UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum Political colar tabs - god/bad?

Your Ortsgruppenleiter is just begging for a full mannequin display. Something about red and gold displays!

The blue RZM tag is a very good sign - the fakes in this pattern almost always have improper red ones. I say the set is all good.

I know this is cross-topic, but it may well be that the tunic was worn at the 1936 Olympics, and upgraded a few years later with the 1939 fourth pattern insignia. I don't worry about fabrics not matching (pants, jacket & hat), since they all were made separately and frequently replaced.

Hi All,

I thought there was a big controversy about the bubble on the under side of the wing? Are these now accepted?

Bill Rannow

In my opinion, I think the metal devices on these tabs are post war.

Hmmm...You may be correct, Jeff. Comparing side by side, there are numerous differences here. Neck, wings, feathers, swaz, tallons...Any other thoughts? I was trying here Carsten, but I think that the original assumption that these tabs have been played with, is likely. The differences are really quite striking, when you compare them. In fact, the tallons are terrible. Don't give up, there are quality sets out there. As for this one, I would pass...

Now I'm getting really confused and I think I'm not the only one.

Are there only one pattern accepted as genuine of these collar tabs eagles - and only one maker of these as well...or were there different makers and variants like seen on combat badges?

I'm also curious why the "bumpy" eagles are presumed fakes - are there any proof of this? The only knowledge that has come to me was that they were first seen in the 1990'ies - does that make them outright fake?

If the "bumpy eagles" are fakes I can't get into my head that everything is different vs the shown known genuine example...I mean it wouldn't make sence of producing a fake that didn't look like anything else - all the details are different! Producing a fake it would be made as close to the known orginal trying to decieve people - unless of course we are talking about a fantasy piece...wich these collar tabs obvious aren't.

When looking at these obvious very controvercial tabs I must say that they doesn't exactly look new to me - especially when the looking inside the left collar tab. To me the prongs says old...doesn't that count at all? I've attached a closeup of the prongs - am I all wrong on the observation of the prongs?

You have all probably also seen the photos in the other forum. Are there any signs of the tunic being fake itself? Does the way the collar tabs are applied look foulty?

I'm asking these questions as I simply haven't got a clue on most of these things!

I would like to add that I'm not desperate "wanting this to be genuine" as I can simply return the group - end of story. However as said on the other forum, returning the group would most likely mean split up and sold for profit - hence I'm not letting it rest so easy.

Either way (returning the group or not) I sure would like to get to the bottom of this "bumpy eagle issue" ...don't we all?

@Johann: You are killing me with that magnificent display BTW I am very carefull handling these things. I assured that the tab could get back in place by pulling the string/stiches...otherwise I wouldn't have dared touching the tab in the first place


Cheers,
Carsten

thought i'd wade in..the biggest and most common maker of political insignia eagles is maker m1/177 you will see that on nearly every example you find.the only other one in my collection that isn't is m1/14.based on those pics of the eagles,i can only assume that they are either cast,and that line from the top is a casting seam,or it is die stamped and that line is where the dies meet..i have never seen a fourth pattern eagle that was not made of zinc and was not solid.a very important consideration when looking at eagles,is the swastika and the pebbling behind it.they should be well defined,and prominent,regerdless of how much finish is applied over them.

the number stated before should read m1/34. i see now what you are saying about the construction. this type you are referring to is considered semi hollow body.this eagle with this type of prong attachment would be considered a deluxe style.the m1/177 zinc'ers are usually of lower quality,most found solid,with soldered pin attachments

close up of swaz.notice detail of talons,and wreath,and pebbling in background

Just the fact that there is controversy to begin with over whether these devices are real or not should be enough to make you pass. When you get ready to sell, do you want to have to deal with the same issues with the next guy?

This single oak leaf rank first appeared in the 90�s at the Reich level. They have now started using it at every level. Reich was first because that was the most expensive and fakers got more money at that level. Now that all PL items have gone up, you see this device at every level.

They are faking armbands as well. Have you noticed the glut of Orts level Ortsgruppenleiter armbands for sale? Every dealer has one now. A few years ago you could not find them anywhere. Do you think another warehouse in east Europe was just found full of these too?

Many auctions & dealers have started selling just the PL tunic complete with piping now. No insignia and ready to �make your own PL tunic�. These are also, in my opinion, fake. Again, perhaps another warehouse had these and was recently discovered?

Regarding the age to the prongs, they don�t say old to me. The fakers age this stuff with tea and coffee and all kinds of chemicals that you can�t begin to know. The �age� on the prongs means nothing.

The reason the RZM came into existence was so that things were made exactly as the NSDAP wanted them made. If you get a chance to view RZM regulations or periodicals, do yourself a favor and do so. They sent out probe sets too so that the makers had examples of what they had to make.

So to answer your question, no there were not multiple ways to make these or multiple dies to cast them or various patterns. They were identical and as exact as German precision can be, which is pretty exact.

The blue RZM tag is not a good sign, it is a bad sign. It means the fakers who use to put HJ RZM red tags on these have now become educated (by these forums no doubt) and now put �correct� blue ones on. Ask yourself, if they can counterfeit currency how difficult would that RZM tag be?

The gilt color is incorrect too.

How many more warning/danger/questionable signs do you need?

Probe set examples sent out to makers in order that they comply with RZM regs.

Hi guys these eagles are most often seen on wartime produced tunics. I sold a tab similiar to these on the Orst tunic pictured to political dealer/collector Mike Hansen at the S0S. He stated that some people have issue with them but he has none. Mine was Reichleitung level and also had an RZM tag. Marc Verstrate, forum member and dealer sold me a Kreis level tunic, named, tagged and dated with similiar tabs and single oakleaf. The tabs are as tightly sewn as is imagineable and have settled tightly into the collars. They are stitched with matching stitching as the underside of the collar.The tunic is dated 1941.There is no way that the insignia could have been applied to existing collar tabs. Marc gave me a money back 100% guarantee as to authenticity. Should I be asking for a refund? I have no problem with the tunic as shown and although there are differences that are apparent in the eagles shown I accept the gilt as earlier initial production and the other as later wartime production. I too have seen many of these tabs in varying piping colors. In all instances the manufacture of the tabs and piping was correct. These eagles when indisputably authentic are not scarce and are not comparatively expensive. Political cap eagles can still be found for 40.00 and 60.00 when mint and less for used examples and collar eagles are less. Why fake them at all? Hell, the tabs hardly even sell at all except when they are embroidered. My 2 cents, sorry for the diatribe. cheers, Ryan S

The tabs are but the tip of the iceberg. The point I was making is that with this information, the entire ensemble becomes suspect.

These tabs can be applied today just as they were then...without any sign or evidence of same, to state otherwise is very naive.

The problem with these old original eagles is that you can almost never re-apply them again. The prongs break off!!!

Ryan, it seems funny that you put the same value on your opinion that I had in my mind as I read it...2 cents.

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Reply

Wow is there no end to the sarcasm and abuse? All joking aside, Jeff when are you going to post pictures of that delicious summer Orst tunic that you showed me at the show of shows? I was expecting them a very long time ago. It is a beauty!!! cheers, Ryan S P.S. You know what they say, opinions are like a......., everyone has one.

Ryan, glad you like my hunor!

No one wants to see a silly double breasted white PL tunic.......

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Reply

Maybe I am naive but I would like to think that some of the more respected forum members here are above board. I thought that Marc Verstraete was such a chap. Now if anyone knows or thinks differently I would like to know. Also if Marc does not know his political items after all I would also like to know. I am guilty of trusting some respected and well known forum members. I purchased an officer's kepi from an old time forum friend who is well respected for his knowledge as it pertains to Kepis and SA items. I sold the kepi to a respected forum member who has replied to this very thread who emailed me with some suspicions. I recently did a transaction with another political forum friend and master. The items from his bunker were less than satisfactory.I did not purchase solely based on reputation but on their word as gentlemen and their respective knowledge base. Our dear friend with the group must be as confused as hell. One member, knowledgeable and respected states that he has no problem with the tabs or the uniform as a group and two other respected members say that they have their doubts.On my tunic there is no evidence of any previous insignia that I can see. This means that the tabs had to be blank.Why with such a great piece as my tunic add fake and detectable eagles worth fifty cents when you could spend 20.00 for an authentic pair? I do not see the logic behind it. Its not like an SS tunic where the insignia can be well over 1000.00. These tabs when original are not that expensive and the metal devices are for the most part cheap and available. Just my fifty cents worth. cheers, RyanS

Just a thought. I had my collection purged years back and checked for reproductions. It received a passing grade. The moment 4 years ago that I became a forum member and began buying from forum members I have received 5 fake or tampered with items. What's up with that??? cheers, Ryan Jeff, I for one would love to see pictures of that double breasted tunic.

if the tunic was denazified by just removing the insignia and not the collar tabs,i can see someone getting a replacement eagle to make it complete.hard to do but ??.most of the real tab insignia around that is loose is not in the best condition,so a perfect finish copy would do the trick,i would like to see close ups of the eagle..

Greetings everyone


Sorry for my late reply - I have more balls up in the air than I can catch these days...not good when several unforseen events also occours

I see many valid points for and against hence I haven't been much wiser on the topic to authenticity. As Ryan says; I must be cufused as hell - to that I can only say...YES!

@Stephen: Thank You for chippin in on the RZM label. I don't think the tunic has been modified and it would be unlikely if he only had this one uniform from 1936 to 1945. I've posted what the RZM label said earlier on this thread - What do You think about those numbers (have to say I'm a bit unsure with the prefix "M4/" as one of the prongs covers most of that - however the "4/" is without any doubts) ...are those legit or? Looking in the new book of Yours ...that would be for a belt buckle ...or? Partent my knowledge - I have only collected near two years (primary awards), but if this only say M4 I would be in $hite up to my neck - right?

@Kursk: Thank You for posting Your eagle, I clearly see the differences - for a start my eagles doesn't have pebbled background behind swaztika - but also many other differences as well wich has been pointed out. Is Yours also aluminium or is that one buntmetal? As for larger photos...I don't think my 8 Megapixel digicam can produce larger than posted...well they were orginal larger (3,5 MB in size) but with the 75k limit per picture I can't produce more magic with ACDSee and PhotoShop than what I've already did I'm affraid
However feel free to email me and I can respond with the larger photos.

BTW - For those who have tried to email me but haven't got a respond untill today - I have changed it to one I can read all the time without any trouble.

@Expand/Jeff?: Yes, You have a point with the "red flags"...however I don't agree that all the "flags" are "red". Most can be explained with a good portion of logic. For instance that he couldn't have worn that specific uniform at the Olympics as the insignia is post 1936...OK, that's a fact! But that doesn't mean that this uniform couldn't have belonged to this particular Mayor of Leipzig Miltitz. If You had selveral uniforms and You would like to keep one for souvenier - wouldn't You rather keep the minty unworn one than a well used one? I think that also explains the lack of loops for a GPB wich I think would have been suitable for such a fellow. Again theory - but could well be in my book.

Having in mind that these things told were forwarded from the grandchildren to the "estate cleaner" who forwarded this to my connection who is an old retired gent who again forwarded this to me on telephone. It would be a miracle if none of the things told didn't get slightly bend or misunderstood during such a process - hence that particular uniform was worn at the opening of the 1936 Olympics.

However the collar tabs authenticity...well, those we are discussing now with no proof of one way or the other direction. Second, presuming You have seen the thread in the other forum, I don't have any legit answer to the sticker residue on the pole top wich I would call the second red flag. Those two are my only worries as the uniform are matching in size and none of the items are questionable besides the collar tabs on the tunic wicht itself should be authentic.

BTW I sure wouldn't mind having a closer look at all those nice collar tabs You have posted - impossible to see any details.

Uhmm...I hope I haven't sounded harsh again - if so - definetly not my intention!

Regarding the gold colour I have to say that I'm a lost idiot behind a camera, and the photos posted doesn't show the colour propperly. To illustrate that I have a couple of photos (taken in daylight in shade - with use of flash they would have been even worse I belive) of a Mayer GAB wich has lost its finish totally wich makes it appear as shiny brass alike when looking at it. As You can see the photos taken with the camera wasn't that lucky, and the scan I just made makes it look too dull and dark as well. BTW the cloth I used as back ground is as fire engine red as it gets - not magenta!

If I don't respond before next week it's not that I don't want to, but my girl friend will make a roadkill out of me if I sit the whole weekend in front of the puter while she is here


Cheers,
Carsten

I am still convinced that the rank never existed to begin with.
Ley�s 1940 and 43 Org book says it does and so every book written since has followed that lead.

Many period books published after Ley�s 43 Org book show the highest Orts rank to be Abschnittsleiter.
This book, �Deutsche Uniformen�, is one and here is the plate listing the information.

The rank and party structure were officially under Ley, but he no longer called the shots after 1938 or so. Hess and Bormann did! His Org books were widely ignored and in one area, the Gauleiter put out a memo to those under him to ignore the book altogether.

The Org books also say that at Gau level the highest rank obtainable was Ober-Befehlsleiter when this same book shows it to be Haupt-Befehlsleiter. I know this book to be true in this aspect because I have an example of that rank in my collection.

highest rank in Orts as noted

Gau Haupt Befehlsleiter

Hello,
I agree with Exspend.Those tabs are bad.
Sometime ago I posted a pair I bought from BILL SHEA with the same flaw on the wing of the eagle and I was suspecting they were bad and ALL members that posted opinions said it was good.Even a Reichs level pair with RED RZM label behind.
So I got FAKE items !!
Aylson Doyle

It's quite possible the fakers have moved onto more convincing blue RZM tags. Most of the fake ones you see on these tabs are red (not HJ, because HJ RZM tags had the HJ diamond on the right). Not being red doesn't prove it's real, just that it isn't clearly fake for that reason - it may be fake for other reasons.

What I think you see on the tag is actually "A4" which is an RZM code for certain types of cloth insignia. For a metal RZM code you'd have to look on the back of the eagle or oakleaf bar itself. It should be an M1 number on the wing with logo usually on the opposite side.

I have had original eagles off these patches without destroying them - can be done, but tricky.

Jeff, what a sweet pair of celleon embroidered tabs! Impressive!

Greetings everybody

@Stephen: I've had a carefull look inside the collar tab once more - and it does indeed look like A4 and not M4...phew! However I'm not going to fumble anyfuther with the collar tabs as with my ten thumbs the chances for me ruining the collar tabs or break the splits are at 95%

@Jeff: First let me say that those embrodered collar tabs are what dreams are made of - outstanding condition and very beautiful Thanks for posting those babies

I've dug the matching booklet out from my mess. However my example doesn't have a publication year. I would have been releaved if it had said "published in 1945" as that would have put an end to this issue for good.

However since it isn't so, to me, that makes us go nowhere yet regarding proof of authenticity - remember these tabs are suppose to be war/late war issued regarding to others oppinions. But I totally aggree that it could point in the direction that this rank wasn't suitable for Orts Level...nothing more though!

I will post a couple of the relevant pages and would like to hear what edition Your booklet is as well as if there is a publication year in it.

You and probably most other think I'm stubbern, naive and wont listen. However I do listen and yes, I'm probably a bit naive - but I seek the bullet proof evidence!

Since there is so many things that we never get to know, don't know of yet and new unseen things still frequently pops up, I tend to lean on "Innocent until proven guilty". I think that is fairly reasonable as to my trust towards my contact and friend.


Cheers,
Carsten

Page 1 and 2 of the booklet...

And the page Jeff also posted...

None of these books had the years listed that they were publsihed, unfortunately.
You can tell that this issue was published after 1942 (when the 43 Org book was published) by checking other rank charts as well as the PO chart you posted.

Most people in the hobby want this stuff to be real so bad and have the attitude "innocent until proven guilty". Unfortunately, this is exactly the opposite attitude you need to take in order to prevent bad material from coming into your collection.
This attitude is what the dealers like to see....and like I said, most have it, so you are among the majority.

Gentlemen,
I am not sure if I am beeing able to follow you.
Are you saying that the "flaw" under both wings of a political eagle from a collar tab is OK ?And "may be" because some were made at the end of the war?
And the "red" tag may also be OK too?
Aylson Doyle

I posted a pair of these collar tabs with the hump on the bottom of the wing about a year ago. Jason Burmeister came in with the opinion that this type of collar tab was bad and I agree with with him. Mike

I have several pair of tabs and the detail is amazing on the eagles as compared to the eagle detail on the suspect tabs, I would be concerned, isn't this hobby fun?

Hello again,
Is there a conclusion about the "hump" or "flow" of those NSDAP PL collar insignias ?
I am asking this because I noticed something else very interesting about this. A famous dealer offered a complete NSDAP uniform ensemble a short time ago that I will talk about, but later.
Anyone ?
Regards,
Aylson Doyle

The current consensus is that the bumpy eagles are bad.

bad, repos, not real, post war....how many ways can it be said?

Herr Flick,

You can gauge the approximate year published of these booklets by referencing other books, like the org books, and figure these were published after 1942. To do this you have to look at the rank plates thorugh out the book to determine that. Some ranks were only shown in the 43 org book which were not shown in the previous org book that was publsihed in 1940. They did not publish the org book in 41 or 42. Simple deduction......
To make mattters worse, this book has also been post-war reprinted......I have several original booklets and one post war reprint.

I have been watching this posting on the NSDAP collar tabs for sometime now, and feel its time to intervene. First of all, this posting is generating a lot of comments, and many are viewing it as well, they may not be posting, but are viewing it as it unfolds.

The discussion started about the uniform, then went right to the tabs, the "bump" under the wings of the collar tabs posted at the start of the thread. A simple question was asked if they were good or bad, that was somewhat answered, but again it was asked as to WHY, and as I read this thread, I could not see any explanation as to why there bad. Comments are important, as they can help us to understand why sometimes good or bad, but, this forum depends on those who help by not just saying there "fake" or "bad", or other, without backing up their comments, the code of conduct says......Be friendly, polite, positive, and helpful. If you think someone�s artifact is not correct or your opinion differs from his or hers, be sure to explain why.

I think we could all benefit if those making the comments to please explain in detail, what makes these good or bad, and maybe provide some detail to the explanation, and maybe some other evidence to back up their statements, we can only learn when those commenting are willing to explain why something is the way it is, comments made on this forum are viewed by many, not just experts, but beginners as well, they above all need the help we can offer, and they look up to the known members as to what they post. If they post an items bad, many just leave with that, to afraid to ask in detail as to why. Its time for those making these comments to please take the time, in detail to explain as to why they feel the way they do, if they have some documents to back up there claims, please also present those as well, we can all use the help. After all, thats all the person starting the thread was asking for.

When someone attempts to duplicate or forge or counterfeit something, they strive to make it appear as if original. The purpose is to fool and deceive others into believing it is real. They have been faking Third Reich material since the war ended, this is a fact!

It all comes down to money. With regards to supply and demand, there is more demand for Third Reich material than there is supply. Many people make a living selling the stuff, so when there is nothing to sell, except the occasional collection that comes on the market, the dealers are not making much money. In addition, we have more and more dealers as time goes by, selling less and less material. Where does it all keep coming from then? (The behind the Iron Curtain line is obviously losing its steam, since the wall came down long ago.)

We have motive for unscrupulous people to try to reproduce the stuff�money. Many people have a vested interest in convincing many other people that all things are real in this hobby.

Fortunately for the collector, there are many reputable dealers still, and much period and post war reference material to educate your self with. These forums are not unbiased learning centers for collectors either. All have some kind of vested interest in promoting the good, bad, and ugly. Many of the moderators are dealers, agents of dealers, or even people who mean well, but lack basic knowledge to speak intelligently about the subject matter. Many forums are sponsored by dealers (or run by them.)

One useful period reference is RZM source material. Unfortunately this period material is hard to come by and virtually no one has bothered to reprint the hand books and manuals that this organization printed as a guideline for most everything manufactured during the Third Reich. The RZM or Reichszeugmeisterei was set up to supervise and oversee production and pricing for all things related to the NSDAP party, and eventually many other areas.

They are one guide that exposed these eagles. Post war material to include the 1984 book by John Angolia, �Cloth Insignia of the NSDAP & SA� has many close up pictures of the collar tabs and none that I can see have these humps under the wings. Since these eagles first started appearing in the 1990�s that would seem to be the reason none are shown in the Angolia book.

I can not find the eagle RZM regulations, but here is a pictured example of RZM description for a Political Leader�s button. Look at all the specifications and detail they go to in order to explain the required manufacturing of a simple button. (Perhaps another forum member has the collar tab eagle spec sheet available to post?)

In addition, advanced collectors and collections with history do not have these types of eagles. I suppose that we are to assume that they just suddenly started appearing in the 90�s and we are not supposed to question them? Almost all the Political Leaders tunics sold in German auctions now and many for sale here in the states have this type of eagle, which prior to the 90�s was never seen. This for me is reason enough to be leery.

I am not sure what proof one requires to state for sure that something is fake? Every collector should look at all Third Reich material as if it is fake before deciding to buy. Because of the lack of material and desire to possess, most everyone treats the stuff exactly the opposite way they should.

To paraphrase a good friend and mentor:

In today�s collecting market, the collector must consider everything FAKE until proven otherwise. Why? Because we collectors want so very desperately for this stuff to be real (Dealers know that and they play on it.).

Our main defense is knowledge because knowledge is power. Power over the dealers. Over the dealers, because they only want to make a buck, and many items which are not, often become "original". Over yourself because you want to believe it is real so bad, but your reasoning and systematic analysis indicates otherwise. Do research!

Analysis is crucial. Analysis involves study. In order to study properly, you must have the tools to do so. First is the 15x loupe. It is practical for shows, but not as good as a dissecting stereo microscope. Absolute must. Need to have a high intensity light for side illumination too. This item can show you where threads have been re-sewn or material has been re-work and put together. Inconsistency in cloth, threads, attachments are all brought into your vision with this item. Many high end dealers use them to verify material, how many dealers have ever suggested you as the collector buy one?

A portable UV light is critical in dealing with textile items.

Research the National Archives and or the Hoover Institute. The amount of information there is staggering, to include RZM period reference, tailoring periodicals, period pictures, etc etc.

The field you select to pursue must be small enough for YOU to be the expert, and yet not so small that you run out of material to pursue. (My field is all things Political Leaders related.)

Lastly, but probably most important. . . everything is a fake. Or manipulated, or a parts piece, or anything else other than what you hoped it might be. This attitude you MUST have, to preserve your capital, and protect yourself from the dealers. Only when it passes the strict criteria you have established for what is acceptable to you, will you acquire it. Does it have that "feel good" aura about it? How will you explain it to your future buyers? Or will it stand on its own?

Any advanced collector simply does not buy or own tunics or tabs with this type of PL eagle.

Why does the Gau Haupt Befehlsleiter not exist in NSDAP literature? For example, the 1943 Organisationsbuch der NSDAP (see table 22 and table 24 of that edition) lists the rank immediately under that of Gauleiter as that of Ober Befehlsleiter. According to the Organisationsbuch, the Haupt Befehlsleiter grade only exists at the Reichsleitung level.

Jeff, thank you for your detailed explanation on fakes, but, I still am asking, not only for myself and others, but for the person who started this thread, why is the eagle, as you have stated, a fake, postwar, etc, you have made these clear comments, and given your study in the field, I was hoping to get a detailed reason why there fake, we all understand what your saying, but its still off the point, were not asking about fakes in general, nor was the question about dealers, or collections, or dealers who are moderators, were asking why this eagle is a fake, regardless of collectors or collections who dont have them, it will only help if you can explain in detail as to why there fakes. I fully understand what you say, but its a generalized statement thats been made for decades in the hobby.

I can also understand that there are now appearing all over, thats been made before, but your statement still did answer the question, why? Education is so important here, not just comments that all items should be viewed as fakes first, these lessons may be fine for the beginner, but not the for advanced collector, he or she already knows this, and quite well, So, I ask again, what information do you have, or others for that matter, that can show, these eagles to be fakes, or postwar made.

We cannot learn if people make comments that an items fake, and leave it at that, this forum is designed to help and educate, and it can only happen if those who make these comments, are prepared to show as to why they feel this way, I cant believe that no one here cannot explain exactly WHY these are fakes, if you can do this, or others, you might be able to clear up this mystery once and for all.