UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum grip color

Very interesting experiment Dion, it�s amazing
it can change colour so fast, thanks for sharing your knowledge in this matter.
Best, Hakan

I still doubt if the orange & yellow grips on the thousands of daggers I've seen in the last 30 years were the result of being left in sunlight , or any light for that matter. Most were packed away and not on display. I think only a few were left in direct sunlight daily for any amount of time.
Your experiment is interesting none the less. I've been tempted to do the sun lamp trick that was mentioned here some time ago. According to that gentleman, you can turn the grip any color you want. Could you try it with a third peice of your broken grip?
Did you happen to see the photo of the Luft EM sitting at a desk with two daggers behind him? One has a white grip while the other looks orange. Maybe the orange grip one was closer to the window.

Unless the original Luftwaffe owners never wore their daggers in public. And left them sealed in bags, or put away in desk drawers, or closets etc. The exposure to light was initiated +/- 70 years ago as seen in the photograph posted in the adjoining thread mentioned. As for the lighter color grip of the two in the photograph. If the lighter colored grip in the picture was brand new, or a urea, or casein, or a celluloid plastic. I don�t think there would be much (if any) of a visible change in color.

As I think I may have mentioned some time back in this thread. The Catalin Company which was a major period U.S. manufacturer of cast phenolic resins, having a similar status to the Dynamit/Nobel Company in Germany. Experienced a very high failure rate (90%) trying to select materials that would not change color. One of the tests that they used was exposure to a carbon arc light as a way of accelerating exposure to ultraviolet light.

I think Dion�s very interesting experiment clearly shows that a color change is in fact taking place right before our eyes. And light seems to be a dominate factor in the change. FP

I try not to discuss topics in terms of always & never. Few things in life are 100% either way.
My point is that even if the Luft Officers wore their daggers only on sunny days on the parade grounds, the rest of the time they would be packed away. I don't think many Officers kept their daggers on window sills.
I also believe most, not all, vets daggers ended up packed away as well. The % of time they were exposed has to be very small.
I have been collecting daggers for over 30 years and I haven't noticed the grips getting any darker. The yellows are still yellow, not orange.
If the color change is due to light, it must have been very quick and varied by phenolic resin batch. It also must have had a limit on the amount each batch would change. Otherwise there would not be so many shades of yellow & orange.
I do have to admit that there are very few photographs of darker colored grips and that is the strongest point I have seen so far.

Here's a grip that must have been behind a screen in a heated room. I just can't figure out how the top of the grip under the knot got so dark. This dagger is currently for sale on Tom Wittmann's site. I asked If I could post the photo & he agreed.
To be fair, Tom believe's that the grip was not sold like this.

looks like a `blood orange`, beautiful.

These spotted grips show up now and then. Nothing too mysterious about them, this is a result of the pigments being incompletely mixed when the resin to make the grips was made. The result is little globs of incompletely mixed resin which changed color more quickly than the suttounging material. It probably did take some time before the spots became visable.
This has been discussed and explained in depth before by Frogprince in the past.

Here is part of a recent exchange of emails between LTC Tom Johnson and myself concerning the "Grip Color Theory".

Dear �Notaguru:�

I have been reading with interest the long drawn out discussions on the German
Daggers forum about all white versus colored dagger grips. I think we should be
able to put the matter to rest if all of the �all white� advocates would
have a look at the 1960 photographs that appear on pages 29 and 36 of my Volume
II of Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich. They show a huge
grouping of 2nd Model Luftwaffe pommels, crossguards, and grips for the 2nd
Model Luftwaffe, Army, and TENO Officer�s daggers located by Jim Atwood in the
cellar of the Carl Eickhorn firm in Solingen during 1960.

A close study of the picture appearing on page 36 on the left will reveal that
all of the grips are not the same color. Some are very light, while others are
quite dark. Since all of the grips that Jim got initially from the Eickhorn
company were subjected to the same room temperature, humidity, and light
conditions in the basement of the Eickhorn factory, it would appear that grips
were, indeed, manufactured in various colors.

Futhermore, as you and most dagger collectors know, Brian, I had the opportunity
in the early 1970�s to purchase from Jim Atwood practically all of the
original parts that he acquired in Solingen in 1960. I can tell you without
question that I bought boxes of yellow 2nd Model Luftwaffe and Army grips, some
white over wood base Army and 2nd Model Luftwaffe grips, some solid white 2nd
Model Luftwaffe grips, and a large selection of TENO Officer�s grips, some of
which were light yellow and some closer to orange in color, and also a large
grouping of solid black 2nd Model Luftwaffe grips (obviously, Robert Klaas was
not the only manufacturer of the so-called �funeral� dagger). Since Jim
stored all of these parts in his outbuilding on his island in Savannah, I can
tell you that each grip was subjected to the same temperature, humidity, there,
as well.

Additionally, Vic Diehl has provided in this thread some critical information on
this subject. The one source of information that even skeptical collectors
accept as being valid is an original 1930�s Solingen factory sales catalog.
Vic is absolutely correct that the ultra-rare SMF catalog in the Klingenmuseum
in Solingen shows �non-white� 2nd Luftwaffe grips.


Sincerely Yours,

LTC (Ret) Thomas M. Johnson
President
Johnson Reference Books & Militaria

TMJ:spb


Dear Tom:
I've just about given up discussing this subject. It has become like a religion. Actual period color and B&W photos really mean nothing to a lot of collectors. They are convinced that some grips turned dark almost upon sale from the factory while the rest
turned various shades due to the proverbial heated sock drawer in the attic by
the window.
Having worked for 3 different German engineering and manufacturing companies for
a few years, I can tell you that the bosses I had would never have produced,
sold or bought such an unstable product as this. Can you imagine the
embarassment the CEO of Hoescht when the 2nd Model Luft Generals white sword
grip turned the same orange as a 1st LT's dagger? There might be a few red faces
over that one and more than a few people looking for jobs.
Like I said, I've just about given up, but I love beating this dead
horse.
Brian

Im still on the sode of Craig G. on this one

1. I collect period studio portraits of daggers in wear. ALL the Heer and 2rd Luft grips are white-ish or ivory color. the same for my Heereskleiderkasse catalogue, and Hettler�s period reference which has color images.

2. Personal testimony of original wearer Hans Mehrle which I shared here

3. Daggers I own with grip area under portepee whiter than the rest

Very interesting thread guys.

Here are some varietys in my collection.

Close-up of the grips.

You know,whatever the rationale,the color variety sure adds a touch of pizazz to the
total appearance of certain dagger types and I certainly love to see them.
Seiler (yank in UK)

I have to agree, the Wide spectre of variaty in the grips are some of the most fascinating things about German daggers.

Most of them are absolutely beautiful.

I thought the topic had run its course - but if I�m understanding it correctly a three prong argument is being made to prove that grips were made in colors (aside from black which is a separate issue).

1) That�s the way they were found as leftover (from the war) parts in colors.

No argument there. However, most organic substances by their inherent nature tend to be unstable. Some more than others, and man made ones are no exception. For example: Never used 70 year old automobile tires stored away from the elements in a warehouse are not going to be as good as new ones (they age, get hard etc). The point being that over time chemical degradation takes place, sunlight or no sunlight, with some items simply being more stable.

2) An SMF catalog proves that they were made in colors.

Already discussed. Quasi Art-Deco artist's interpretations in a sales catalog are not a reliable substitute for anything other than that is how the artist chose to present them.

3) German engineers never would have developed such an unstable product.

If anyone thinks that only plastics were problematic, they should look at some of the steels used to make the blades. By today�s standards some are not only grossly different in terms of standardization. There was also a pronounced spillover effect on the quality (or lack of) in some of the steels. The point being that sometimes it is a �trial and error� process even now - to see how something actually works (or how long it lasts). And 70 years ago (plus or minus) was no exception.

PS: I also find the different colored dagger handles very attractive. Part of my original concern was with guys who were selling them at a premium as �special factory orders� versus simply legitimate period items that had aged a little. Also, my compliments on some very good looking daggers. FP

Thanks FP.

What can I say, you gotta love these daggers.

Frogprince:
So the determing factor in color change is not sunlight, heat or where it's stored, it is just time. If that is the case why are there still white Trolon grips? Are they made of better grade Trolon? If it's not sunlight why would the grips be lighter under the knot?
To dismiss the SMF catalog drawing out of hand reminds me of Global Warming, "The debate is over". Why is it over? Because we say so. I find it amazing that the artist doing the catalog would choose the same colors some of these grips turned. He must have been related to Kreskin.
Many of these daggers were produced early in the TR period. Wartime shortages and lack of skilled workers would not have been a problem. I worked for Hoescht for several years. I saw how the attention to detail increased as the level of authority increased. I still can't believe that the subordinates to a General would not have noticed the color change in his 2nd Model sword grip. The big boys I knew would have switched that out immediatly, Even if they had to have a box of them standing by.
I wonder if when Atwood found the boxes of different colored grips were they yellow, white or orange in separate boxes? Or where they mixed? That could tell you something.
Brian Rich

This can be a problem. Mine have ALL turned black.

Dave

Now Dave, that's cheating. Obviously you've been using the sunlamp.

I love this one -----

Quasi Art-Deco artist's interpretations in a sales catalog are not a reliable substitute for anything other than that is how the artist chose to present them.

Amen-white is right. Just cut any junk grip in half.

Brian, I wish there was a short answer, but I'm afraid that it will necessarily be a little longer than I would like.

* As I think I mentioned earlier, the Catalin Corporation in the U.S. had a 90% failure rate testing for suitable materials to be used in cast phenolic resin products. The cast phenolic resins were made in (relatively) small batches. And anybody who has ever mixed paints to achieve a certain color by hand, knows (or has a reasonable expectation) that no two batches will ever be exactly the same. And with hundreds or thousands of batches? My point being that normal batch variations easily account for any differences in composition/color.

There were only a limited number of commercially available plastics to period makers. The first thermosetting plastic was Phenol-Formaldehyde Bakelite). As a molded product it was available in darker colors such as black or brown (like the bayonet/pistol grips.) Desiring colors a (relatively) lower temperature (as manufactured) product was developed that was cast (ie: "Trolon" made by Dynamit Nobel AG, and other German makers, and the Catalin Corporation in the U.S which was a licensee).

The problem was colorfastness with the cast phenolics. And consequently the Urea-Formaldehyde�s were developed. Also made by the Dynamit Nobel firm, the trade name for their brand of that particular amino plastic was called "Troplast". While there were multiple U.S. makers, one item of interest to collectors might be "Coltwood" pistol grips which were a Urea-Formaldehyde plastic. Still later, with the U.S. at some point taking the commercial lead, the Melamine-Formaldehyde's were developed which had among other things better water resistance. Both the Urea and Melamine plastics are colorfast (and available in colors). With one being just a little bit better than the other in certain characteristics - but both infinitely better than the cast phenolics.

My point being the still white thermosetting plastic grips are most probably a Urea-Formaldehyde versus a Phenol Formaldehyde (Bakelite). And while I'm open to the possibility of a Melamine-Formaldehyde, I don't think that it was as readily commercially available until fairly late.

* I also don�t completely dismiss the SMF catalog - but as a piece of evidence how much weight do you give it? 100%? 50%? 5%? As just one piece of evidence - how does it stack up against all of the other evidence?

* The �wartime� shortages started a long time before a shot was ever fired in the late 1930�s. And it probably was not as much a lack of workers (at first), but a lack of suitable materials forcing changes to substitutes.

* If a general had wanted one, I would imagine that he could easily enough have had an ivory grip. Ivory gripped swords I have have a light yellow or off color tint. So I�m not 100% convinced that a general would have cared as much about a color change during the limited number of years left before the war ended. And with the fact that they could not carry swords (versus pistols) towards the end, I imagine they would have had other more important things on their minds.

* As for speculating if Atwood's grips were found in separate white, yellow, orange, black (etc.) boxes?? We will probably never know. But wouldn�t some of the catalogs have had a listing for colors like they do for ivory?

For Dave: VERY NICE! - but SPF 10000 would not help those puppies. Waaay too much sunlight!!

For Vic: Help me out. How would you describe the drawings??

Best Regards to All, FP

Whatever the answer is to the enigma of the 'orginal' colour theory, no-one has ever come up with an explanation for the amber/glass variety.

Nolan

Brian-There are no solid white trolon grips-at least -I have never seen one. The original white grips that still exist are IMO not trolon. We have gone over this MANY times. The bottom line is still--just cut any junk colored trolon grip in half and you will see it is white. Why is this not the "end of story" ?? I have seen the Atwood photo-so what? Who knows what those grips were made of? Who knows if they all came from the same company at the same time? They were just there-left over.
The "glass" ones? Not trolon--but it would be interesting to cut a junky one in half.

One last question and then I'll let this drop. Has anyone seen even a photo of a 2nd Model Luft Generals Degen with a white or ivory grip?

Fools rush in, where angels fear to tread.

Anyway, I have never had a problem with the idea that grips were originally manufactured in white. The historical precedent for that color has long been established in Imperial military daggers. It is pretty obvious that many of these grips turned different shades of yellow and orange over time.

The SMF catalogue is not a one off artist coffee table book. It was published for consumption during the period. By the later time that catalogue was printed I expect the grip color changes were being seen so they were included in the catalogue.

quote:

Originally posted by Houston Coates:
Brian-There are no solid white trolon grips-at least -I have never seen one. The original white grips that still exist are IMO not trolon. We have gone over this MANY times. The bottom line is still--just cut any junk colored trolon grip in half and you will see it is white. Why is this not the "end of story" ?? I have seen the Atwood photo-so what? Who knows what those grips were made of? Who knows if they all came from the same company at the same time? They were just there-left over.
The "glass" ones? Not trolon--but it would be interesting to cut a junky one in half.

Houston, when Craig was deep into this I sent him a 2nd Luft grip that I was puzzled about, after an exchange of emails I allowed him to remove some material from the pommel and ferrule areas and Craig reckoned it was a 'glass type' grip which was 'orange' throughout. Getting hold of a scrap glass grip to cut in half is a pretty tall order. IMO the glass or amber ones will be uniform.

Nolan

This one just sold for �52


source eban

Darkened grip??

52 EURO????

Nice one Gus - it definately doesn't look like a white grip.

Regards
Russ

I think Gus is referring to the picture not the dagger

Nolan

Hi,

I mentioned on another thread that I saw a coloured grip on a documentary about Eva Braun, I have waited about 3 months befor I saw the documentary again, and, with my camera in hand, I took the picture below from the TV. It shows Eva Braun and 2 other ladies with a german officer. You can clearly see the colour of the grip in NOT white but dark yellow/light pumpkin.

As Eva Braun obviously died befor the end of the war I beleive this answers the question. The documentary was called Hitlers Women : Eva Braun, the picture appeared about 45 minutes into the film. The imgae is small to fit on the site, if anyone wants a larger copy drop me an email.

close up of grip.

WOW!
Finally a period color photo!!!
GREAT JOB!
That is definately NOT white!
Well done!

Johnny

Great pic - maybe it's Eva's father. There is a colour pic of him with an orange/yellow handled dagger taken from a doco shown earlier in this thread on page 4.

Regards

Russ

Very interesting. I hope more color photos see the light of day.

Dave

Depends on how old the dagger was when the pic was taken, could have still strted off white, not a theory I subscribe to, but I'm sure the "they all started out white" brigade will jump all over it.there is no time span given for the transition from white to orange, the guy in pic could have worn the dagger regulary and exposed it to sunlight for a few years, good pic though and a filip for those who believe there was more than one grip color available.

What about those multi coloured yellow with orange flecks ones that Tom Johnson shows in one of his books in the box they were found in at a factory had they been exposed to light?
Suspect not IMO