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TUNIC 04b

TUNIC 04c

quote:

Originally posted by CurtD:
Have you tried to return these to Bill?

One big problem with the Reich's level tabs is that I have not been able to find a red tag on any other NSDAP item. I have seen genuine tabs of the same style and they had blue tags.

Hello CurtD
Return those items after 8 years?
At that time there was no internet I just could not "cross reference" and I trusted him 100%,and it was not but at the mid 90s this last generation of fakes started surfacing.I just could notice they were fakes about two years ago,and almost by pure accident! I posted those tabs before in the hope that I was wrong and members said they were OK and you can see by my comments in some posts that I did not agree with them.
Take a good look to the resulting condition of those tabs in real uniforms I have,from number 1 to 3 and now look to the other tabs specially the one on the last uniform.That tab is on an uniform that was "used" but in "good" condition but the tabs DOESN`T show use or age at all!!
And the "bumps" are THERE !
How can that be??
Regards,
Aylson Doyle

Herr Flick & others: to get the story straight, there is no "mix-up" whether the tabs were found in Poland or found in Austria- the tabs were FOUND in Poland as I had mentioned some time ago, -- they were then taken out of Poland, into Austria, & were NOT FOUND in Austria.

quote:

Rick H

The Gau Haupt Befehlsleiter rank does exist in post 1942 period references. (The 43 Org book was compiled in 42 and published in 43.)
This thread contains pictures of one period post 1942 publication showing that rank. A very few examples of this rank tab are known to exist and have survived the war. It is doubtful the rank was ever awarded to anyone.

Exspand,

Thank you for the clarification. My own period references are woefully short of post 1942 material. I noticed that while Col. Angolia's book (Cloth Insignia of the NSDAP and SA) shows a photo of the Gau Haupt Befehlsleiter tab on p.54, it notes on the same page that the grade was only relevant to the Reich level.

Many seem to keep calling the printed color of these controversial tabs as "red". No, the color is not red. Red is the color you see printed on the HJ RZM tags. Clarification of the color: not red; it's a pinkish-carmine, (& it's not supposed to be the blue-printed either), it's the pinkish-carmine hue as on the tags when the tabs were found. Why was this color used?? I have no idea; maybe it has something to do with the rank?!? Only the maker knows why.

Many readers are of the assumption that the tabs in question made their debut in the early 1990's because of a couple of postings made belching the words of wisdom "suddenly appearing out of nowhere in the early 90's". Perhaps that is the first time they encountered the horde of tabs, at the Max. They were available way, way before that, so the 'early-90's" theme can be tossed into the GI can. I searched thru my old files to find them listed available in quantity & pictured on a Euro dealer's list dated February 1975.

Let me start with saying that this isn't a witch hunt - I'm just trying to figure out this insignia as we all are, and everybody have the right to have their own oppinion. Anyway I think we are now going somewhere...though we are far from the goal.

@Aylson Doyle: Thank You very much for posting Your tabs and tunics - much appreciated...and to that I can add that a certin body part of mine below the back is turning green from envyisme - absolutely stunning! I love the setup on tunic 1...magnificent!

Comparing the tabs I am comfortable with saying that the eagle of the Reichsleitung Abschnittsleiter and the Kreisleitung Hauptabschnittsleiter tabs are the same eagles as on my tunic.

Looking closer I can only agree with Kent Berg on the way these were manufactored. If You look closer at the Reichsleitung Abschnittsleiter tabs the eagle doesn't have matching "bumps" - but a bump over the right wing. Having this in mind I belive we will see those particular eagles with variations of bumps...some with three like on my tunic - some with two and probably also some without any bumps at all and so on.

We now also can see that it's not only one manufactoror that used this type of eagle on their tabs, and so far we have manufactoror 24, 26 and 28. Unfortunately I don't have any reference that cover these, but I will find it interesting if someone could find out who these manufactorors were as to their geographical location.

@Schloss 1: Thank You for clarifying where they were found. I admit that I had the understanding of two batches in different quality were found within same decade, wich was kinda bugging me.
If possible please make a scan or take a snapshot of the February 1975 dealers list and post, as to me that is hard evidence of those tabs being manufactored atleast pre 1991 or actually 1975 - wich is a step down the road.

After reading Rick H.'s posts and having the illustration of the Ortsleitung insignia Expand posted on page 1 of this thread, I find it legit to assume that Oberabschnittsleiter indeed excisted within Ortsleitung - as the highest rank.

Of note I must say that I totally agree with Expand/Jeff regarding the complexity within the Reichzeugmeisterei. However assuming that these are late war produced I think it's legit to belive that they wasn't that hysterical at the Reichszeugmeisterei of accepting only the perfect insignia - but it were a matter of being able to produce any insignia at all as to the allied bombing raids.

As a futher note I must say that my knowledge is limited as I am not an elder collector - only have 2 years on my back, hence I normaly stay off the scene listening and learning. My main collecting area is awards (though my collecting interests are spread very wide) and I see differences all the time on these - especially when it comes to different manufactorors...for instance the manufactoror of PAB's can be identified within the difference of the grass/stone area. Having the many manufactorors in mind I also think it's very legit to assume that there are differences on the final product depending who made it - also when it comes to insignia.


Cheers,
Carsten

This is what we are after, now some more information is filtering through. Hopefully, we will be able to get a better picture after some more posts. New light has been shed on a MUCH earlier date of finding, in the 70's, as was mentioned by another, that some dealers bought them from vets or at motel buys, and had encountered them.

What I want to make clear to those now getting into this, and thoses just reading these posts, is that a few comments DO NOT make an item a reproduction! Although we still do not know 100% good or bad, more info is coming out to show that they have been around much longer, if this is indeed true, then we all might want to take a second look at them, and not just come out and say there bad, and the statement made that NO bigger collector or advanced collector would have these in there collection is, maybe they dont, thats there choice, but if the evidence supports originality, now what?

Yes, a few will still make their claims their bad, most likely regardless of what is posted or proven here. Heres the bottom line, if you dont like them, dont own them, simple! but, if they are real to the period, and we can get some more info on that, maybe others who are in doubt, or, believe there real, will have this knowledge to back them up. If it goes the other way, great, we might save others from buying them later on.

Heres what I see. First, I have spent a lot of time studying these eagles and oaks leafs etc. I didnt want to be the one who just looked at them on a tab and passed. I found that many did'nt look at them closely, they just saw the hump, and moved on, the eagles are made of aluminum and NOT metal, the other tabs that are accepted are stamped metal, with metal prongs, soldered on back, even the reserve of the metal is not quality on many I have seen, the fronts are great, but the backs look not a clean as these. Now, these eagles are not metal, but aluminum, and seem pressed, as the quality is very good, as expected, and the backs, Has ANYBODY looked at the backs, are solid, and from what I remember, the RZM stamped is raised. The eagle has three indentions for the prongs, as mentioned before, the pins are also aluminum, then the pins are put into the indents, and more aluminum is added by way of a press to hold the pins on. Also, the pins are not crude soft aluminum, but very strong. Look at the oak leafs, same way made, but the indents are farther from the edges, so you dont get the bumps. Still, top quality made, top quality dies, etc. AND different marks on back, Next, I have seen just about every rank, in every piping with these eagles, the lowest I have encountered is the eagle and a single pip, blue piped, all the way up to the eagle and the three oak leaf spread with two bars, the bars are made the same way. Blue, white, yellow and yes red piped tabs have surfaced. You will not get the ageing with these as you will with the metal ones, as the are either gilted aluminum, or maybe anodized aluminum.

Now, we have a rough idea of how they were made, and the way they might have been made, we also have a rough idea as to when they started to appear on the market, now a bit earlier that stated, although a posting of the flyer or paper will be very nice to see. We have seen postings from top collectors and dealers who made vet buys of these eagles on tabs.

Granted, all this is not 100% proof there original, but at least it leaves open the question. When a comment is made there bad, and correct me if I am wrong, the only downside is that they have the bumps under the wings, and are missing the pebbling that Jeff mentioned, did I miss anything else? If you add both sides up, you'll see the difference, and folks, thats how these items are judged these days, why? because, most likely neither you nor I were there and saw them being made, either in the 1940's, or later (or maybe you were). So, we can ONLY go on what the collector has to offer by way of evidence and the facts as they are presently known. If this were a court of law, the attornies would tear up both sides, no doubt, but what there after is whatever evidence can be presented, the more, the better, simple!

This post will contuine, and more information will come out, if you are happy in the knowledge there fakes, fine, thats your opinion, and thats all it is, an opinion, based on what you know, not what others may or may not know. If you have a belief there original, also fine, but, facts remain we most likely wont know 100% for sure ever, but we can get close! Keep posting if you have any information on these tabs, and please, stay on topic, if you want to post tunics, or others, start a new thread. Leave this one for the tabs only.

quote:

Originally posted by Schloss 1:
Many seem to keep calling the printed color of these controversial tabs as "red". No, the color is not red. Red is the color you see printed on the HJ RZM tags. Clarification of the color: not red; it's a pinkish-carmine, (& it's not supposed to be the blue-printed either), it's the pinkish-carmine hue as on the tags when the tabs were found. Why was this color used?? I have no idea; maybe it has something to do with the rank?!? Only the maker knows why.

It is not supposed to be blue? Then are these "bumpless" tabs on Bill Shea's site fake?

Fake blue tag????? Has anyone seen a red, carmine, pink, or any other non-bluish tag on any NSDAP item?

quote:

Originally posted by AYLSON DOYLE:

Hello CurtD
Return those items after 8 years?

Sure. Lifetime guarantee is > 8 years.

Hundreds of those little gold pips (stars)(with the small eagle/swastika) were found with the NSDAP tabs, unissued in wrappers, I still have a small bagful left; they are marked RZM M1/42.

Hi the tag posted above and now belonging to Bill Shea was sold to him by me. I trust the knowledge of Jeff aka exspand. There is one question that I would like someone to answer. Are the multitude of tabs that these eagles and clusters appear on accepted as genuine? Is the piping correct and is the construction proper? I have heard the opinions on the insignia but would like an opinion or two about the tabs. I have seen SS tabs disected to death and not just the metal attachments. Thanks and cheers, Ryan

quote:

Reply

Hi without offending anyone I know that I too have a "vested interest" here. There is another previosly expressed comment with some validity. If these tabs are fake where are the multitudes and where are they now being sold and to whom? I know that this does not mean that they are either good or bad but it is food for thought gentlemen. I was at the past two SOS and the past 11 Max shows. I scoured many tables and did not see "hordes" of these tabs offered by anyone.It was tough finding a matching pair of political tabs in any rank or level.One would think that to justify making them one would have to produce more than 100 pair or so. I have been checking Ebay religiously for the past 5 years on an almost daily basis. I recall 2 pair being offered for sale in that time and one of those sellers was a member here and not from the former Eastern block.I see 100's of fake SS and Luft, Heer tabs at every show.Bill Shea has sold them and may continue to do so. I would like to hear his opinion.cheers, Ryan

Ryan, one reason you do not see those tabs bounding all over the place for sale is because the original batch from the influx has been sold out long ago, & they are scattered to the 4 winds, residing in collections; once in a while a set will pop up for sale.

Hello CurtD,
In answer to your question: the tab you posted on Bill's Site is original, not fake, & the blue-print RZM tag is original & yes it is supposed to be blue on that particular tab; in accordance to the regulations in effect at the point in time of their production, & according to the locale where produced (I assume in Germany itself). And the tabs some folks are in wonderment about with the "bumpies" & the pinkish-crimson RZM tag are original too; they came out of Poland & since produced in the Generalgouvernement Locale, perhaps an explanation of this pinkish hue (hellrot/karmesinrot) print for these high-ranking tabs, might be that different Ost regulations for the RZM print-color for tags were in effect in that Eastern Locale at that time. ? I am offering only a possible explanation. There has to be a reason for the use of this particular color. Does anyone out there have RZM production regulations for things produced in the elusory & curious Generalgouvernment??

I just read my last thread and please let me re-phrase in case Bill Shea should read. I meant that Bill Shea sells and has sold the political tabs in question as evidenced by supplied photos. I did not mean that he sells 100's of fake SS, army and Luft tabs. cheers, Ryan

quote:

Originally posted by [email protected]:
Hi the tag posted above and now belonging to Bill Shea was sold to him by me. I trust the knowledge of Jeff aka exspand. There is one question that I would like someone to answer. Are the multitude of tabs that these eagles and clusters appear on accepted as genuine? Is the piping correct and is the construction proper? I have heard the opinions on the insignia but would like an opinion or two about the tabs. I have seen SS tabs disected to death and not just the metal attachments. Thanks and cheers, Ryan

I wish you had offered it on the forum (if you did I missed it)! I would have bought it without the dealer added cost. If you ever get it back from Bill, let me know.

It is hard to find affordable politcal tabs that exspand doesn't already own!

quote:

Originally posted by Schloss 1:
Hello CurtD,
In answer to your question: the tab you posted on Bill's Site is original, not fake, & the blue-print RZM tag is original & yes it is supposed to be blue on that particular tab; in accordance to the regulations in effect at the point in time of their production, & according to the locale where produced (I assume in Germany itself). And the tabs some folks are in wonderment about with the "bumpies" & the pinkish-crimson RZM tag are original too; they came out of Poland & since produced in the Generalgouvernement Locale, perhaps an explanation of this pinkish hue (hellrot/karmesinrot) print for these high-ranking tabs, might be that different Ost regulations for the RZM print-color for tags were in effect in that Eastern Locale at that time. ? I am offering only a possible explanation. There has to be a reason for the use of this particular color. Does anyone out there have RZM production regulations for things produced in the elusory & curious Generalgouvernment??

I have asked several dealers and in several forums -- no one can find any NSDAP item other than these bumpy tabs that have a non-blue tag. Unless someone can come up with some period documentation to explain it, that is enough to put me off right there.

Hello All again,

*Schloss 1 - I did not understand what do you mean when you say they were "found" in Poland.
Are you saying that,perhaps,they were MADE in poland?
What�s the full story about this find?
By reading again Angolia�s "Cloth Insignia Of The NSDAP And SA" I found nothing that would support the allegation that 4th pattern NSDAP collar patches may have been made outside the Reich.However I may be wrong because I do not have many references regarding to RZM factory productions outside the Reich.
Also it doesn�t make any sense the sometimes changing of the color paper tag,nothing shows about what you said in reference books,if I am wrong please kindly tell me where I can find this information.If this is just your theory I must disagree.

* Kent Berg - Interesting theory but I have seen several hundreds 4th and final pattern NSDAP collar tabs and I found the blue tab in ALL LEVELS of ALL RANKS.Since the NSDAP Reichsleitungs Abschnittsleiter collar tab I bought from Bill Shea appears with an INCORRECTED RED TAG and an eagle that cause strong arguments in EVERY forum I have seem, it�s a logical conclusion that,at least,there�s something wrong!It is therefore logical to assume it�s a fake.As a long time collector of Third Reich items I do not believe that such a "flow" could remain undetected by RZM quality controll.I also cannot belive that an incorrected RED tag could be placed by MISTAKE for the same reasons.The FACT that hundreds collar tabs from this rank and of all levels suddenly appears is very suspicious.Besides they are BRAND NEW insignias and that�s impossible after 65 years and ,again,after seeing several hundreds!
"Bei allem gebotenen respekt" my opinion stands and this is a FAKE !
Regards to all,
Aylson Doyle

Hello again Herr Flick,
I am always glad to help!
I thank you very much for your comments on my uniforms,that NSDAP KREISLEITUNG DIENSTLEITER tunic is really impressive.It�s the highest rank found in the Kreisleitung level and it is named to a Gold Party Badge recipient.All decorations you see except the eagle order belonged to the individual.However by researching his history I found out that the decoration missing there was,in fact,that Eagle Order.I am sure that someone will find out who that Gentlemen was.
Best Regards,
Aylson Doyle

quote:

The FACT that hundreds collar tabs from this rank and of all levels suddenly appears is very suspicious.Besides they are BRAND NEW insignias and that�s impossible after 65 years and ,again,after seeing several hundreds!

Heres what we know on this statement, first, several have made statements that the tabs have been around LONG before the 90's, including a prominent dealer. That alone can put the 90's theory up in the air, next, I dont remember ever seeing an RZM tag on any I have seen over the years, maybe I dont remember, but, loose ones, I dont recall ever seeing a tag on the backs. Next, you mentioned that after 65 years its impossible to look new, that alone we know can and does happen from time to time, impossible is a strong statement. Alum, stored as these seem to have been, based on other postings, will look new, for a long time, if not exposed to the elements, I have mint unissued SA and NSDAP cap eagles, that look brand new, how can you explain that? we all know these items can look new, when stored properly, so......

Your theory on the red and blues tags is interesting, and may shed light on this a bit more. As for the books, sometimes they dont go into the depth that many would like, mainly because of the pages they plan to use in the book, if depth on every detail was made, it could be volumes and volumes. So, sometimes, they leave out info.

Your opinion has been noted, and I can see why you claim them fake, but, theres still little we know about these tabs, and its too soon to make a yes or no yet, I still expect more posts here, with hopefully new information, if its all bad, and its conclusive, based on whats presented, then we will know, if not, we may wind up back where we started in the first place, with half the camp saying there bad, and half the camp saying there good. Hopefully, later on, I can put together all thats been posted, good and bad, and see what we come up with, but so far, we have yet to see solid evidence either way. But, I feel we are getting closer to the truth.

Last, heres a strange fact, based on whats known so far, the majority were found on the market in the 90's, the MAJORITY, but, we know that some were seen well before that, as vet buys, etc. Now, nothing, nothing since the 90's, yes, they appear here and there for sale, but not in the mass they were, why? If in fact, there reproductions, and if so, damm good ones, why not keep making them? why make a bunch, and stop. Back then, the majority said they were 100% real and original, when they were found in mass, now, that there mostly gone, poping up now and then as a pair or so, there fakes. Why has nobody ever heard of who made them? sometimes, as time goes on, it spills out, and the maker becomes know, sometimes not. Last, why not make them better? why make only a large group, then stop. I only ask these questions, as we need to explore all possibilities. The story about Poland makes some sense, based on how they came onto the market, in quanity, then that was all, just a large group of them in a bunch. And why make excellent tabs, that most say at the time are correct, and waste them with the wrong color RZM tag, thats a big boo boo.

Aylson, your RZM tag info is of definite interest here, if you can get more info, please do.

I have found over 100 original collar tabs from veterans in motel buys. Some with blue RZM Tags and some with red. Some with humps and some not. Some with prongs of the eagles and pips and leaves directly through the tag and some with the tags over the top.
All in all, I am NOT convinced that any were bad in my case. The source and price were too good and verifiable.
Now, in my opinion, the variation comes by manufacturer and the only way to tell who did what is by removal of the insignia and the RZM numbers on the backs of the eagles, and this would only be a indicator, as they might have swapped parts among themselves just as dagger manufacturers did.
So, in the long run, I feel you must be satisfied with the item and its construction. Believe what YOU think is correct and be happy.
We are trying to make scientific decisions on what was just pure business to the people who lived on the product.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I'm bringing this back up, as its generated a lot of interest, both on the forum and off. I would like to hear from anybody else who might be able to add anything else. I have information from several who have emailed me with some documents showing that these same tabs were offered by a dealer in a catalog back in 1975, and are shown on a page from his catalog, the photos I got are rough, so I am waiting for better ones. If indeed this turns out true, and so far it has, plus Rons information, plus someothers who have bought them back in the 70's and 80's (they will not post here as they dont enjoy the forums anymore), have now shown that the theory that they only came out in the 90's can be laid to rest. PLUS, the tag comment was covered a bit by Ron as well, as have a few others with emails sent to me. Trust who you like on this, and if those in doubt still feel that there fake, thats fine, but with the information we now have, its hard to say there fake.

So, anymore information would always help, but it seems that we are leaning more towards them being originals, then the few comments made that they are fakes and postwar. It shows that there is more information then thought, and this information adds to them being originals to WWII.

Greetings


Since a month has passed since last post on this thread, I thought it would be interesting to hear if any new information have popped up on this type of PL insignia?

I might sound a bit impatient, but I really would like to see the mentioned photo of the 1975 dated dealers catalogue where this type of insignia is suppose to be in...and I strongly belive that I'm not alone about this


Cheers,
Carsten

Hello Carsten,
As summertime & hot weather are here in my neck'o'the woods, which is a lake resort area, superb nite clubs, fabulous Beach Dance Bar, etc., I find I am very, very hard-pressed to have much concern at all with any Forums, & at this time, with so many interesting/varied things to do, I have very, very little interest in participating in any Forums; however, with a rainstorm approaching, tonite I've taken note of your melancholy about not seeing the pictures of the 1975 dealer's picture catalog where this exact insignia (& many others) are in. You may strongly believe that tomorrow I am going to make clear fotocopies of the page(s), snail-mail them to Kent Berg, & he will be free to post them. I'd post them myself but have very little inclination to do so, & besides that, my camera is not the greatest. About the only thing as concerns collecting of militaria, that will pull me away from hot summer activities, is if I see a house/farm estate auction advertised in the local Area Shopper that says they'll have WW2 German/Japanese memorabilia for sale, I'll go of course, & make my buys(s), then it's back to Mr. Fun. Be patient & in a short time, hopefully, you'll be able to see the requested pictures. Hang in there...

UPDATE: Bill Shea now has some of these tabs for sale:

http://www.therupturedduck.com/WebPages/Cloth/c859.htm

I mailed the fotocopies of my entire 1975 catalog to Kent Berg on 8.8.05. The various NSDAP tabs are items 1 thru 5, & the tabs in question are item #3. Possibly when he has time he'll post pictures.

I finally found another example of a red NSDAP tag:

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/859099...873053844#9873053844

It is on (what most consider to be) a fake armband. Also has an "B" tax code and and "R" sequence #.

CurtD,- just my personal opinion but I think someone has pirated a "red" tag off a set of the tabs-in-question, & has re-glued it to that definitely phony armband in hopes of improving its sale. Note, besides the "B" tax code ltr. & the "R" sequence ltr., the serial nr. is 401204 on the tag on the fake armband,- & that the serial nr. on the tabs posted by Alyson Doyle on 25.5.05 is 400836. I have one of those "red" tags that fell off a set of the "questionable" tabs, & it also has the "B" & the "R", with a serial nr. 400804. Note the numerical closeness of the numbers on all 3 tags. That's why I think someone has peeled off that tag from one of these NSDAP tabs & glued it onto that fake armband to enhance its marketability.

Schloss, the only problem with your theory is that the red tags on all the collar tabs I have seen have holes punched through by the pips.

Wow, what a dicussion. BTT to save...