like taking a Model A Ford and painting it pink.As stated Mongo has bought the dagger did what he wanted to make it look better for himself and now finds out the problems encounted with it.I don't think he's happy with the situation as I know I wouldn't be if I could buy something like this. This dagger will have a mark on it for the rest of it's days As for the dealers when in the states it's a lot harder to hide if you are a known dealer.The price may have been the same but I think the payoff would have been quicker and we wouldn't be writing about this.The value was just brought out due to non payment. Dumb IMO
You know you're over the hill when "Happy Hour" means Nap Time
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#19236
12/07/2009 10:27 PM
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Posts: 1,689
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OP
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Posts: 1,689 |
I am very confident it all will be sorted out in the next few weeks . It would not be right of me to go into details but its looking promising at the moment .
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#19237
12/07/2009 10:38 PM
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I agree with rosser. The dagger was not in that poor of a condition to have it whizzed like it has been. The value of the dagger has been decreased as a result. The best thing to do is to store it under ideal conditions and don't let its condition deteriorate further.
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#19238
12/07/2009 10:40 PM
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Posts: 831
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I envy your positive waves Wish you the best of luck!! And I would also have done "something" with the blade if it was not kept in an original condition with patina and the works... Cheers,
Tor-Helge
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#19239
12/07/2009 11:11 PM
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I doubt if I would have modified the dagger myself, but can't judge for sure.
In any case, I don't see the point of these guys who insist on harping on & on about it.
So you wouldn't have done it, so you think its ruined, so you think it lowers its value.
So what ? Good for you guys then that it has nothing to do with you, and you will never have this dagger in your hands, let it rest sheesh.
Doug
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#19240
12/07/2009 11:16 PM
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Posts: 147
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Collectors send ancient Japanese swords to Japan all the time for expert repolishing by top swordsmiths, I've seen examples where the blade is many years old but will sport a repolish with a new scabbard and refinished grip. Art dealers restore and clean old masters, Furniture dealers repolish fine furniture, clock dealers restore clocks, medal collectors don't care if a medal has been cleaned or not, I don't know what it is with Third Reich collectors 
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#19241
12/07/2009 11:59 PM
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Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
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Nolan:
On this point you are correct. I spent part of the weekend visiting with Brian Quinn who is the President of the Japanese Sword Collectors Society. He was examining a Japanese sword that was for sale and commented that the first thing he would do if he owned it was to get the blade re-polished.
However; The problem with re-polishing a 3rd Reich political dagger blade is you'll lose a lot of the cross graining for sure and can also screw up the etch.
I guess the bottom line is some things are acceptable in one hobby and taboo in another. Classic cars are re-painted,waxed and cleaned with abandon while cleaning old coins is looked upon with distain. Art such as the Mona Lisa and the Sistine Chapel have been restored-- more than once.
Jim
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#19242
12/08/2009 12:40 AM
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I wouldn't go so far as to say "medal collectors don't care if a medal has been cleaned or not", that is too generalized of a statement, and not accurate.
Some certainly do care,that would largely depend on each individuals definition of what constitutes a "cleaning".
If it just a dusting with a soft cloth, of course no one is going to care about that.
But if they use acetone on the frame and beading of an EK2, for instance, to get it all nice, bright shiny new looking, then alot of guys wouldn't touch a piece like that.
Some would, but thats why cleaning generally lowers the value of a collectible metal piece, be it a coin, dagger or medal.
By doing so, a whole segment of potential buyers , the purists who want unmessed with pieces, are eliminated as potential buyers.
Less of a demand, a lower price.
Doug
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#19243
12/08/2009 05:06 AM
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I have my own very strong opinion on this.... I have sold some very nice damascus daggers 3 Tigers only to see one later on a dealers table with gilding (that it originally NEVER had) on the trademark.. I can always tell if the blade has been reworked... I have seen many reworked honor daggers and I guess some people are fine with it... Regards: Jim
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#19244
12/08/2009 04:37 PM
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quote: Originally posted by Skynyrd:
I wouldn't go so far as to say "medal collectors don't care if a medal has been cleaned or not", that is too generalized of a statement, and not accurate.
Some certainly do care,that would largely depend on each individuals definition of what constitutes a "cleaning".
If it just a dusting with a soft cloth, of course no one is going to care about that.
But if they use acetone on the frame and beading of an EK2, for instance, to get it all nice, bright shiny new looking, then alot of guys wouldn't touch a piece like that.
Some would, but thats why cleaning generally lowers the value of a collectible metal piece, be it a coin, dagger or medal.
By doing so, a whole segment of potential buyers , the purists who want unmessed with pieces, are eliminated as potential buyers.
Less of a demand, a lower price.
Sorry I should have been more specific about the medals, I don't collect TR medals I collect 19th century British campaign medals which are generally made of sterling silver, it was these I was referring to, I mean you wouldn't polish a VC for example, sorry for the mix up. I do hoever fel that the term 'Patina' is wrongly used by many TR collectores who simply don't knoew the difference between true 'Patina' which is the result of TLC without overly cleaning and 70 years of gunk, one example that particularly struck me when I came back to TR collecting was in the description of an SS dagger by Tom Wittman "the solid nickle fittings exhibit that greenish look that collectors love" well gents that 'greenish' look is the beginnings of corrosion or verdigris which if not corrected will eat into those solid nickle fittings you love so much.
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#19245
12/09/2009 03:07 AM
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Nolans right ...its honestly more neglect than anything...take care of what you have and keep it from any harm.
Regards,Jimmy
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#19246
12/09/2009 05:08 AM
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Posts: 4,072
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I just want to know one thing: where was I when this dagger came out of the woodwork! No doubt asleep at the wheel, or arguing about NSKKs or something - it's the type of dagger I would fly across the country to buy!
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#19247
12/09/2009 05:25 AM
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Posts: 3,291 Likes: 2 |
quote: it's the type of dagger I would fly across the country to buy!
That is what I find as a correct solution when selling/buying such a dagger. Inhand inspection at the sellers place not sending item without beeing paid first....
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#19248
12/09/2009 10:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,365
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,365 |
I agree Gottlieb, if you have a piece this valuable to sell dealers will come to you
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#19249
12/10/2009 04:40 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 21
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Posts: 21 |
What a horrible mess. I hope that the "thief" is forced to pay the original owner the full price paid by Mongo for this item and All court/and attorney fees for all parties involved, and Mongo gets to keep it. Best of luck to all involved except the "thief".
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#19250
12/10/2009 10:38 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 200
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 200 |
quote: Originally posted by EdGs:
What a horrible mess. I hope that the "thief" is forced to pay the original owner the full price paid by Mongo for this item and All court/and attorney fees for all parties involved, and Mongo gets to keep it. Best of luck to all involved except the "thief".
The price paid by Mongo is immaterial to the original owner- the original owner made a deal with Ailsby, not Mongo. Both Ailsby and the seller should be held to that deal.
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#19251
12/10/2009 11:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 157
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 157 |
All I have to say is that this Ailsby scumbag is the luckiest guy in the world......If he would have done this to me at the very least I would have crossed the pond and kick the sh.t out of him, stolen a bunch of his stuff and dropped it in the Thames. Crooks don't call the police...You know what if you buy the ticket I'd be glad to do it for you...Send me a PM I haven't been on vacation for a while.
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#19252
12/10/2009 11:43 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1 |
quote: Originally posted by Dwight: quote: Originally posted by EdGs:
What a horrible mess. I hope that the "thief" is forced to pay the original owner the full price paid by Mongo for this item and All court/and attorney fees for all parties involved, and Mongo gets to keep it. Best of luck to all involved except the "thief".
The price paid by Mongo is immaterial to the original owner- the original owner made a deal with Ailsby, not Mongo. Both Ailsby and the seller should be held to that deal.
May not be at all immaterial, if Ailsby used his well known status to make his offer as a form of appraisal. We don't know the details, but most likely he made quite a pitch, and said something along the lines of "Its worth about $15,000 so I'll give you $10,000", which is clearly not the advice of an honest expert, but a scantless scam artist. Also, holding up payment and shirking contact for 1.5 years should be grounds to void any deal in any circumstances,
Doug
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#19253
12/11/2009 01:14 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 200
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 200 |
quote: Originally posted by Skynyrd:
May not be at all immaterial, if Ailsby used his well known status to make his offer as a form of appraisal.
We don't know the details, but most likely he made quite a pitch, and said something along the lines of "Its worth about $15,000 so I'll give you $10,000", which is clearly not the advice of an honest expert, but a scantless scam artist.
I disagree. The seller himself stated that he'd received several PMs telling him it was worth $10,000 plus. There are posts on his original thread about the dagger advising him not to sell it for less than $30,000, another stating $35,000-$40,000, advice to contact Tom Wittmann and a a post linking him to this site concerning High Leader daggers. He also stated that he was a collector, so he wasn't some defenseless widow or aging veteran. Part of selling items is being informed about what you are selling. For example, I recently liquidated my U.S. Purple Heart collection. I set the prices and the collection sold fairly quickly. Some of those medals have already been resold for prices two to three times my asking price. Should I be upset and demand the difference? IMHO, no. quote: Also, holding up payment and shirking contact for 1.5 years should be grounds to void any deal in any circumstances,
As you've said, none of us know the details,only mongo, Ailsby (who I don't know from Adam)and the original owner of the piece. All we are seeing are posts on the internet, a lot of speculation, jailhouse lawyering, some internet heroes threatening violence. Ailby should pay the guy the agreed price in full and any incurred expenses trying to recoup such payment.
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#19254
12/11/2009 01:20 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 21
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Posts: 21 |
I also agree that if the deal was made, then that should be the price to the original seller. Payment should have been made at that time. Done deal.
Taking an item without paying for it is theft and the item is now a stolen item. The item can be returned to the original owner even if a third party bought it legit. The third party is now out his money and the item he paid for. Another theft.
IMO Ailsby should be forced to give up all money gained. Had he paid for the item in the beginning, no more could be done. He would have made a huge profit, albeit deceitfully.
Even though it will cost more money, I would see about putting some sort of lien on him until this is resolved. I wish you the best, Mongo.
Ed
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#19255
12/11/2009 01:43 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,414
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,414 |
,,Say you sell a car, you hold title until paid for, a long time, eighteen months!?, (you repo the car!.) It never legally changed ownership. That is, unless the timid C.J.A. has proof of payment for said goods. Just my slant. That said, I'm still for Mongo. also, I LIKE Andy's way of thinking.
In Memory of Joe Mann
Medal of Honor Recipient
July 8, 1922 �
September 19, 1944
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#19256
12/11/2009 01:44 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1 |
quote: Originally posted by Dwight: quote: Originally posted by Skynyrd:
May not be at all immaterial, if Ailsby used his well known status to make his offer as a form of appraisal.
We don't know the details, but most likely he made quite a pitch, and said something along the lines of "Its worth about $15,000 so I'll give you $10,000", which is clearly not the advice of an honest expert, but a scantless scam artist.
I disagree. The seller himself stated that he'd received several PMs telling him it was worth $10,000 plus. There are posts on his original thread about the dagger advising him not to sell it for less than $30,000, another stating $35,000-$40,000, advice to contact Tom Wittmann and a a post linking him to this site concerning High Leader daggers. He also stated that he was a collector, so he wasn't some defenseless widow or aging veteran. Part of selling items is being informed about what you are selling.
No question but the original seller was naive. Ainsby played up the fact that he is noted, people will tend to trust more a guy whome they can google his name and see his books for sale on Amazon and Barned and Noble, more so than some advice from an anonymous "SS Steve" on an internet forum. Often, people are aware that they can get more $$ if they hunt around, apparently this guy thought dealing with someone who is well known and seemingly well regarded was worth accepting less. I'd like to see how Ainsby played this up, I bet he laid it on thick as cement - And to me, callous dishonestly like that most certainly is a factor, I don't care if the victim was a little old vets widow or Craig Gottlieb. quote:
For example, I recently liquidated my U.S. Purple Heart collection. I set the prices and the collection sold fairly quickly. Some of those medals have already been resold for prices two to three times my asking price. Should I be upset and demand the difference? IMHO, no.
We've all sold things that people have turned around for a profit. If someone didn't think it was a good deal and they stood to gain, it wouldn't have sold in the first place. I've bought things that I turned right around for profit, who hasn't ? I'll tell people I buy from flat out "I can probably get around $250 for this, so I'll give you $175" Or maybe $200. I explain to them yeah, you can probably get more if you find the right guy. So do they want to wait around and find the right guy, or get the $$ right now, and accept a bit less ? Most will opt for cash in hand ... Time is money, and time spent trying to unload something is wasted time. That is reasonable, a 400-500% profit is not. I'm sure the margins on your example were no where near this honor dagger ... Plus you seem to be discounting the fact that he never even got paid the scantless price he was offered. quote: Also, holding up payment and shirking contact for 1.5 years should be grounds to void any deal in any circumstances,
quote:
As you've said, none of us know the details,only mongo, Ailsby (who I don't know from Adam)and the original owner of the piece. All we are seeing are posts on the internet, a lot of speculation, jailhouse lawyering, some internet heroes threatening violence.
Ailby should pay the guy the agreed price in full and any incurred expenses trying to recoup such payment.
I don't agree, I see the original deal as completely void due to the buyers shameless conduct - Morally, and more importantly legally, there is no deal. I do agree that talk of violence/illegal activites on forums is not very smart.
Doug
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#19257
12/11/2009 02:17 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 86
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Posts: 86 |
Hi Bongo, Wow what a mess. IMHO the dagger could get lost? Folks are getting crazy about all this TR stuff especially rare items.
Others: Opinions any estimates on the fair wholesale and retail value of this dagger ?
Matt
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#19258
12/11/2009 02:30 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 200
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 200 |
"Value" is speculative at best, especially when dealing with rare pieces. The best definition of value IMHO is when the seller's lowest price meets the buyer's highest offer.
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#19259
12/11/2009 06:00 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 200
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 200 |
quote: Originally posted by Skynyrd:
No question but the original seller was naive.
Ainsby played up the fact that he is noted, people will tend to trust more a guy whome they can google his name and see his books for sale on Amazon and Barned and Noble, more so than some advice from an anonymous "SS Steve" on an internet forum.
I certainly do see why someone would (at that time) give Mr Ailsby's offer more weight than an anonymous poster on the internet. But, given the interest and comments generated by the dagger, the seller should have seen the disparity between the offer and some of the other numbers quoted and investigated further. A second, third or even fourth opinion would have not been out of line here. quote:
I'm sure the margins on your example were no where near this honor dagger ...
Dollar wise, nowhere close. Percentage wise, not far off 200-300% quote: Plus you seem to be discounting the fact that he never even got paid the scantless price he was offered.
Not at all. I think it's fairly obvious that the seller hasn't received his money, for whatever reason. Mr Ailsby claims he has sent a partial payment. Is it fraud? It is it an honest mistake? Something in-between? We don't know. quote: Also, holding up payment and shirking contact for 1.5 years should be grounds to void any deal in any circumstances,
I would agree if Mr. Ailsby was still in possession of the dagger. Mongo- who I think is acting honorably in trying to settle this situation- has the dagger. He's also altered the dagger, which, since he didn't know the circumstances, was his right as the believed he was the rightful owner. Did the alteration enhance the daggers value? If so, should the seller compensate Mongo for enhancing the resale value of the dagger. Did the alteration hurt the value of the dagger? If so, should Mongo compensate the seller? A sticky situation indeed.
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#19260
12/15/2009 08:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 180
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 180 |
It sounds like Ailsby is the one who mucked up the blade. So, if it has already been "destroyed", I wouldn't have that much of a problem restoring it.
But to everyone who likes their daggers to look brand new, if you are going to reguild the blade, you might as well sand and restain the grip. And replace all that old, worn leather with new. Right? It looks rather odd to have that nice, shiny, new-looking blade and everything else looking old.
As for comparing TR collectors to others. if someone has a Model A with original paint or a Louis XIV piece of furniture with original paint/stain, it would be worth a fortune. Don't believe me? Ask an antiques dealer or watch the many antique shows on cable. I've seen many cases where an expert informs the proud owner that they have destroyed an item and ruined its value be stripping off all that old 200 year old paint and putting on a nice coat of Sherwin Williams latex.
What about the Declaration of Independence? It is so faded it is almost unreadable. How about a new re-inking so we can read that thing!?
Do you guys dip your coins into that crap that used to be advertised on TV? Well, you have just trashed them. If you had an ancient lamp with burned residue, do you scrap all of that off so it looks brand new?
Any collectible item with historical value should be preserved -- not restored. Restoration should only be done when an item is in poor condition and to stop deterioration. The Mona Lisa (and other paintings) will crumble to pieces if not cared for. They are carefully preserved by experts. They are not repainted so that they look like Da Vinci just put down his brush.
If you want something that looks brand new, there are plenty of repros out there.
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#19261
12/15/2009 09:26 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
I am in the process of re-blueing an old Remington Model 121 Fieldmaster. This IMO is one of the finest pump 22 cal rifles ever made. While this 60 year old gun is in sound shooting condition the remaining finish consists of faded blueing and rust. Obviously the previous owner(s) neglected it.
I suppose I could have just left it looking like a piece of crap and if it was just slightly worn instead of showing "honest wear" that's exactly what I'd do. However it's well past that point. Cars of historical value are restored all the time and this usually increases their value as well as preserving a piece of history.
Jim
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#19262
12/15/2009 09:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,888 Likes: 1
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Posts: 1,888 Likes: 1 |
The mere rarity would stop me from touching the piece. Now it will always have features that the original did not exhibit. Since the way they guild today is probably much different then 1935-36. When I believe they still used Mercury to guild? But maybe not?
On the other hand though doing it to a beater plain Jane SA, sure fix it up make it look good again. But they aren't worth $30,000 either. All in all, its his dagger or at least he thought it was his and he thought he had the right to which ownership entitles you. That is to do whatever you want with your stuff whether "Joe Blow" agrees or not whether its right or wrong. I hope it gets resolved for Mongo and the original owners sake but in most places they don't take into account your ignorant's to the law. Whether you knew it was stolen or not may not matter to the "Law". It was stolen through the non-payment of Chris, therefore it was stolen property which means in most places it cannot be legally exchanged. Making the true owner still the veteran and everyone else involve the criminals. I pray for the sake of Mongo that everything turns out okay since he seem truly innocent of wrongdoing here. I also hope the original owner gets full restitution as well. Then in just course that Chris gets what he fully deserves jail time.
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#19263
12/15/2009 10:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 180
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 180 |
quote: Originally posted by jim m:
I am in the process of re-blueing an old Remington Model 121 Fieldmaster. This IMO is one of the finest pump 22 cal rifles ever made. While this 60 year old gun is in sound shooting condition the remaining finish consists of faded blueing and rust. Obviously the previous owner(s) neglected it.
I suppose I could have just left it looking like a piece of crap and if it was just slightly worn instead of showing "honest wear" that's exactly what I'd do. However it's well past that point. Cars of historical value are restored all the time and this usually increases their value as well as preserving a piece of history.
Jim
Actually, I think we are in complete agreement. Rust is not patina. Active rust, of course, must be stopped. If the rust is inactive, then it would depend on the rarity of the item. If it was a rifle belonging to Thomas Jefferson, I would say leave it alone. If I had this dagger before Ailsby had gotten ahold of it, I would have definitely left it alone except for a coat of Renwax.
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#19264
12/16/2009 12:31 AM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
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quote: Originally posted by Andy Van:
All I have to say is that this Ailsby scumbag is the luckiest guy in the world......If he would have done this to me at the very least I would have crossed the pond and kick the sh.t out of him, stolen a bunch of his stuff and dropped it in the Thames. Crooks don't call the police...You know what if you buy the ticket I'd be glad to do it for you...Send me a PM I haven't been on vacation for a while.
Have you seen that Guys collection don't drop it in the Thames mate, send it to me, I promise I won't say anything, in fact I'll agree to buy it off you, then once I have it I'll bugger off without paying and go live on an Island somewhere.
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#19265
12/16/2009 12:48 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
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Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
quote: Posted 15 December 2009 17:25 Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jim m:
I am in the process of re-blueing an old Remington Model 121 Fieldmaster. This IMO is one of the finest pump 22 cal rifles ever made. While this 60 year old gun is in sound shooting condition the remaining finish consists of faded blueing and rust. Obviously the previous owner(s) neglected it.
I suppose I could have just left it looking like a piece of crap and if it was just slightly worn instead of showing "honest wear" that's exactly what I'd do. However it's well past that point. Cars of historical value are restored all the time and this usually increases their value as well as preserving a piece of history.
Jim
Actually, I think we are in complete agreement. Rust is not patina. Active rust, of course, must be stopped. If the rust is inactive, then it would depend on the rarity of the item. If it was a rifle belonging to Thomas Jefferson, I would say leave it alone.
quote: Actually, I think we are in complete agreement. Rust is not patina. Active rust, of course, must be stopped. If the rust is inactive, then it would depend on the rarity of the item. If it was a rifle belonging to Thomas Jefferson, I would say leave it alone.
If I had this dagger before Ailsby had gotten ahold of it, I would have definitely left it alone except for a coat of Renwax.
We are in agreement Jim
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#19266
12/16/2009 01:00 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1
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Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1 |
Guys, it has already been established, by mongo himself, that mongo altered the dagger, not Ailsby.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if this is going to be endlessly debated, we might as well at least be accurate.
Doug
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#19267
12/16/2009 02:02 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
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Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
This is going to get jucier than a daytime soap: Original Owner" I sold this dagger in original condition and I want it back that way or the equivelent value in cash!" C Ailsby: "I sold this dagger in original condition and I'm off the hook due to the fact that it's been degraded by over restoration" Mongo "Aah screw it. I'll just go buy another Ferrari!". Jim
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#19268
12/17/2009 09:43 PM
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#19269
12/18/2009 03:48 AM
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Posts: 98
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quote: Originally posted by jim m: This is going to get jucier than a daytime soap: Original Owner" I sold this dagger in original condition and I want it back that way or the equivelent value in cash!" C Ailsby: "I sold this dagger in original condition and I'm off the hook due to the fact that it's been degraded by over restoration" Mongo "Aah screw it. I'll just go buy another Ferrari!". Jim
Yeah I totally agree. I was reading the posts every night with a beer over at the WAF until they closed the thread. Supposedly for legal reasons. Oh well. Cheers, Raul
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#19270
12/18/2009 10:05 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
To be honest Ferraris are over rated, I have had two and they are unreliable, stink of fuel when you start them and burn clutches like most fires burn wood. I have a Porsche Turbo at the moment and it is a lovely car! also working on an 800BHP nissan project show car that uses NOS. http://www.project300tt.com/ I have not updated the site for a bit, but have a look under mechanicals to see what is just going under the bonnet. Apart from expensive cars my other love in life is expensive lawyers .
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#19271
12/18/2009 03:11 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1
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Posts: 7,259 Likes: 1 |
Hey Mongo: I knew your thoughts on Ferraris but under the circumstances I felt my comment was appropriate. Do you have a law firm on retainer? Jim
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#19272
12/18/2009 04:34 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,945
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Nasty looking beast.Keep us updated.
You know you're over the hill when "Happy Hour" means Nap Time
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#19273
12/18/2009 06:13 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
The Honor Dagger matter has now been sorted out . I can honestly say it has been very stressful, and although I would not want to play "piggy in the middle again" it got this whole mess sorted out. Cut a very long story short, as well as leaving out all the nasty details, Chris wired me the money today. In exchange he got a legal undertaking stating the matter was fully settled that Matt had drawn up. I confirmed I had the cash, rushed down the bank drew it out and sent the maximum allowable (�5000) five minutes later by western union. Because the western union charges were �185 and Matt paid for the legal letter I paid the charges on top out of my own money as a good will gesture. And will do the same with his remaining money on Monday. But rest assured that all the cash is either in the US right now or in my possesion. On top of that good title has been restored and I think everyone will be having a drink tonight. Matt is a really nice guy and im pleased he has now got his money . I still have the dagger and the satisfaction of knowing he got paid, and Chris has his legal undertaking that the whole thing is concluded now and his obligations are settled. Shame it ever got in such a mess to start with, but at least everyones legal positions are concluded. And Matt got his money this side of Christmas .
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#19274
12/18/2009 06:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
Jim you are nearly right about my Lawyers, but on the upside maybe this hobby needed cleaning up a bit . And lets just say having a reputatation for going the whole way and having the money to do it with might have played a factor in helping things along here .
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#19275
12/18/2009 08:54 PM
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Posts: 323
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Chris' rep is still ****.
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#19276
12/18/2009 09:12 PM
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Posts: 722 Likes: 1
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Thats great news mongobongo , glad it all got sorted out in the end mate Merry Xmas & All The Best For 2010 Regards Scott.
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#19277
12/18/2009 09:26 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,610 Likes: 8
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Posts: 1,610 Likes: 8 |
Hi Mongo i am so glad you got this mess finally sorted and managed to keep the dagger. A Happy christmas for all concerned. Sean P.S. will we be seeing this car at santa pod next year
Regards Sean
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#19278
12/18/2009 10:09 PM
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Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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and I thought I had already seen "The Great Escape"
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#19279
12/18/2009 10:18 PM
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Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18 |
As I stated in this thread and on that OTHER forum, this is the best of all possible outcomes:
1) Mongo gets to keep the dagger and any issues about its modifications or reworking are his to enjoy.
2) Matt gets way more money than he had originally expected and doesn't have to worry about going through this again with a dagger that has had so much publicity, good and bad.
3) Chris doesn't get to profit from this fiasco and now has the grounds of doing right to start rebuilding his lost reputation and credibility.
Good news all around and a very and well-deserved Merry Christmas to all.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#19280
12/18/2009 10:57 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
Matt got the amount he and chris agreed on, not what I paid for the piece.
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#19281
12/18/2009 11:12 PM
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Posts: 2,365
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I'm glad that everything has been worked but it's a shame that it happened at all.
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#19282
12/18/2009 11:15 PM
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Posts: 180
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quote: Originally posted by Skynyrd:
Guys, it has already been established, by mongo himself, that mongo altered the dagger, not Ailsby.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if this is going to be endlessly debated, we might as well at least be accurate.
As I understand the threads, Matt sent the dagger to Ailsby in original condition. Mongo bought the dagger from Ailsby, and it had been messed with. Mongo then decided the condition was bad enough to warrant a full restoration. So the dagger must have been messed with while in Ailsby's custody. So Ailsby not only trashed his reputation, he trashed a perfectly good, untouched damascus dagger.
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#19283
12/18/2009 11:21 PM
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Posts: 435
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I can't, for the life of me, see why Mongo has to pay the fees on sending the money!! I would have made Ailsby pay every last red cent! He got off FAR too leniently in my opinion.
If you want to criticise someone first walk a mile in their shoes. Then, when they come after you, you'll be a mile ahead and they'll be barefoot.
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#19284
12/18/2009 11:37 PM
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Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
Matt did not get the extra money so sez Mr. Mongo. Methinks SOMEONE made some big money off this crooked deal. I wonder who.??????????????????????????? This "deal" looks even worse with this revelation.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#19285
12/18/2009 11:37 PM
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Posts: 1,689
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OP
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Posts: 1,689 |
Believe me if you knew what went into getting this sorted out, then me paying the fees was the least of it Im just happy to have it sorted out and really have done everything I can to help sort this mess out. Matt is happy he finally has the money.
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#19286
12/18/2009 11:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 288
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 288 |
quote: Originally posted by Houston Coates: Matt did not get the extra money so sez Mr. Mongo. Methinks SOMEONE made some big money off this crooked deal. I wonder who.??????????????????????????? This "deal" looks even worse with this revelation.
Dear Houston. This posting is said whit my total respect for you and your knowlage. Here is my point of view: Rather then pointing fingers at whome made the money in this deal and that it could/should have been an better ending at this, you could come forward whit an solution that you feel is better that the made one. This deal is an ugly one from the beginning to the end. I personally feel that the original seller and the end buyer have been fooled in this deal. I totally agree the mr A is the crock here. This mess is 100% total his fault and realy should be his to solve. The end buyer has now done over top what he is exspected to do as an buyer from a "serious" dealer. So, rather then pointing fingers and telling the comunity that this deal should have been solved in an better matter, we should be positive that it got an "happy ending". Again, my total respect for you Houston, but also to mongobongo for solving this mess. Best Regards St�le
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#19287
12/18/2009 11:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
Ahhhh--Yes--All quiet on the Western front. Silence is truly telling--is it not?
Matt--IMO you got the shaft-twice. You should have DEMANDED that the dagger be returned or that you got close or full retail for it.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#19288
12/19/2009 12:26 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,126 Likes: 1 |
I am disappointed to learn that Ailsby has apparently made a tidy profit after all, I was hoping he'd get nailed to the wall for his criminal intent and dishonorable conduct.
Doug
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#19289
12/19/2009 12:48 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 323
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 323 |
It appears Chris is still a member here. After he is done counting his ill-gotten gains perhaps he will enlighten us with a quick briefing on his business model. There are still quite a few people here that think he is a stand up guy. Of course if he doesn't come here feel free to say it to his face here on his forum: http://www.stirnpanzer.com/forum/
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#19290
12/19/2009 01:01 AM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 147 |
Is it right that Ailsby remains a member here given his attitude and behaviour.
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#19291
12/19/2009 04:08 AM
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 98
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 98 |
This whole deal is pathetic and just plain wrong. The original owner who happens to be the person that needs the money the most and on top of that is a veteran for Christ sake is the one who loses. You gentlemen have done something totally wrong. ALL the money belongs to Matt's uncle. Here you guys are talking about Ferraris while Chris continues to write books and make a ton of cash etc etc. What about the old timer? How long do you think that a mere 6000 pounds will last? Mondobongo I have nothing against you but you know where that dagger belongs. You keep the dagger like you intended to in the first place and Chris gets some cash from this ? You should have received your money like you did and returned Matt's dagger even if you did not want to. It is not yours. Then you should have dealt directly with Matt and offered to buy it from him. He wanted the dagger. Thats what he said. This type of thing frustrates me so much because there is no gratitude. there is no respect towards this man. Shame on both of you.
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#19292
12/19/2009 09:53 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689
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OP
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,689 |
Matt always only wanted his money, he only wanted the dagger back as he could never get that. I really bust my ass to help get it for him, dont take my word for it ask Matt?
Dont think getting this result in the circumstances was simple... far from it. I cant be personally financially responsible for every deal that goes down because you think I "can afford" to be screwed. He and his uncle wanted me to keep the dagger, I have been more than helpful in sorting this mess out.
So how dare you pull this crap on me, you dont know the half of what went on here. I am a very honest guy who has consistently done the right thing here. The nature of your comments sicken me to be honest.
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#19293
12/19/2009 10:27 AM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 41
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 41 |
Far from being an ideal end to all this,it is
at least some solution to what was a very difficult situation.Mongobongo did the right
thing,and tried to resolve the problem the
best he could. I don,t think he should be blamed
for that. As for the wretched Ailsby, he should
be left to stew in his own fecal matter, his
reputation in tatters.
John Rosser
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#19294
12/19/2009 12:37 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 435
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 435 |
Mongo. Why don't you fill us all in on what you had to do to rectify the problem (even though you were faultless in it) just to shut up the ****heads who give you grief for daring to keep what you paid good money for?
If you want to criticise someone first walk a mile in their shoes. Then, when they come after you, you'll be a mile ahead and they'll be barefoot.
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#19295
12/19/2009 01:32 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,414
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,414 |
quote: Originally posted by rgaraymd: This whole deal is pathetic and just plain wrong. The original owner who happens to be the person that needs the money the most and on top of that is a veteran for Christ sake is the one who loses. You gentlemen have done something totally wrong. ALL the money belongs to Matt's uncle. Here you guys are talking about Ferraris while Chris continues to write books and make a ton of cash etc etc. What about the old timer? How long do you think that a mere 6000 pounds will last? Mondobongo I have nothing against you but you know where that dagger belongs. You keep the dagger like you intended to in the first place and Chris gets some cash from this ? You should have received your money like you did and returned Matt's dagger even if you did not want to. It is not yours. Then you should have dealt directly with Matt and offered to buy it from him. He wanted the dagger. Thats what he said. This type of thing frustrates me so much because there is no gratitude. there is no respect towards this man. Shame on both of you.
,,wha tha? (are you kidding?) If MongoBongo wasn't the gentleman that he is, where do you think this SCAM would be right now? In FULL force, that's where. (@ almost two years, nearing the statute of limitations as well.) I wonder if this dagger got this much attention during the war?
In Memory of Joe Mann
Medal of Honor Recipient
July 8, 1922 �
September 19, 1944
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#19296
12/19/2009 01:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 147
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 147 |
Guns Mr Nolan, I see no Guns!
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#19297
12/19/2009 01:54 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 39
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 39 |
quote: Originally posted by mongobongo:
Matt always only wanted his money, he only wanted the dagger back as he could never get that. I really bust my ass to help get it for him, dont take my word for it ask Matt?
Dont think getting this result in the circumstances was simple... far from it. I cant be personally financially responsible for every deal that goes down because you think I "can afford" to be screwed. He and his uncle wanted me to keep the dagger, I have been more than helpful in sorting this mess out.
So how dare you pull this crap on me, you dont know the half of what went on here. I am a very honest guy who has consistently done the right thing here. The nature of your comments sicken me to be honest.
I agree.
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#19298
12/19/2009 02:33 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 254
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 254 |
Every last word I have read about Mongobongo during this incident from beginning to end on this forum and others show him in the brightest possible light. His business and ethical standards are about the highest I have seen. Praises to you my friend. Charlie
<BR>
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#19299
12/19/2009 02:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 7,229 Likes: 1 |
The one thing that has not been said about this rotten deal and the new "agreement" is--WHO GOT THE EXTRA MONEY? Once that is clearly stated -this thread is over.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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#19300
12/19/2009 02:51 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 323
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 323 |
As of right now Chris is still a member in good standing here so maybe if he's done counting it he will drop in and tell us how much ahead he is. This and his own forum are the last two places on the net where he has not been banned.
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#19301
12/19/2009 02:51 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,097 Likes: 99
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 15,097 Likes: 99 |
Since you cannot discuss this without insults, I am closing the topic.
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