UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum grip color

I have a couple questions about army and luft grip colors. What were the colors issued? Was the color meaningful to the rank or position? What causes color change in these grips and in what way? Thanks

I believe the first colors issued were white and yellow.However,I seem to recall discussion about the effects of sunlight, And the specific mixtures of the grips composition.I have heard the "Punkin"color variants are the most "Rare"..G.

Geoff is correct in that the grips were produced in both white and yellow. As for the other colors \ shades those happened via some chemical reaction over time. The grips (most not all) are made of trolon~celluloid that is either solid or over wood or plaster.

Not unlike wine I guess some get better i.e. more valuable over time due to the color they take on. I have seen some pictiures of very dark colored grips that look almost black hence the name funeral grip but I have never read anything that shows proof that it was a variation that could have been purchased during the war.

Since I am by far not an expert in this field you should wait until one or more of the more of the old hares chime in

Regards,

John

A whole story for sure!

Some grips are killer!

I have seen many members show some
dandys!

Many we can see change from knot removed
etc.!

Craig must have his article pegged some place!

It gets deep if I recall and all the opinions!

Some say white! Some say no!

I like color!


PVON

One thing I know for sure is I dropped a deep orange grip on the floor and it was light yellow in the core. Ouch!

Hey P, you teasing me with that dagger cause I got $300 right now.

One of the most enduring and longest topics ever on GDC was surely Craig's grip colour theory.
Craig reckons every trolon grip started out as white!!

Thanks for the input guys. I followed the grip color discussion but didn't know if anything definitive came out of it. Is there any period reference to grip colors in advertisements? If grips were all white when manufactured, when did they start changing color? Are grips darker color than they were fifty years ago or did they change quickly after they were produced?

As stated the grips were white when they left the factory. But the topic involves some background of what was happening in the German chemical/plastics industry at that time as a background for some of the variations seen. Trolon itself was the trade name for a cast phenol-formaldehyde plastic resin (Bakelite) made by the Dynamit AG (Dynamit-Nobel) company in Troisdorf Germany. Which during the time of the Third Reich was one of the companies which made cast phenolic resins. Early commercially made Bakelite was molded only in dark colors. The cast resins were part of a large scale effort to manufacture whites and lighter colors first in Germany, the U.S., and other nations. With the Germans as the premier synthetic dye makers of the era leading the way.

While it is a widely known phenomena in multiple collector groups now. No one knew back then that because of the synthetic dyes used to make the grips - with age, heat, and especially exposure to sunlight - that cast phenolic resins gradually would begin to decompose at the surface. It is byproducts from the decomposition which causes the various colors to change, white grips to turn to yellow, orange (etc.). And similar color changes to the many other multicolored objects made from the cast resins (as a rule the longer the exposure to what causes the color change the more an object will turn darken/turn color).

The Germans were aware of the problem. But were never able to fix it. And they concurrently developed a number of variant resins which did not have the problems of the cast phenolic resins. And as other more stable/cost effective plastics were developed and put into production the cast phenolic resins eventually became a thing of the past. But during the time of the Third Reich any slight color changes probably would not cause much in the way of ripples in the industry because for daggers the cast resins would have mimicked to some extent Ivory grips which also turn color when they age (yellow not orange). And they already had an investment in the equipment used to make the cast resins which was geared to smaller production quantities.

What really caused the grips to be discontinued was the fact that companies like Dynamit AG was an explosives and ammunition maker. And it and others increasingly had demands placed on them for war material. Which coupled with a shortage of raw materials forced dagger makers to turn to substitutes. FP

FP- Fascinating info.
Truly a well written explination to what was one of my own unanswered questions.
Knowledge like yours is what makes GDC such a valuble resource.
THANKS!

Thanks FP! That answers a lot of questions.

Which brings up more questions. What would cause this? It seems that this grip is darker in the grooves than on the high spots. Under a loop tool lines can still be seen in the grooves. The high spots are much smoother but not as dark. Why would or does the same material become different colors?

I should also add that this has not been messed with IMO and did not have wire on the grip.

If a grip was allowed to age without ever being handled then there would or should be a uniform (color) layer over the entire surface where it is exposed. The mere act of handling a dagger grip will remove a small portion of the topmost layer of any residue on the high points onto the user�s hands leaving the low areas intact. The more handling, the more that will likely be removed, although it will probably be microscopic and not readily noticeable. With a user�s hands in effect polishing the grip. (And it�s always possible that some previous owner, instead of just handling a dagger, was a little more aggressive and may have hand polished a grip for some reason hitting the high points in the process.)

As a matter of fact the restoration of some cast phenolic resin objects involves mechanically polishing the decomposed topmost layer off. Exposing the untouched interior which will begin the process all over again. Understanding that changes in color will happen again at the same rate as before the polishing/restoration. FP

Don't want to open a can of worms here but I am convinced that some grips were issued as yellow.
I will not comment on the trylon grip theory as I am not convinced one way or the other.
I have handled a few period painted grips that are yellow paint not white.

I don't think this dagger has been handled enough to wear the color off of the grip.

Hi Paul, That's the first I heard of dagger grips that were actually "period painted yellow"? JohnJ

I realise there are several different theories regarding grip colouration but thought I would add to the pot. I know this might sound a bit silly but from the period black & white photos that I have seen none have exhibited any suggestion of colour . HOLD ON HOLD ON, before you all start typing sarcy remarks.

Below are two pictures, both have been reverted to black and white, one is a plaster filled white and the other an orange grip Eick. Its plain to see which is which, and even a yellow grip dagger shows hue when the colour is discarded. Granted I dont have a huge selection of period photos of daggers in wear but every example I do have looks pure white to me !.

Oh no,here we go again.The "can of worms" is open!!!
Seiler (Yank in UK)

Indeed John there are period examples of painted grips out there. Here are a couple from my personal stash:

Paul- I LOVE those examples, I always thought that pieces like this would finally put to rest the 1st model railway debete... but that is for another thread.
My point is, I DO believe that your paint is period, but still doubt that it started out as yellow.
I just moved into a home that was built in the civil war, one of the rooms had paint from the 1940's. I thought it was dark beige, the owner told me that it was white... originally.
Trylon is not the only thing that changes to yellow over time.
In the last pic. that you posted you can see 2 layers of paint (on the left just beside the furrel). The base coat is much more white than the top coat. I suspect originally they were the same color. With paint it is the exposure to light and air that causes the color change. This would explain why the upper coat has turned more yellow then the base.
I work in the paint industry, we keep our color standards in little zip-lock bags (no air) in a special cabinet (no light) or else in 60 years our "pure white" standards would be as yellow as your grip.

I think Degens did a nice piece of work with the images, which illustrates the hurdles that have yet to be surmounted for believing that anything but white colored grips were used on these daggers. To the best of my knowledge there are simply no period photographs showing anything different.

And as far as the painted grips go I think that Johnny V. is right on target with his observations regarding the aging of paint. Yellowing was very common especially with the older paint formulations which included those with the natural as well as the synthetic carrier/binders.

And sometimes with period edged weapons all you can offer to explain some observed characteristic is a best guess. In the case of the light and dark colored phenolic grip, if the dagger shows no signs of being handled. Then my best guess is that somebody at some time or other polished the grip by itself hitting the high spots to create the light and dark effect. FP

It also occurs to me that if the black grip was made from something like molded phenolic resin that: a) It probably did not help the adhesion of the paint when the resin out gassed. b) Close in to the grip the immediate atmosphere around it (from out gassing) could have contributed to the aging/yellowing processes that were going on. FP

PS: Very nice examples of painted grips.

There is a series on the History Channel called WWII In Color. In the episode Why We Fight there is color footage of a G.I. showing his buddies the daggers he has. If I remember right in his waist band is a yellow handled luft or army. That is the only period color images I can remember seeing.

This is the image from the "Why we fight" episode that Nietzsche is referring to. Looks like a white handled luft, and also an SS or SA dagger as well.

Regards
Russell

Very interesting thread. I always thought the paint was yellow but now Johnny you have me questioning it.
Vern had, and maybe still does, a similar deep yellow painted Klaas grip if I recall correctly...

Exelent work Ruski. Thank you for that image. Maybe it was my tv or my eyes that made me think it was yellow. Not getting any younger you know. That is one of the best parts of that series.

This answers the questions that I had and more. Thank you everyone. These are the types of discussions that are the reason I am a member of GDC. Thanks again.

I think the image of the painted grips posted by Paul re-enforce the all white theory in that if you look at the bottom picture and see the lower layer of paint it appears white on my screen or at the very least a lighter share then the top layer or coat of paint.

To me this would indicate that it was painted white and has yellowed over time.

John

John, Using Paul�s image I�ve enlarged it, and think that I am focusing on the area that you are making reference to. I think that you are correct, and looking at it from this perspective it looks like it might be a secondary protective clear coat that is doing most of the yellowing. Which I also believe would be very typical of a number of the period coatings that were in use.

A very astute observation that I think many of us may have missed when we first looked at the pictures. (I know that I did ). Regards, FP

Now THAT is interesting. It does appear there is white paint underneath the yellow color.

I guess the way I see it, if we're proved that grips change color with age and conditions, fine. Maybe all grips did start as white. But what is to say the companies didn't age their grips and sell them with the colors they changed to?

This is not ammunition for a long drawn out heated debate on the theory that all grips started out white. When Greg first brought this theory to the collector public me and a couple of long time local collector friends talked about this and agree.
I myself don't believe this all white grip theory and neither do they. Here are some other points to ponder. Metal to non metal chemical reaction happens enough to prove wrong and must be accepted. The effects of sunlight on some objects is also a valid statement. Time,age and means of storage add to the mix.
All of these induced effects lead me to believe that the most rare sought after and desireable grips would be the white grips.
Because somehow they resisted all of these conditions that all of the others failed to handle and relented to the color change.
In John Angolias book "Swords Of Germany 1900/1945" on page 194 he writes about the 2nd model Luftwaffe Generals Sword.
In the second sentence he states, and I quote word for word;
"The plastic grip varied in color from yellow to orange (not white),and was with a twist wire running diagonally."
This being the case does it not make sense that Dagger makers would offer various grip colors to Officers who had the clout to private purchase these instead of the standard issue white grips.
I have included a photo of pieces of a second model Luftwaffe Dagger grip. The outer burnt orange color is probably from the effects listed above.As well with the inner wall of the tang hole except for sunlight exposure. But beyond that it is yellow all the way to the tang hole.
Just my two cents and personal opinion.

Good points - To add to the mix I happen to have a wood core on one of mine and the color is the same from outside to inside. How about anyone else? Also how about the plaster ones?

Regards,

John

The shell over wood or plaster is white celluloid which maintained a white color over the years with very little change, as a rule.

Here is a set of trolon grips for a Teno Leader. I believe that the color on these 4 grips started out as white. The change in the color was apparently the result of environmental exposure - maybe to sulfur (dioxide or mercaptans) or heavy duty armpit emissions or whatever. Something definitely changed the color.

quote:

or heavy duty armpit emissions or whatever

LOL at this one

Manfred, depends on the deodorant,anti-perspirant or BO juice collectors use.
Beautiful Daggers you have there. You always have the best.
But just think about the excitement of finding a rare white grip version on a hunt.

Now watch buddy, maybe someone if not you will show a picture of one.
Did you get my last email?

Donnie: I think I got your email, it was kinda short. And thanks for the complement.
The dagger on the left is mine, the other one belongs to a friend. He just bought this dagger on ebay for $250. It had been advertised as a reproduction army dagger and was pretty dirty, so I cleaned it up a bit. I thought he could have done better if it came with a free set of hangers. But nowadays deals just ain't what they used to be. In this business one always gets boinkered.

Gentlemen,
I hope that you will forgive me but I just had to get my two bits worth in. My intent is not to rock the boat, so to speak, but the dagger manufacturers offered these handles in a variety of colors and materials from the very beginning. What brought about my butting in are the above Teno grips. Were they to have ever been all white the portion of the top end and the bottom end of the grips would still be white and not a match for the larger "exposed" areas. They are overall the original grip color. My opinion is that we see a lot of white grips in period photos because they look like the more expensive ivory. Original period catalogs offer the different grip colors. Please understand I do not mean to offend anyone.
Regards,
Dick Pumphrey

IMO all the grip color theories do forget one simple but main aspect: The history of grip material.
Dagger grip materials always have been white bone, ivory (also white), amber, horn (black), stag horn (not relevant in this discussion about army/navy/luft dagger grips) and wood (concerning color also not relevant her).
Therefore it was the intention to replace these "normal" but expensive (for mass production) grip materials by modern, much more cheap materials that did resemble the former ones at least in color.
Therefore we do find white, yellow and black (no navies) gripped army/navy/luft daggers.
I for myselfe am totaly sure that the chemists of the 3.R period did knew very well about color changes to deeper yellow on those certain grips and it has been a desired efect. Yellow WAS a DESIRED grip color (think of the "glas" grips which for sure COULD NOT start their life as white grips).
It is also absolutely obvious that the 3.R chemists also could manufacture full white grips which remained white (have you ever seen a yellow grip forrest dagger or a yellow gripped TN hewer?).

It has been recently explained to me that the �glass� grips were not made from sand/silica but from a plastic resin. That was something that I did not know because I had assumed that �glass� meant �glass�. And that it was just something that I had not seen before as a physical material that dagger grips were made from. Instead (if I understand it correctly) it�s a term used by collectors to describe a dagger grip�s translucent appearance.

Natural ivory tends to yellow with age. And as I said earlier if a cast phenolic resin grip turned color and darkened I don�t think that that it would have caused any significant ripples in the dagger industry. And it may even be that some grips were made in an off white color (?).

Where I might have some disagreement is in the catalog descriptions of the grips. Ivory and celluloid grips are listed in various places. But the primary material for Army and Luftwaffe daggers seems to be white plastic (not yellow or orange). Does anyone have a catalog that says different?

PS: I seriously doubt that color changes were a �desired� end result for the cast phenolic resins. By the 1950�s the primary U.S. producer of cast phenolic resins had removed them from its product line - while the molded phenolic resins continued in production. And in Third Reich Germany the Austrian developed urea formaldehyde resins (which were not subject to color changes) were being produced by I.G. Farbenindustrie and others. And Dynamit AG (the maker of Trolon) made a hybrid melamine molding compound. But its hard to say how much impact the urea/melamine resins had on dagger grip manufacture before dagger production was terminated. FP