UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum grip color

I have a couple questions about army and luft grip colors. What were the colors issued? Was the color meaningful to the rank or position? What causes color change in these grips and in what way? Thanks

I believe the first colors issued were white and yellow.However,I seem to recall discussion about the effects of sunlight, And the specific mixtures of the grips composition.I have heard the "Punkin"color variants are the most "Rare"..G.

Geoff is correct in that the grips were produced in both white and yellow. As for the other colors \ shades those happened via some chemical reaction over time. The grips (most not all) are made of trolon~celluloid that is either solid or over wood or plaster.

Not unlike wine I guess some get better i.e. more valuable over time due to the color they take on. I have seen some pictiures of very dark colored grips that look almost black hence the name funeral grip but I have never read anything that shows proof that it was a variation that could have been purchased during the war.

Since I am by far not an expert in this field you should wait until one or more of the more of the old hares chime in

Regards,

John

A whole story for sure!

Some grips are killer!

I have seen many members show some
dandys!

Many we can see change from knot removed
etc.!

Craig must have his article pegged some place!

It gets deep if I recall and all the opinions!

Some say white! Some say no!

I like color!


PVON

One thing I know for sure is I dropped a deep orange grip on the floor and it was light yellow in the core. Ouch!

Hey P, you teasing me with that dagger cause I got $300 right now.

One of the most enduring and longest topics ever on GDC was surely Craig's grip colour theory.
Craig reckons every trolon grip started out as white!!

Thanks for the input guys. I followed the grip color discussion but didn't know if anything definitive came out of it. Is there any period reference to grip colors in advertisements? If grips were all white when manufactured, when did they start changing color? Are grips darker color than they were fifty years ago or did they change quickly after they were produced?

As stated the grips were white when they left the factory. But the topic involves some background of what was happening in the German chemical/plastics industry at that time as a background for some of the variations seen. Trolon itself was the trade name for a cast phenol-formaldehyde plastic resin (Bakelite) made by the Dynamit AG (Dynamit-Nobel) company in Troisdorf Germany. Which during the time of the Third Reich was one of the companies which made cast phenolic resins. Early commercially made Bakelite was molded only in dark colors. The cast resins were part of a large scale effort to manufacture whites and lighter colors first in Germany, the U.S., and other nations. With the Germans as the premier synthetic dye makers of the era leading the way.

While it is a widely known phenomena in multiple collector groups now. No one knew back then that because of the synthetic dyes used to make the grips - with age, heat, and especially exposure to sunlight - that cast phenolic resins gradually would begin to decompose at the surface. It is byproducts from the decomposition which causes the various colors to change, white grips to turn to yellow, orange (etc.). And similar color changes to the many other multicolored objects made from the cast resins (as a rule the longer the exposure to what causes the color change the more an object will turn darken/turn color).

The Germans were aware of the problem. But were never able to fix it. And they concurrently developed a number of variant resins which did not have the problems of the cast phenolic resins. And as other more stable/cost effective plastics were developed and put into production the cast phenolic resins eventually became a thing of the past. But during the time of the Third Reich any slight color changes probably would not cause much in the way of ripples in the industry because for daggers the cast resins would have mimicked to some extent Ivory grips which also turn color when they age (yellow not orange). And they already had an investment in the equipment used to make the cast resins which was geared to smaller production quantities.

What really caused the grips to be discontinued was the fact that companies like Dynamit AG was an explosives and ammunition maker. And it and others increasingly had demands placed on them for war material. Which coupled with a shortage of raw materials forced dagger makers to turn to substitutes. FP

FP- Fascinating info.
Truly a well written explination to what was one of my own unanswered questions.
Knowledge like yours is what makes GDC such a valuble resource.
THANKS!

Thanks FP! That answers a lot of questions.

Which brings up more questions. What would cause this? It seems that this grip is darker in the grooves than on the high spots. Under a loop tool lines can still be seen in the grooves. The high spots are much smoother but not as dark. Why would or does the same material become different colors?

I should also add that this has not been messed with IMO and did not have wire on the grip.

If a grip was allowed to age without ever being handled then there would or should be a uniform (color) layer over the entire surface where it is exposed. The mere act of handling a dagger grip will remove a small portion of the topmost layer of any residue on the high points onto the user�s hands leaving the low areas intact. The more handling, the more that will likely be removed, although it will probably be microscopic and not readily noticeable. With a user�s hands in effect polishing the grip. (And it�s always possible that some previous owner, instead of just handling a dagger, was a little more aggressive and may have hand polished a grip for some reason hitting the high points in the process.)

As a matter of fact the restoration of some cast phenolic resin objects involves mechanically polishing the decomposed topmost layer off. Exposing the untouched interior which will begin the process all over again. Understanding that changes in color will happen again at the same rate as before the polishing/restoration. FP

Don't want to open a can of worms here but I am convinced that some grips were issued as yellow.
I will not comment on the trylon grip theory as I am not convinced one way or the other.
I have handled a few period painted grips that are yellow paint not white.

I don't think this dagger has been handled enough to wear the color off of the grip.

Hi Paul, That's the first I heard of dagger grips that were actually "period painted yellow"? JohnJ

I realise there are several different theories regarding grip colouration but thought I would add to the pot. I know this might sound a bit silly but from the period black & white photos that I have seen none have exhibited any suggestion of colour . HOLD ON HOLD ON, before you all start typing sarcy remarks.

Below are two pictures, both have been reverted to black and white, one is a plaster filled white and the other an orange grip Eick. Its plain to see which is which, and even a yellow grip dagger shows hue when the colour is discarded. Granted I dont have a huge selection of period photos of daggers in wear but every example I do have looks pure white to me !.

Oh no,here we go again.The "can of worms" is open!!!
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Indeed John there are period examples of painted grips out there. Here are a couple from my personal stash:

Paul- I LOVE those examples, I always thought that pieces like this would finally put to rest the 1st model railway debete... but that is for another thread.
My point is, I DO believe that your paint is period, but still doubt that it started out as yellow.
I just moved into a home that was built in the civil war, one of the rooms had paint from the 1940's. I thought it was dark beige, the owner told me that it was white... originally.
Trylon is not the only thing that changes to yellow over time.
In the last pic. that you posted you can see 2 layers of paint (on the left just beside the furrel). The base coat is much more white than the top coat. I suspect originally they were the same color. With paint it is the exposure to light and air that causes the color change. This would explain why the upper coat has turned more yellow then the base.
I work in the paint industry, we keep our color standards in little zip-lock bags (no air) in a special cabinet (no light) or else in 60 years our "pure white" standards would be as yellow as your grip.

I think Degens did a nice piece of work with the images, which illustrates the hurdles that have yet to be surmounted for believing that anything but white colored grips were used on these daggers. To the best of my knowledge there are simply no period photographs showing anything different.

And as far as the painted grips go I think that Johnny V. is right on target with his observations regarding the aging of paint. Yellowing was very common especially with the older paint formulations which included those with the natural as well as the synthetic carrier/binders.

And sometimes with period edged weapons all you can offer to explain some observed characteristic is a best guess. In the case of the light and dark colored phenolic grip, if the dagger shows no signs of being handled. Then my best guess is that somebody at some time or other polished the grip by itself hitting the high spots to create the light and dark effect. FP

It also occurs to me that if the black grip was made from something like molded phenolic resin that: a) It probably did not help the adhesion of the paint when the resin out gassed. b) Close in to the grip the immediate atmosphere around it (from out gassing) could have contributed to the aging/yellowing processes that were going on. FP

PS: Very nice examples of painted grips.

There is a series on the History Channel called WWII In Color. In the episode Why We Fight there is color footage of a G.I. showing his buddies the daggers he has. If I remember right in his waist band is a yellow handled luft or army. That is the only period color images I can remember seeing.

This is the image from the "Why we fight" episode that Nietzsche is referring to. Looks like a white handled luft, and also an SS or SA dagger as well.

Regards
Russell

Very interesting thread. I always thought the paint was yellow but now Johnny you have me questioning it.
Vern had, and maybe still does, a similar deep yellow painted Klaas grip if I recall correctly...

Exelent work Ruski. Thank you for that image. Maybe it was my tv or my eyes that made me think it was yellow. Not getting any younger you know. That is one of the best parts of that series.

This answers the questions that I had and more. Thank you everyone. These are the types of discussions that are the reason I am a member of GDC. Thanks again.

I think the image of the painted grips posted by Paul re-enforce the all white theory in that if you look at the bottom picture and see the lower layer of paint it appears white on my screen or at the very least a lighter share then the top layer or coat of paint.

To me this would indicate that it was painted white and has yellowed over time.

John

John, Using Paul�s image I�ve enlarged it, and think that I am focusing on the area that you are making reference to. I think that you are correct, and looking at it from this perspective it looks like it might be a secondary protective clear coat that is doing most of the yellowing. Which I also believe would be very typical of a number of the period coatings that were in use.

A very astute observation that I think many of us may have missed when we first looked at the pictures. (I know that I did ). Regards, FP

Now THAT is interesting. It does appear there is white paint underneath the yellow color.

I guess the way I see it, if we're proved that grips change color with age and conditions, fine. Maybe all grips did start as white. But what is to say the companies didn't age their grips and sell them with the colors they changed to?

This is not ammunition for a long drawn out heated debate on the theory that all grips started out white. When Greg first brought this theory to the collector public me and a couple of long time local collector friends talked about this and agree.
I myself don't believe this all white grip theory and neither do they. Here are some other points to ponder. Metal to non metal chemical reaction happens enough to prove wrong and must be accepted. The effects of sunlight on some objects is also a valid statement. Time,age and means of storage add to the mix.
All of these induced effects lead me to believe that the most rare sought after and desireable grips would be the white grips.
Because somehow they resisted all of these conditions that all of the others failed to handle and relented to the color change.
In John Angolias book "Swords Of Germany 1900/1945" on page 194 he writes about the 2nd model Luftwaffe Generals Sword.
In the second sentence he states, and I quote word for word;
"The plastic grip varied in color from yellow to orange (not white),and was with a twist wire running diagonally."
This being the case does it not make sense that Dagger makers would offer various grip colors to Officers who had the clout to private purchase these instead of the standard issue white grips.
I have included a photo of pieces of a second model Luftwaffe Dagger grip. The outer burnt orange color is probably from the effects listed above.As well with the inner wall of the tang hole except for sunlight exposure. But beyond that it is yellow all the way to the tang hole.
Just my two cents and personal opinion.

Good points - To add to the mix I happen to have a wood core on one of mine and the color is the same from outside to inside. How about anyone else? Also how about the plaster ones?

Regards,

John

The shell over wood or plaster is white celluloid which maintained a white color over the years with very little change, as a rule.

Here is a set of trolon grips for a Teno Leader. I believe that the color on these 4 grips started out as white. The change in the color was apparently the result of environmental exposure - maybe to sulfur (dioxide or mercaptans) or heavy duty armpit emissions or whatever. Something definitely changed the color.

quote:

or heavy duty armpit emissions or whatever

LOL at this one

Manfred, depends on the deodorant,anti-perspirant or BO juice collectors use.
Beautiful Daggers you have there. You always have the best.
But just think about the excitement of finding a rare white grip version on a hunt.

Now watch buddy, maybe someone if not you will show a picture of one.
Did you get my last email?

Donnie: I think I got your email, it was kinda short. And thanks for the complement.
The dagger on the left is mine, the other one belongs to a friend. He just bought this dagger on ebay for $250. It had been advertised as a reproduction army dagger and was pretty dirty, so I cleaned it up a bit. I thought he could have done better if it came with a free set of hangers. But nowadays deals just ain't what they used to be. In this business one always gets boinkered.

Gentlemen,
I hope that you will forgive me but I just had to get my two bits worth in. My intent is not to rock the boat, so to speak, but the dagger manufacturers offered these handles in a variety of colors and materials from the very beginning. What brought about my butting in are the above Teno grips. Were they to have ever been all white the portion of the top end and the bottom end of the grips would still be white and not a match for the larger "exposed" areas. They are overall the original grip color. My opinion is that we see a lot of white grips in period photos because they look like the more expensive ivory. Original period catalogs offer the different grip colors. Please understand I do not mean to offend anyone.
Regards,
Dick Pumphrey

IMO all the grip color theories do forget one simple but main aspect: The history of grip material.
Dagger grip materials always have been white bone, ivory (also white), amber, horn (black), stag horn (not relevant in this discussion about army/navy/luft dagger grips) and wood (concerning color also not relevant her).
Therefore it was the intention to replace these "normal" but expensive (for mass production) grip materials by modern, much more cheap materials that did resemble the former ones at least in color.
Therefore we do find white, yellow and black (no navies) gripped army/navy/luft daggers.
I for myselfe am totaly sure that the chemists of the 3.R period did knew very well about color changes to deeper yellow on those certain grips and it has been a desired efect. Yellow WAS a DESIRED grip color (think of the "glas" grips which for sure COULD NOT start their life as white grips).
It is also absolutely obvious that the 3.R chemists also could manufacture full white grips which remained white (have you ever seen a yellow grip forrest dagger or a yellow gripped TN hewer?).

It has been recently explained to me that the �glass� grips were not made from sand/silica but from a plastic resin. That was something that I did not know because I had assumed that �glass� meant �glass�. And that it was just something that I had not seen before as a physical material that dagger grips were made from. Instead (if I understand it correctly) it�s a term used by collectors to describe a dagger grip�s translucent appearance.

Natural ivory tends to yellow with age. And as I said earlier if a cast phenolic resin grip turned color and darkened I don�t think that that it would have caused any significant ripples in the dagger industry. And it may even be that some grips were made in an off white color (?).

Where I might have some disagreement is in the catalog descriptions of the grips. Ivory and celluloid grips are listed in various places. But the primary material for Army and Luftwaffe daggers seems to be white plastic (not yellow or orange). Does anyone have a catalog that says different?

PS: I seriously doubt that color changes were a �desired� end result for the cast phenolic resins. By the 1950�s the primary U.S. producer of cast phenolic resins had removed them from its product line - while the molded phenolic resins continued in production. And in Third Reich Germany the Austrian developed urea formaldehyde resins (which were not subject to color changes) were being produced by I.G. Farbenindustrie and others. And Dynamit AG (the maker of Trolon) made a hybrid melamine molding compound. But its hard to say how much impact the urea/melamine resins had on dagger grip manufacture before dagger production was terminated. FP

just a short note on the catalog - I was looking at a post on another forum of an early Eickhorn (orange grip) sitting on an Eick catalog - the BW photo made the grip appear white... the poster also posted a grey scale photo of the same photo and the orange grip appeared to be just like the one in the catalog. A bit more fuel on the fire

Gentlemen,
This thing can be hashed and rehashed for years to come. "Vetter" told me about this discussion concerning this when it was ongoing earlier. I am totally 100% convinced that all grips did not start out in life as white. I even contacted Jack Angolia several days ago and he agreed with me as to the range of colors being available from day one. Anyone doubting this can contact me and I will share Jack's email address and they can ask him the same thing and get the same reply. I would include it here but his answer was rather blunt. Grips came in a variety of colors. Even Col. Atwood stated this in his very early book and he had spent long hours with the makers and received his information first hand. Think what you may - I rest my case.
Regards,
Dick Pumphrey

I back up Dicks comment. Yes he is a long time best friend. He is also an early serious collector that turned my strong interest in the hobby to a life long way of life serious collector. Some of the keepers in my collection came from Dick. Doubt of original or not is never present when 100% trust is shared.
Dick forwared the email he received from John Angolia. John and Dick have been long time friends which is evident in the text.
When I read it I thought all collectors should see this.
But being a private email I feel it is not for public viewing without Angolias permission.
Dick and I discussed this on the phone and with Johns permission one of us will post it.

Its Cool.

I have a great deal of respect for Jack Angolia, and he may even be the one who has the original source material that might finally settle the matter one way or the other. Jim Atwood was instrumental in getting the hobby started and is owed a debt of gratitude for doing so. But like many folks, from time to time, he was not infallible. And I think he may have been the one who first used the term �anodized� (presumably when confronted with a scabbard finish that he did not understand). My point here being that to have made such a simple error he must not have spent enough time asking questions of the right people which can happen to anybody.

In Tom Johnson�s 2nd book: �Collecting The Edged Weapons of The Third Reich Vol. II� he had translated an article from �Die Klinge� (June 1936). Which describes what was made in Solingen during that time. When the author gets to the Army Officer�s Dagger he says: �... the beautiful white turned handle with the national insignia on the cross guard�. And from a later period WKC sales catalog when describing the Army Officer�s Dagger it says: �... fittings and scabbard with white plastic grip�. And a (2nd model) Luftwaffe dagger is also stated to have a �... white plastic grip�. I have not seen the original German text of the documentation cited. But am assuming that whoever did the translation gave a reasonably complete and accurate translation of the original material. And the above passages would seem to indicate that the appropriate color for those grips was white.

My purpose is not to be disrespectful or to challenge anyone�s opinions. I stand ready to be corrected. But what I am looking for is some actual period physical evidence. Like period factory sales material listing the different color options. Or a page from an original sales catalog with the same information. Internal factory correspondence about different grips, or a factory parts or repair catalog listing different colored grips as options, whatever is available.

If what Jack shared in his Email is original period documentation regarding different colored grips. Then I sincerely hope that he will see fit to have it shared with those who are participating in this discussion.
Most Respectfully, FP

FP, I always appriciate your writing and your detailed knowledge on the case.
How do you explain the color of those orange colored "glass" like (as stated the material is without any doubt not glass in the common sense but a slightly varying kind of "plastic" material) grips? If they started their life as orange grips why the same should be impossible for other ones?
These certain grips are scarce but not such rare that they can be looked at as an anormaly. I do own three of them and have seen a lot more during the times.

The thing I don't understand about this ongoing debate is why it couldn't be solvedby just asking a survivng German Vet or worker who knew the answer in all the years that have gone by!? JohnJ

Gentlemen,
I have just received permission from Col. Angolia to post his reply here. It is not edited for content but is not meant to offend. I hope that you will understand it is just to help with our question. Thank you.
Regards,
Dick Pumphrey

Good morning Dick,
Don't you just love these self-professed experts?! The "Old Corps" has to put up with the "New Breed" wannabees.

While certainly there was some degree of discoloration on dagger grips, to say that all started out white, and then turned to yellow and then orange is absolutly stupid.

One of the things that I did over the years was to remove the grips for inspection. I have observed grips that were pure orange throughout (from outer to inner core), black (Railway) the same, etc. I could go on. I had period sales catalogues showing the orange grips.

I could find nowhere in the Eickhorn catalogue any reference to grip color, only a distinction between plastic or genuine ivory.

Ivory absolutely does get impacted by oils in hands but not evenly.

Hope this is of some help.
Best regards, Jack

quote:

I had period sales catalogues showing the orange grips.

HAD, being the operative word here. For the sake of us new breed wannabes, how about posting for all to see and put this saga to bed .

Gentlemen,
As a bit of background information Col. Angolia has sold his collection of Third Reich material and now collects U.S. military artifacts. But, I feel sure there are other collectors that still own period dagger publications that could add to this.
Dick Pumphrey

JohnJ, It might already be too late. In correspondence with the late Anthony Carter for his last book �German Sword and Knife Makers Vol. I� he periodically mentioned the problems he was having getting information from different companies. Including those where the family was still involved in the business such as Eickhorn. A true gentleman and a diligent researcher, he kept at it for the second volume of the proposed two volume set until his very untimely demise.

Wotan, Opinion: For all of the Solingen dagger makers together as a group - I believe that there was more than one maker of the phenolic resin grips. And consequently more than one formulation for the resins. Fact: There were multiple makers of the phenolic casting resins during the Third Reich. Fact: There were multiple patents from various individuals/companies once the original Bakelite patents ran out. Fact: It was the interaction of the synthetic coal tar dyes and the phenol formaldehyde resins which was a primary root cause of the problem for the resins turning colors. Some (not necessarily related) phenolic resin formulations were known to start to turn color in hours. Others in weeks or months.

While there could be multiple different formula casting resins. Generally speaking they were clear with a dye added to modify their appearance. If an opaque filler was also added to the grip it would be more opaque. A dye only resin would tend to be more translucent. And if more dye was added to try and moderate the translucence, the potential for a more adverse chemical reaction is increased. Which could also result in more significant color changes and a greater tendency towards brittleness. Regards, FP

I greatly admire Col. Jack Angolia and most sincerely appreciate the work he put into his books. Regarding the comments posted: I don�t dispute what he observed when he disassembled and inspected those daggers that he turned his close attention to. What I don�t know is if he had an occasion to cut into an orange or yellow grip to see what color the interior was away from the surface. I mention this because one of the things that was done on the first go-around for this topic was some experimentation with dagger grips that had been sectioned. With (as I recall) the freshly cut white or cream surfaces gradually turning color to match the rest of the grip�s exterior.

What little original Eickhorn sales material I personally had went to a good friend but was oriented towards swords. Catalog covers depicting only orange dagger grips (no white examples ??) are interesting. But the extract from the WKC catalog was IMHO more to the point as was the article from �Die Klinge�. Hopefully some of the readers of this thread have some period documentation - from any maker - that they can contribute to the topic.

PS: The black grips mentioned were most probably molded phenolic resin which is really an entirely different matter. Best Regards to All. FP

Here is some additional information that I think has a bearing on the topic, that may even answer some issues as regards the physical nature of the grips as we see them now.

The U.S. company that originally acquired the rights from Germany to manufacture the cast phenolic resins did some testing to see what would work and what would not. Of the roughly two hundred dyes and pigments tested they had a failure rate of roughly 90%. The laws of the universe being the same on both sides of the Atlantic - I would imagine that researchers in Germany had comparable problems finding suitable materials to combine with the resins.

Which illustrates how multiple makers, or even a single maker, could have varied the formulation for a casting resin causing a number of grip colorations to be created as time and exposure physically altered them. And because the cast resins were made in relatively small batches, even from the same maker, no two batches are going to be exactly alike which is also going to cause some variations as grips age. In this reposted image provided by Vetter: Of interest I think are the at least four different colorations as seen with the inner core (# 3). The hole for the tang (# 5), an earlier fracture (# 1), and the original outermost part of the grip (# 4).

The image also shows how the plastic suffered multiple fractures (# 1 and # 2) before the last one showing the grip core (# 3). The manufacturing process for the cast phenolic resin is significantly different from molded phenolic resin with water intentionally being incorporated into the casting resin. Which (curiously enough) actually assists in the initial strength of a cast component in somewhat the same manner (but not as effectively) as fillers do for molded parts. The water does stay embedded for a period of time. But eventually, a significant portion finds a way to very slowly migrate out of the finished component into the atmosphere. There are two results: 1) The cast part shrinks. 2) And it becomes even more brittle. Which I think might possibly explain why the grip got broken in the first place. What I�m not sure about is if some of the grips might have been called �glass� grips because of their fragility? FP

This is from Oertzenscher Taschenkalender Fur Die Offiziere Des Heeres 1941. I shows an Army dagger with a yellow handle. Not white, not ivory.

The images are blurry in the book also.

Very interesting!
Thanks Mike for those pics. This is the first period piece of "evidence" in this debate (asside from the daggers themselves) that I have seen. I must admit that I was leaning toward that "they were all made white" side of the argument, but this changes things....

FP- Thanks for all of the valuble input!
Johnny

Period SMF catalog. Yellow grip on both the Luft 2 and the Army dagger on another page. Deutsche klingenmuseum has two copies.

Army grip--same PERIOD catalog.

Trolon refers to a form of Titanium dioxide with a binder material. The WKC catalog that refers to a "weisser Trolongriff" is simply referring to a plaster(trolon) filled grip.

Are all catalogs accurate? Do they show things that do not seem to exist? Is this really evidence? Is it a photo? Or just an artist's "impression"? Is the drawing really accurate or to scale? Or another "impression"? It would seem that the "artist" here had an "impression that the 1st Luft did not have a chain. Hmmm.

Some seem to quote "old references" and older author's here like they are the ultimate answer- They WERE great in their time.( Not Atwood's though-his was published to authenticate his garbage) BUT- Are those other references considered accurate today? OR -Are there a lot of mistakes? I don't know Jack Angolia very well but I have met and talked with him. He insisted that the Sepp Dietrich SS sword was a fake- Could he be wrong about that? How about the grip thing? Could he be wrong AGAIN? JMO. Things to think about. See ya'all at the MAX.

I�m in agreement with Houston that an artist�s impression does not always reflect reality. And the reason could even be something as simple as making an object (in this case grips) stand out from the background (?).

Also titanium oxide is normally used as a white colored pigment for things like paints, but would that matter inside a grip? And to the best of my knowledge "weisser Trolongriff" translates to 'white Trolon grip'. And �Trolon� was a specific cast phenolic resin made by the Alfred Nobel & Co. aka Dynamit AG. And the Trolon brand of 'Gusskunstharz' was an established product from the Dynamit/Nobel factory at Troisdorf in the 1930's. The factory at Troisdorf also made 'Trolitan' a molded phenolic resin, and some other types of plastic. FP

In the end does the debate impact your collecting... or it is just simplly that beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Cheers,

John

John, I think that for some the debate is way beyond the �beauty in the eye of the beholder� stage. When the topic was first presented some applauded the study, and others were less than enthusiastic. And some had very strong feelings against the possibility that the colored grips were the result of some kind of natural aging process.

Thinking about it for a moment. Jon Shallcross�s posting of what is inside that WKC catalog ie: �weisser Trolongriff� is I think fairly solid period evidence of what the company was using to make its grips which was a white plastic. And not just a generic white plastic. It was a 'brand name' from a well established German plastics manufacturer from that era. For other makers only time may tell as additional period information is posted. Regards, FP

Although not perfect, I'm sure German Commanders wanted uniformity within the ranks of each of their branches of service even down to the grip color of their daggers. I'm interested in what was authorized. It would be interesting to know what each service branch uniform regulation states if any, concerning the wear and appearance of daggers and if it states what color grip was authorized for wear. That is if these regulations exists?

Couple more Period pics.

Every bit of period evidence needs to be considered in a scientific study. Suggesting that that a major company had their staff artists color their products to stand out from the paper is not evident in any of the 24 pages of this document. I have absolutely no interest in proving or disproving any theory about grip color. Period artistic examples are very important to study.

more pictures vic

BTW Frog - my post was a bit tounge-N-cheek...

Vic,

I like the idea of taking a scientific approach, and agree with you that all of the evidence should be evaluated. Which includes artist�s drawings of the dress weapons in question. Where I might disagree some is about the artist coloring the grips to make them stand out. When I look at the paper it appears to be not really white, but white with a gray tint. And a noticeably varied selection of colored inks seems to have been used to make the grips stand out from the paper (at least IMO).

Also, looking at the images positioned next to each other (Image 1) . It seems that the artist for some reason wanted to make the pommel of the Naval dagger a lighter gold color than the sword pommel next to it. Whereas the rest appears to be more or less the same. I don�t know why that is and am assuming that it was just �artistic license�(?). Which might also account for a lack of gilt on the Luftwaffe pommel swastika and the disproportionate aspect ratios (blade to hilt) of the swords.

The grip for the Naval dagger in Image 2 appears to have some silver or gray halftones. And the Luftwaffe dagger does not appear to be a pure yellow, but instead seems to be more of an off white, with a hint of yellowish or gold shadings. The same sort of differences as might possibly be expected from a celluloid grip as compared to a cast phenolic resin grip. My point here being that the cast phenolic resins had problems with yellowing unlike the celluloid or the urea formaldehydes which could be easily manufactured �refrigerator white�.

It will be interesting to see if the pattern repeats itself in other catalogs.

PS: Many thanks for those very interesting images, and I also would like to see more of them.

Regards, FP

Image 2.

Fred:

I have always appreciated the depth of your postings. I believe you are a gentleman and a scholar

Vic

Fred:
I went back to the original color slide I shot with Dr. Haedeke back in 1984 to get the best color for you to see of the army grip. Will post more later.
Vic

Can you imagin the German Officer coming home after a couple of yrs. fighting on the front,he has to go to a big party.He go's to the dresser draw and unwraps his dagger which has been stored in a soft cloth to protect it.What color is the "white" grip ? Is it still white as it has not been exposed to the light or has it turned orange ???
BTW the party is on Oct.31 the dagger would fit right in

Vic, I don�t know that I am deserving, but I do appreciate the thought.

For this last image I�m not quite sure what is going on. There are what looks like fairly pronounced gold tones on the grip. But that is the puzzling part. It looks to be the same gold as on the Navy fittings to the right (with some of those fittings also having a slightly "tarnished" appearance using an orange(?). And the Navy grip itself (to me) seems to be more like �mother of pearl� than anything else. More �artistic license�(?). Fred

Ed, Locked away in drawer away from sunlight my guess is that not much would have happened at least as far as a radical color changes in a relatively short time frame. Both the period phenols and the dyes typically were coal tar derivatives. I�m not a chemist, but the cast phenol formaldehydes seem to have some kind of chemical instability and with time the exterior surfaces do degrade with some colors being more visibly affected than others. I think that the age of an item has bearing, and have seen reports regarding other types of objects that were refinished with the old surface layer being removed exposing a fresh surface. And within a year or so most were back to where they were before having the old surface removed. The plus factor in all this is that only the surface seems to be affected, and if left intact will tend to block or at least minimize further changes. Regards to all. FP

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Catalogs have their own issues. Look above:

- The navy grip is blue in several.
- The chrome bayo is blue
- The Navy crossguard proporttions are not right
- The luft knot is nothing like the original
- The shape of the grips is not true
- The top swaz on that 2nd Luft is not realistic and the lower one has no guilding


My only point is that advertising is to make the product look good and the renderings are not always 100% real. This was more so many years ago.

Dave

Dave makes some really excellent observations. I had (temporarily) forgotten that these were not �spec� sheets, but sales tools. And like so many other forms of advertising are not always faithful reproductions.

I also see Vic�s point. That with especially the image of the two Luftwaffe daggers together that the grip of the second model, as the artist created it, does have a yellowish or golden cast to a significant portion of the grip. However, to add to Dave�s list: In the same image the leather grip of the first model dagger is essentially black with some blue highlights. And the presumably natural aluminum finish has a strong blue/black tint, which is exactly the same as that on the steel Luftwaffe sword blade.

Hopefully some other members have some images from period catalogs that they would like to share to see if there are any differences in the way that they were colored.

And to Vic: Thanks Again for the images!! It�s always a pleasure to see period information as it was seen through the eyes of prospective purchasers of that era. Best Regards, FP

Collectors, while we are looking at this old SMF catalog here is a 1200 DPI scan of the product line sticker from the back cover for your file. The second catalog did not have one in place so this may very well be the only one in existance.

Scissors / Bayonet / Razors / Pen-knifes but what is the other thing?.
Just curious .

Another type of Razor....

I'm assuming you're thinking about the one with the three holes in it ??? Yes? Razorblade.


Ulf.

quote:

Dave makes some really excellent observations. I had (temporarily) forgotten that these were not �spec� sheets, but sales tools. And like so many other forms of advertising are not always faithful reproductions.

Then why is "weisser Trolongriff" considered prove that all grips started out white?

Houston is right about old author taken as the final word. The Die Klinge translate in Johnson's would have you believe "Elfenbein-Imitation griff" means white grip.

I don't mean to sound ignorant but why hasn't anyone just asked one of the surviving members of the TR? I know that there aren't many left but my dad served in ww2, He's 83 and he remembers everything about his time there.

This picture should resolve everything. Orange grip Luft with a picture of the Luft with orange grip on the original box...

Fitzer,would that box be the famous reverse grip Luft dagger that is worn on the rightside and not on the left

Reading "reds" post rang a bell... Got me thinking about the reason I started accumulating this stuff.. My Father brought back several items from the war, an Eickhorn army dagger with the original hangers and knott, a WKC single engraved dress bayonet, a cased Mother's cross,lots of silver trophies from France. He returned in 1945 and the Eickhorn Army dagger grip was ORANGE then and it still is. The color has never changed.. You will NEVER convince me that these grips were all originally produced in white then changed into these deep yellow and orange, almost red colors in just a few years.. This is, without question, conclusive proof these grips were NOT all produced in white. I can't believe I didn't see this sooner.......

I remain a skeptic. I don't nor will I ever believe in the "changing color" theory. I saw a quote once that makes sense to me as I've seen it applied in so many ways......

"Statistics can be used to establish any preconceived conclusions." Other translations would say, "Dazzle 'em with bull shXX" or "Dog and Pony Show" or "Overload 'em with numbers"........

Just my opinion, but I've stuck it with my entire life and have found no reason to think otherwise. Not trying to stir up anything, only the way I personally feel and will stay with the belief.

Everyone is free to believe whatever pleases them. Various engineering texts mention color problems/issues with phenolic resins. But as I am certain would be brought out in a discussion of same, they are not focused on Third Reich era German dagger grips, but addressing phenolic resins in general.

quote:

Then why is "weisser Trolongriff" considered proof that all grips started out white?

Houston is right about old author taken as the final word. The Die Klinge translated in Johnson's would have you believe "Elfenbein-Imitation griff" means white grip.

"weisser Trolongriff", as was originally cited from the WKC catalog, either means �white Trolon grip� or the phrase was mistranslated. I was not born speaking German, and am not that proficient in the language, and would be more than happy to defer to a better translation if I�ve committed an error. At face value to me it indicates a white grip. Not an orange* one. Or a yellow* one.

* In fields other than dagger collecting: period phenolic collectors use the terms �butterscotch� (yellow) or �pumpkin� (orange), and a "deep pumpkin" (reddish/orange) to describe what were formerly (as manufactured) �ivory� colored artifacts.

I�m also a little confused just where �Elfenbein-Imitation griff� (Griff aus Elfenbeinimitation) fits into the discussion. My translation of it is: 'imitation ivory grip'. And �ivory� usually refers to an off white color sometimes with a very slight hint of yellow mimicking the animal sources the natural material comes from. And I don't recall off-white being excluded as a legitimate period grip color.

Instead of trying to prove that the grips changed color. Perhaps the approach should have been to let those who believe that period cast phenolic resins did not or cannot change color should have been to let them try and prove their point of view from an engineering or scientific basis, instead of the other way around??

But like I said at the beginning, everyone is free to believe whatever pleases them. FP

Does anyone know what the grip on the Hermann Goering Luftwaffe General Degen is made of?

The photographs shown in Wittmans book on pages 363,364 and 369 show the degen with what looks to be an orange colored grip. The color seems to match very well with the specially made orange-brown leather frog, scabbard and boots to go with his pale powder blue uniform.

Also, on page 370, there is a period color photo of Goering wearing the degen, and the grip also looks orange. Wittman describes the grip in this period photo as "the deep yellow color of the grip can easily be discerned,..."

The orange/yellow grip looks like it was selected to match the rest of the ensemble. If it started out as white and changed color, I'm sure the Reichsmarschall would have had it replaced.

Earlier in the text, the book states changes in design to the 2nd Model Luftwaffe General's degen, included a grip configuration change "to reflect a solid trolon/celluloid type of yellow color...", so presumably the grip was trolon.

Perhaps not real proof of anything, but interesting. Maybe the grip was 'aged' to the correct color if it started out as white, or perhaps it was orange/yellow when it was made.

I also saw on a dealers site last year a couple of 2nd luft daggers with dark orange grip color on the obverse, and a definite change to a yellow color on the reverse, which to me indicates that certain conditions allow color change to take place - exactly what those conditions are/were, or to what extent the color change occurs is the question.

Either way, grip color is a fascinating topic!

Regards
Russell

Russell, When it came to fashion (and blades) G�ring seems to have done whatever he wanted to. From a manufacturing point of view if G�ring had wanted a powder blue grip to go with the uniform it would unquestionably have been powder blue. If he wanted the grip to match his boots the same holds true. And he undoubtedly could have had a selection to chose from if he felt so inclined.

I�m not quite sure where Tom Wittmann was going with his statement about the Luftwaffe General�s degen that you cited. But from a manufacturing perspective I think some general observations about color can be made. Some plastic resins are more colorfast than others. And some lend themselves to certain colors while some do not. If we look at just the Dynamit/Nobel company during the Third Reich it made: �Trolit� (cellulose acetate*), �Trolitan� (molded phenol formaldehyde), �Trolon� (cast phenol formaldehyde), and �Troplast� (urea formaldehyde). * (Dynamit/Nobel, a major manufacturer of phenolic resins, actually made the "Trolit" molding powder from resin supplied by I.G. Farbenindustrie.)

All plastic resins have their good and bad points, but colors (and translucence if desired) are an area where the urea�s do well. Molded phenolics do not (especially with light colors) which is why you see so many black and brown pistol grips. The cellulose based grips are reasonably colorfast, but the white ones can yellow very slightly over time with a minor difference between the cellulose nitrate and cellulose acetate formulations (the Germans went to cellulose acetate primarily because it was a lot safer to manufacture).

Cast phenolics were another matter. As I mentioned earlier the U.S. company that originally acquired the rights from Germany to manufacture the cast phenolic resins did some testing to see what would work and what would not. Of the roughly two hundred dyes and pigments tested they had a failure rate of roughly 90%. One of the tests was exposure to a carbon arc light as a way of accelerating exposure to ultraviolet light. Which was known to cause problems with the cast phenolic resins. And also explains the �why� of what you saw with the two 2nd model dagger grips. With cast phenolic resins the reds seem to be the least affected, the whites the most affected, with the rest scatted somewhere in the middle.

Having said all that: If I was forced to make a guess celluloid (a thermoplastic) is a little on the soft side and more easily scratched, so it would not have been a good choice (IMO) for something created specifically for G�ring. Which leaves the urea�s and cast phenolics. Either of which could have been colored to suit G�ring�s request. Although I�m leaning more to a urea because of all of the compatibility/failure rate issues with the dyed/pigmented cast phenolics. Best Regards, FP

Thanks FP, there is a part in TW's book where he describes the differences between the 1st and the 2nd Luftwaffe Generals degen design - it was this that I was referring to in terms of the grip change configuration "to reflect a solid trolon/celluloid type of yellow color".

With regard to Goering being able to have any grip color he wanted, I totally agree someone would have made it happen!

The period photo in TW's book shows an orange grip, which is one of the questions that I think has been asked in this thread - are there any period photos of colored grips other than white. This is the only one I've seen so far (there must be others). It shows that the technology was available to produce this color at least during the period. I also believe, as you do, that it would have been what Goering wanted, and not the result of a change over time.

On the other hand, I'm also convinced of the argument that some grips, depending on their properties and the conditions they have been exposed to, do change color. I base this on what I have seen on one dealers site as mentioned in my previous post. I found your analysis of DJB's broken luft grip very interesting, and there is a marked change in the color throughout the pieces.

Again, a fascinating subject with many variables to be considered. I appreciate your technical knowledge and your willingness to share it - I've learnt a great deal from this thread!

Regards
Russell

Another interesting quote from Wittmans Luftwaffe book, p132, under a colour picture of the March 1940 edition of Die Klinge, an edged weapons trade magazine, showing a colour drawing of an SMF dagger.

'Is it interesting to note, the grip depicted in the advertisement is white in colour. This writer has never seen an unaltered SMF dagger equipped with a white grip.'

Which suggests that all SMF Luftwaffe grips have changed colour. I presume these are all solid plastic, rather than plastic over plaster.

Frogprince,

I have greatly enjoyed your scientific and scholarly approach toward this interesting topic.

Have you or do you know of anyone that has "recently" sanded or refinished a Third Reich period orange trolon grip down to it's original white color, then observe as the grip changes in color?

First, I would like to thank those who have commented on the more technical aspects of the discussion. While I was reasonably familiar with some aspects, others required me to do a little research. Which was beneficial to me personally because it gave me a much better appreciation of what the original makers must have gone through to create the daggers. Something that I think that we as collectors in this modern age of technology might tend to forget.

I think I still have some pictures of (non-dagger) refinished phenolic resin castings. But unfortunately they are not my property and I can�t post them. What they show is a gradual darkening of the plastic until it approximates the color prior to refinishing. In lieu of that I�m reposting the image that was earlier shared with us that shows the different colors as seen with the broken grip. If you look at where the arrows are now located you can see what looks to me like a darker boundary layer between the inner core and the outside surface. With my understanding of the aging process being that the darker exposed outside surface acted something like a sun block protecting the unexposed interior.

Something additional: 1940 seems to have been a pivotal year for dagger grips. I found a reference where the phenols and ureas were restricted in 1940 for use in military production. No doubt accounting for the increase in the use of the other non-critical materials for late dagger grips. SMF produced a lot of government model issue daggers directly for the Luftwaffe. Which may have aided them in getting around the ban on strategic materials. As a sort of reverse image to Tom Wittmann�s observation that he never an SMF with a white grip: While not as popular in the United States, casein plastic (Galalith) was very widely used in Europe for things like buttons and other assorted sundries. And it was manufactured in a very wide range of colors. I�ve seen a lot of white casein plastic dagger grips. But never an orange or (true) yellow casein plastic grip. Regards to all. FP

This luft dagger is currently in the For Sale section. The owner, Sapient1 has kindly allowed me to post some of the pics here for the purpose of the discussion - thanks Jim.

There is a marked difference in color over this grip, with only small sections which have turned a dark orange. Colors from the pics seem to show pale yellow, through yellow, through to orange, with the lightest color on the reverse.

Regards
Russell

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Regards
Russell