UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum Political colar tabs - god/bad?

Please take the time to read throughly the links provided below, I will also quote from them, theres seems to be a lot of back and forth here, maybe bringing this out will help to clear up these comments.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/859099914/m/5843023607/r/7573007607#7573007607

"Any time something is found in quantity, there is automatic suspicion. When a large group of these turned up, years ago, many collectors panicked and automatically thought they were fake. These are original and nothing to be concerned about. There are a number of makers of the metal insignia and each has slightly different charachteristics."

Bob Hritz

"When these tabs were discovered in quantity in storage in the East, this was not the only rank found, but many other Political ranks were found in the big box,including dark brown ones, & even the lowly ones for the lower Orts ranks. As for lending some more credence to the event of their discovery, for any ever-present unbelievers, I have seen the original paperwork from the Polish Government to bring the stuff out of there & to enable the buyer to get the stuff thru their Customs hassle-free. Also in the purchase were many original SA stickpins,(RZM-marked) each pinned to a very long strip of WW2 Polish newspaper, alongside each other, to make a roll, & each roll of these had 100's of stickpins." Schloss1

Two quotes from this thread link above, and yes, there are others in the link as well, making other comments about them being bad too. Keep in mind, there comment smay now have changed, as its been sometime, and thats fine as well, but if so, why?

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/859099914/m/1003092457/r/9413093067#9413093067

"Bob, I hate to disagree with you, but I have noticed this dimple on MANY originals that I have vet purchased over the years. I feel that this was just one manufacturer's variation and it was rather common.
Also, MANY of the tabs that I have found are in this like new condition. I believe that literally thousands of these tabs were never issued and our troops found them by the hundreds and sent them home.
MOST of the tabs that I find from veterans and unissued and, if stored properly over the years, retain that "like new" look. For some reason, vets kids just didn't play with these like they did dad's daggers. Great for the collector."
Ron Weinand
Weinand Miltiaria

"Here is another, even older, thread on these same tabs. The consensus is that they are original, late-war, unissued SA collar tabs. They have been thoroughly examined by experts in the field. This is of more value than subjective comments about their appearance such as "they look too new, they aren't shiny enough, they have bumps under the wings, there are too many of them out now, etc." These may all be good warning flags, but they are not hard evidence.

Note especially Tony Lawson's post in the thread from July 25, 2001.

NSDAP Collar tabs

I own a pair of these tabs and plan on keeping them. When I first received them, I was concerned since they did not look as good as other tabs of this type. I am now satisfied that they are legit tabs of late-war quality. Considering that I paid FAR less than the several hundred $'s typical price for Abschnittsleiter tabs, I am happy with them.

I don't really need another pair for my collection, but if anyone who owns a set is convinced that they a repros, I would be glad to take them off their hands at high-end repro prices." Chuck Ferguson

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=042090573&f=859099914&m=9443059832&p=1

"This style of reproduction tab has been around for at least 8 years. You normally find them in this identical configuration rank/level. If you study the eagle, note the round bulge on top and bottom of both wings about dead center. This along with the previously mentioned points are the most glaring points. It was originally thought that someone had found a large group of unissued tabs and simply had new insignia added. I do not subscribe to that theory." Jason Burmeister

"Having read the varied opinions on this subject I would like to enter in some information in regards to materials.
It seems there is a general idea that the devices should be "Cruddy" "Oxidized" and "Putty colored"
and this idea may apply to some devices , but not all.

These are the 4th pattern tabs as introduced in 1939. The earlier devices, upwards to 1942 were die forged usually in Britannia(White metal) and given a gilt finish. The properties of this alloy as well as others allows it to retain these finishes quite well. This is documented by Mike 582's post of a well defined original tab that appears to retain 95% of the gilt finish.

The later war devices, like many other metal items produced in the period were of Kriegsmetal a poor quality, zinc based alloy. Zinc is known for absorbing and oxidizing finishes placed onto it, However, it needs humidity or moisture as an "Exciting" agent to begin this chemical process.

Therefore, devices subjected to high enough levels of humidity (RH 50% or higher) will be grey with oxidation. Surfaces that have contacted direct mositure will normally show crusty deposits of Zinc oxide.

Also, In regards to the original post, there was a large group of these Reichs Abschnittsleiter tabs that originated out of Austria in 1991.
The devices and piping were original-The velvet cloth and buckram backing were not. Considered a "Parts" insignia, it came only in this rank and level. The tab illustrated in this first photo however is not one of these and appears to even be of poorer quality. The finish appears to be a gold paint as opposed to a metallic lacquer as used on originals."

Best regards
John Casino

I have brought out some comments, but of course, not all, the reason is some TOP names have made these comments, good and bad, John Casino was one of the few who explained WHY he felt the way he does, in detail. The names give an idea of the level of expertise here, and how they feel. Please read through the links, to get a better idea of the controversy on these tabs.

As you can read, theres still no solid proof, one way or the other in this topic, some very good comments, but the experts seem to agree, either way! good and bad.

Hopefully, by keeping this active, we might get a better understanding as to the origins of these tabs, when they were made, by who, and for what purpose, was it only to decive? are they later war originals that we found, and assembled postwar? Were they only made in the 1990? if so, how do you know?

If we can clear this up here and now, can you think of the impact it will have? This is not a simple example of a fake tunic, its hundreds of collar tabs, and some on uniforms, if you have the information, PLEASE post it here.

Rick H

The Gau Haupt Befehlsleiter rank does exist in post 1942 period references. (The 43 Org book was compiled in 42 and published in 43.)
This thread contains pictures of one period post 1942 publication showing that rank. A very few examples of this rank tab are known to exist and have survived the war. It is doubtful the rank was ever awarded to anyone.


Kent Berg

I answered the question.
I realize you are one of the people here with a vested interest and that your web site has offered these types of eagles on tunics for sale. My argument is unbiased and based on what I know. I have no dog in this fight and I would think that you would be the last person to argue one way or another. I think people with vested interests should avoid the controversy and by doing so not display their obvious biased opinion.

Why is a hundred dollar bill considered counterfeit that does not have the thread and watermark visible when held up to a light? Because real ones have these in them.
Why is this eagle with the humps considered counterfeit? Because real ones do not have them.

Which one of the tabs below is considered real and the other counterfeit? One is made per the RZM specifications, was manufactured per-1945, and is correct. The other is made after 1945, is not made per the RZM specifications, and is not correct.
Can you guess which pair is good?

In this forum there are hundreds of items spoken about each month and numerous items discussed as fakes. I do not see others producing pages from period literature or RZM regulations to back up each fake discussed. The faker and forger are going to make these things as exact as possible so that they are not detectible. That is the idea. I guarantee you the next generation of these post war produced eagles will not have the humps.

2nd set

quote:

I realize you are one of the people here with a vested interest and that your web site has offered these types of eagles on tunics for sale. My argument is unbiased and based on what I know. I have no dog in this fight and I would think that you would be the last person to argue one way or another. I think people with vested interests should avoid the controversy and by doing so not display their obvious biased opinion.

Jeff, Thank you for your comments, and NO, I dont have ANY vested interest in this or others, I have had a request from the person making the post as to why no one will explain the reason there fakes. Please read the posts again, before commenting. Next, I am only aware of one tunic I sold that had these eagles on it, so I dont know where your going with that comment. As for arguing, sorry again, I am, at the request of the thread, asking you and others to explain why? Thats my job here. When help is required of me, I WILL proceed with it, that I have done, but in General, no detailed information has YET be be posted as to why there fake, if they are, great, now we know, if not, well......

Again, sorry if you feel I have a vest interest here, either as a dealer or whatever, you seem a bit defensive, how about bring to light somemore information that might help out here, and yes, the RZM information is great, but what else can you provide? Lets stay on the topic of the tabs, and what the poster was asking about in the first place.

These humps as pictured here and the lack of pebbling to the area around the swastika are what I speak of.

magnification around the wreath really shows the lack of detail in the pebbling

Kent

Always a pleasure....thank you for the exchange

Jeff, thank you for the picture, but, yes we know about the humps, and where they are, Can you provide some more info as to why these are fakes, I am asking for your additional help in the area, as you are a collector of NSDAP collar tabs.

I can also tell you why the humps are there. None have hit on this one yet, so I spent sometime looking into it. Remove the eagle, and look at the backside. The eagle was made, with a solid back, but has three areas indented for the pins, the eagle was made first, then the pins were made second, next, the pins are laid into the eagle recess area, and it appears a heavy press was used to then stamp a piece of alum into the recess, to retain the pin, in doing so, it made the humps appear, as it pressed the soft alum of the eagle body, as the recess is so close to the bottom of the wing, that explains WHY they have the bump, but not when they were made, and why there fakes. Were making progress here, lets not stop, I have provide information as to WHY they have humps, what can anybody else add to there originality, or postwar manufacture.

The style of collar tab being discussed only appeared on the collecting scene within the past 15 years. Prior to that point, to the best of my knowledge, examples of political collar tabs with these "defects" were not known to exist. Further, I know of none of these that have solid veteran provenance. What I do know for a fact is that the original batch of Reichsleitung Abschnittleiter tabs showed up at the Max Show being sold in quantity by a dealer from Europe who is known to bring and sell enmasse reproduction 3rd Reich items.
I do not look at any of these as being pre May, 1945 manufacture. It is likely tht these are either produced and poorly post war assembled from partial or complete original parts or totally reproduction. I believe the answer to ba a combination of both. it appears that we are now in to a second generation of fake political tabs.
I do know that the opinion of some of those perviously cited with regards to the originality of these pieces has changed since their original posts.
Bob

"klaushund

posted 17 March 2003 19:43
although a fairly high level reichsleitung tab, they are around these days. a group of these were found by a european dealer 8-10 years ago. They are original and are usually priced around $250"

Bob, you made this post long ago, so I am assuming you have also had a change of heart here? If so, can you explain to the others as to why? Yes, I mentioned that the others might have also changed there minds, but we have yet to hear from them on this post, so I can only assume so. Did you come across something since your post that lead to believe otherwise? We are getting closer to an answer here, but have only had two comments, anyothers to help out?

Kent-
Quite simply, when I examined the evidence at hand, my conclusions changed due to the evidence that evolved. Further, if you read my entire post, I mentioned at that time the possiblity of post war assembly. When the first Atwood fake daggers appeared in the mid 60's, many collectors were stung due to the fact that many had never handled the less common daggers. it was only after they started to appear in number in the collecting community that doubts as to their authenticity arose. Fakes that were originally accepted to be genuine are later assessed in a different manner after time and tide present a strong case for a change of opinion. There is no shame in being stung or mistakenly accepting a fake for genuine. it has happened to most of us and more than once. there is a problem when evidence leads one to an opposite conclusion and that evidence is ignored.
Bob

Kent your theory about the manufacturing of these eagles does not address that of detail around the swastika and wreath...the missing pebbling, please address this as well.

Your passion and yearning for the truth is an inspiration to us all!

Jeff, I only have the information I explained in detail a moment ago, I have nothing to add, as I do not know anymore. Sorry. As for the truth, I again, please read all the comments in this forum before posting, that I am following through at the request of the person who posted the thread to start with, he was never given a detailed reason, even after asking several times, so now, I am asking for him, and others as well. If you have a comment, please keep it on topic of the collar tabs only. If you have information on the pebbling, please present it in detail for us all, and please remember, this is not for me, its for all of us.

BOB, saw your post about the assembly, its in the link to read, I think your hinting to new evidence here, and thats what were after, new evidence that there bad, if you have more info, please post it, were on the right track here, and more and more is coming out on these, remember, I am not siding either way as Moderator, I want to help out those asking.

Kent-
I believe the greatest evidence to be items procured from veterans prior to the birth of the great era of reproduction or as I like to call them, items from the 4th Reich. I can accept some explanations of small variations when it comes to hand produced items, such as hand embroidered insignia. However, when we are dealing with die stamped material that was mass produced and also subject to conformity to design and quality by the Reichszugmeisteri, acceptance must be at a much higher level of skepticism. As I mentioned, the questionable pattern 4th pattern insignia suddenly appeared out of nowhere in the early 90's. Prior to that, I never heard of insignia with the flaws being discussed. As more and more appears without very old provenance, one must deduce that this material is very suspect.
I doubt if there is any thing else I can add to this thread-at least at this time.
Bob

Greetings fellow collectors


Good to see this thread has woken up again - hopefully someone will find the wise stones this time sort of say.

Let's all keep our minds open, be constructive and most importentent of all behave like gentlemen please! Mudd wrestling looks best with our beloved opposite sex

It is very true that I have contacted Kent Berg as I have many others in the quest to find out wether these tabs are genuine or bad (in hope of finding proof). I as a relatively newer collector doesn't have the same connections, Network and not to forget experience and wisdom as the elder collectors have, hence I found it natural to poke arround a bit.

I've got many different answers from respected collectors and dealers and I will not say the source of the statements as "he said that - and he said this" is simply not me! However I find two statements very interesting:

Person A told me: I've bought tunics with these tabs from vets as far back in the early 1970'ies.

Person B told me: I've bought such tabs back in the 1980'ies at the Max Show from Mr. Johannes Floch's table.

Doesn't that give food for thoughts when these first are supposed to have surfaced in the early 1990'ies? It sure did for me wich is why I haven't given up...yet! (Though I nearly did when Mr. Floch's name surfaced).

Also when looking back at various threads there seems to be a bit confusement about mixing up the tabs found in Austria with the ones found in Poland...or am I the only one who sees that and are a bit confused about the two events?

@Expand: There is something that I first overseen...on the first page of this thread You post a picture (I presume period pre May 1945?) with all collar tabs of the Ortsleitung and the Oberabschnittsleiter is among them. At that point You don't say anything about that Oberabschnittsleiter didn't excists - on the controary You say that it's suitable for town mayor. But next You say they didn't excist...why the sudden change?

@Klaushund: You also had a very sudden change - first saying very convinced that there is absolutely nothing wrong with these collar tabs - and now there is...why the sudden change?

Digging back in some old threads, I fell over one particular that Kent Berg also listed: http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/859099914/m/1003092457/r/9413093067#9413093067 as Aylson Doyle has a pair of Kriesleitung Hauptabschnittsleiter tabs. These are exactly the same as mine - even have the same maker stamp "26" on the RZM label...yet they doesn't seem to have the bumps under the wings...could be the photo though. I think the above tabs on that thread (Reichsleitung Abschnittsleiter) are also the same though it seems like the makers stamp is 24?
What I find peculiar is that when this thread was posted 2 years ago these were only suggested to be controvercial - and now they are fake!?!

Am I the only one who sees the "tell-tale" of "telling my neighbour that my other nieghbour got a new Volkswagen and due the words travels the Volkswagen becomes a Rolls Royce" - type of...or are somebody holding back facts that surfaced within the past 2 years?

@Aylson Doyle: If You still have the above mentioned tabs please take some new photos and post on this thread if possible - thank You.

Another thing that has bothered me is the tunic it self. Looking at how the collartabs are sewen onto the tunic (picture posted on first page of this thread). To me it looks like the exact same type of thread used to sew the whole tunic. If the collar tabs are fake - then the tunic should also be fake - right? Is there any VALID reason to belive the tunic is a fake as well as the arm band wich is attached with the same thread?

Another thing I find peculiar is when I try to step into the fakers shoes sort of speak - why the heck manufacture somthing that is totally different - and not seen before when trying to fake something that should convince collectors to think item X is being genuine...that is the whole point for a faker...decieve other people and make money of it! By that the faker has to get as close to the known genuine piece as possible - otherwise would his "investment" be lost in advance. If I were a faker I sure would have chosen same metal, setup (not using flat prongs if the genuine had round ones) and as close to the finish as possible and so on. With these eagles on these tabs nothing are alike any other eagles - but the design! It sure doesn't make sence in my book - does it do that in Yours?

Having the fakers issue in mind and that these tabs should have been sold to dealers for about $20-40 a piece or was it a pair depending wether the seller liked the dealer or not ...well, it doesn't matter that much as it probably wasn't the faker himself whos sold them direct to the dealers but a middleman and probably even more than one. I don't recall seeing thousands of these floating on the marked either - actually I can't find any for sale at the moment Adding up all these things...how much would that leave the faker as income on an expensive low range production with totally "new invented" setup he also should cover? I think this question could be the answer!

Hopefully this post of mine isn't causing a too big stirr up and it's not my intention to step on anybodys toes - but hopefully it helps to throw some light upon these rather controvercial collar tabs.

I'm still a bit confused about them - but feels that I'm getting closer to a "solution" that I sure can live with - that is, if there are no bulletproof facts that surfaces wich I prefer over anything else!


Cheers,
Carsten

Bob, thanks for your post, I do understand, hopefully some others will post as well with any information they have, until that happens, or new info comes to light, we may be at the middle of the road on these,its seems split on good/bad, but if that happens, as it can, all must remember this, if some proclaim these fake, that does not indeed make them fake, nor does it make them original Thrid Reich. When dealing with these items, unless you (not you in particular) were there when they were made, either 1945, or 2005, its impossible to say for 100% an item, any item is fake, unless there so bad, its funny. But it can be a bad situation when a collector comes out, and proclaims an item fake, without positive proof, this hurts not only the item in question, but the hobby as a whole. If anymore information can be found, please post it here.

Hello All,

I believe Jeff,(Exspand),is 100% right in every respect of his post!
I have also observed every picture I could get over the internet and reference books I have regardind to the 1939 4th and final pattern NSDAP collar tabs and NONE are with that hump!
Also the paper tags on those tabs are brand new,that I think it�s impossible after more than 60 YEARS ! Besides,some of those tabs have a RED tag instead of the blue tag which is according to regulations.

*Carsten,(Herr Flick): Of course I can ! I made new scans of those pairs with a lot more detail and also I made scans of the insignia in some of my NSDAP-PL uniforms.
Both pairs I will post picture bellow I got from BILL SHEA of the RUPTURED DUCK in 1997 and the LAST uniform with FAKE insignias also came from him in the same year.Please note that in the year of 1997 Bill Shea didn�t have a website and I got these from his mailed list,do you remember those days?
OK, first pair

Reverse,

Detail 01

Detail 02

Detail 03

Second Pair

Reverse

Detail 04

TUNIC 01

TUNIC 01a

TUNIC 01b

TUNIC 01c

I just posted the note below in the SS cloth Forum where a similar discussion is going on.
**************
Whoa. Slow down a bit here folks.

I feel there is a lot left to discover in all the militaria we collect. I personaly do not buy the argument that something unseen (or perhaps just un-noticed) until recently is bad simply for that reason.

Case in point: Until 3 year ago everyone said that ONLY Jacobs made the only SS dagger with an exclamation point after the motto an that M7/29 was Jacobs' RZM code. People who questioned this were dismissed out of hand. I acquired an early SS dagger by Klitterman & Moog with an exclamation point and a second one has since surfaced. Most peple now also accept that M7/29 is K&M not Jacobs.

No one on GDC, myself included, is such an unchallengeable expert that they can dismiss an artefact without a specific reason. What I suggests that if anyone thinks these are bad eagles, then please state a reason other than they have not seen it before.
************

They could be good or bad, but this should be decided on provable points.

Dave

TUNIC 02

TUNIC 02a

TUNIC 02b

TUNIC 02c

quote:

Originally posted by AYLSON DOYLE:
Hello All,

I believe Jeff,(Exspand),is 100% right in every respect of his post!
I have also observed every picture I could get over the internet and reference books I have regardind to the 1939 4th and final pattern NSDAP collar tabs and NONE are with that hump!
Also the paper tags on those tabs are brand new,that I think it�s impossible after more than 60 YEARS ! Besides,some of those tabs have a RED tag instead of the blue tag which is according to regulations.

*Carsten,(Herr Flick): Of course I can ! I made new scans of those pairs with a lot more detail and also I made scans of the insignia in some of my NSDAP-PL uniforms.
Both pairs I will post picture bellow I got from BILL SHEA of the RUPTURED DUCK in 1997 and the LAST uniform with FAKE insignias also came from him in the same year.Please note that in the year of 1997 Bill Shea didn�t have a website and I got these from his mailed list,do you remember those days?
OK, first pair

Have you tried to return these to Bill?

One big problem with the Reich's level tabs is that I have not been able to find a red tag on any other NSDAP item. I have seen genuine tabs of the same style and they had blue tags.

TUNIC 03

TUNIC 03a

TUNIC 03b

TUNIC 03c

LAST TUNIC,take a good look on the insignias,
TUNIC 04

TUNIC 04a