UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum Political colar tabs - god/bad?

Greetings,

I recently bought a uniform/standarte group. I were told that there might be an issue with the collar tabs on the tunic, but never got to know if they were good or bad.

I don't know if it's allowed to post a link to a thread in another forum in this forum, as there is larger photos available there as well of the whole group?

If someone here would be kind enough to share their thoughts I would be glad.


Cheers,
Carsten

Right collar tab...

I would have to say the tabs are repro's, as the hump on the bottom of the wings are indicative of repros that came out in the 90's

Hi Laurence,

Thanks You for the reply - much appreciated. However I'm a bit surpriced to hear that as that didn't quite match Your first remark in the other forum.

Since I've posted photos of the full group as well as larger photos of the collar tabs in the other forum, I will continue the discussion there about this issue.

I will of course watch this thread and I still welcome any thoughts.


Cheers,
Carsten

The pictures are not good enough to determine anything for certain. If you could take straight on close ups, this would help.

This would be an extremely rare rank tab at the Orts level. There is even some debate if the rank ever was awarded at Orts level or if it even existed at the Orts level.

Books like LTC John Angolia's, “Cloth Insignia of the NSDAP and SA”, and Robert Ley’s period “Organizationsbuch der NSDAP” show this Ober-Abschnittsleiter as the highest rank within the Orts, subsequent other period material state that it did not exist.

The “Deutschen Uniformen” booklets published after the 1943 Org book indicate that the highest rank within the Orts was the Abschnittsleiter, a single oak leaf.

This was going to be a 1000 year Reich and the Political Leaders did not start out at the highest rank within their job function. A Kreisleiter or Ortsgruppenleiter (which I assume this tunic is?) could be any of the top 5 ranks within their level/rank structure. (These ranks were actually pay grades similar to the US civil servant or postal pay grades.)
Most Kreisleiters were 2 leaf or 2 leaf and a bar (or 2)….seldom ever was a Kreisleiter wearing the top rank of 3 leaves. The same is true at Orts level.

Based on this and what little I can tell from the pictures posted, I would speculate that the tabs are post war.

The piping on these tabs looks proper, as does the base. It's possible that the insignia on the tabs has been upgraded in rank.

Hi expand and Johann,

Good to hear some more feedback - and very interesting as well! Unfortunately I can't make better sized photos as to the 50k posting limit while my orginal photos are 3MB+ in size. I've tried to reduce and cut some of the photos wich I will post, though I'm affraid they wont do the trick.

@expand: Regarding the rank - this is suppose to have belonged to the Oberbürgermeister of a town next to larger city Leipzig called "Leipzig Miltitz".

BTW Would the posting limit be different if I were a paid member?

I don't know if this goes, if not I have to take some verbal spanking and moderator please feel welcome to edit my post and remove link if this is against posting rules. The whole group can be seen here: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92946

If someone would like to see the large pictures I can email them.


Cheers,
Carsten

Well here it goes...first an "apetizer shot" of most of the group. Sadly due the size limit I can't use copy protection as that eats up even more "k"'s.

Some better details of the left collar tab...upper part

Lower part of left collar tab...DOH! Just noticed that the file limit has been changed to 75k

The seams of the left collar tab has gone up in one of the edges (maybe deliberately done - don't know though)

A peak inside...

Reverse left side of the collar. Of notice it should be said that the right collar tab is totally undamaged.

Carsten, I like the way the grouping is presented, as this is how the booty was brought home. The olympic suitcase is cool in itself. IMO, this is a well kept uniform, and I like it. Congrats. Having said that, others feel very strongly about seeing those little rounded humps under the eagle's wings. I would like to hear Klaushund's opinion too.

I noticed your post at WAF, that you may be considering returning the set. Again, I think that your set is real, right down to the necktie. The only question is weather or not the tab insignia has been "played with". The base tab and piping is correct, and piping is correctly attached. Here is my PL necktie, which came with a complete vet broughtback set, purchased directly from the vet. Can you post yours too?

Hi herr Flick
A valid point. I stated that it was a nice find, since that time I posted some NSDAP rank tabs i was looking at to buy and I learnt that 1 set I was looking at were considered a repro, for the same reason I mentioned about yours. I don't excepct you to take my word as gospel, just my opinion, and if that fact is refuted I will mention that also. It is still a nice find

Herr Flick-
I concur with Exspand that the photos do not show enough detail to make a judgement these are reproduction collar tabs. First, you know the source of the material. If the information is valid, I would seriously doubt the tunic has been fooled with. Secondly, every other item in your grouping is undoubtedly an original item.
As this paygrade was likey used at the Ortsgruppen level, I don't see any valid reason for just the tabs to be bad. This is the uniform of an Ortsgruppenleiter and the pay grade would concur with level of appointment.
Bob

I'm overwelmed with the feedback - thanks guys

@Johann: Thanks for warming comments as well as posting the tie picture - and it's definetly a match to mine. I'll dig the digicam out tomorrow try to make a matching photo

@Laurence: I'm sorry if I sounded a bit harsh - not my intention I kind a went probably because I'm a bit cranky about this group wich goes my nerves as I've never got such a unique and expensive group between my hands before - and most likely wont get a chance again for such. To me a dream come true if real, wich is why I hate to see the group fall appart...who wouldn't in such a situation of mine It seems that it at least is very controvercial, if not part dodgy wich would mean put together - hence I'm having a bit of a short fuse as the dream of mine seems to be very fragile.

@Klaushund/Bob: If good weather tomorrow I'll try to sneak the tunic outside for better photos - otherwise I'll do my best with the flash on indoor. I will also do my best to describe the metal of the insignia, though I'm not an expert on this. Sorry I'm a bit thick headed - Do You mean that the rank is a match/appropriate for the title "Oberbürgermeister" ...or?
If that's the case, it does indeed sounds very promissing for me as to what You write, but I better wait jumping from joy untill I've got the answers on the upcomming photos.


Cheers,
Carsten

Oberbürgermeister is simply the mayor of the town. These guys were almost always Ortsgruppenleiters as well,within the NSDAP.
So the rank goes with the title, yes.

An Ortsgruppenleiter could be the top five ranks listed within the Orts level. (see bottom 2 rows below)

(The "right' collar tab would be more useful than the left, can you picture that one as well?)

Hi

@Expand: Thank You for posting the rank chart. Lucky the photos of the right collar tab turned out to be the best I've made today - so I will post a bunch of photos of various details of this collar tab.

@Klaushund: I've had my magnifier and flashlight along to examin the collar tabs. To my big surprice I've missed something that might be of big importance. The left collar tab wich has "lost" the stiches on the upper left corner I had a closer look at. Inside below all the prongs of the insignia there is a paper RZM label wich is printed in light blue colour. Unfortunately I noticed that several hours later after I took the pictures today. I will try and make some shots of it tomorrow (too dark for that now - 7 PM o'clock) though it might be very difficult. If I don't succeed with the photos I hope I can make out what the details says atleast.

As for the construction of the metal insignia I am very convinced that they are made of aluminium. They seems to be semi hollow - though not the type of semi hollow as seen on combat badges - more square alike. I hope You can follow me on what I mean - if not please don't hesitate to ask me to explain better.

First up a photo of the tie for Johann...sorry I didn't had the time to dig out my matching gorget (of note - not a part of the group) to make the shot


Cheers,
Carsten

Following photos are various details of right collar tab only...might look a bit messy but I hope You all manage to get something out of the photos.

2nd

3rd

4th

5th

6th

7th

8th and last photo for today...I'm beat and going to hit the body shaped couch of mine for a few hours - I will pop in later on (along with a bottle of rootbeer and a box of Kleenex...just in case if any of the two are needed ) to see if You have come up with any interesting news. Once again thank You all for comming to the rescue

NO PROBLEMS WITH THOSE TABS. THIS IS THE SAME RANK I HAVE ON MY ORTSGRUPPENLEITER TUNIC.
BOB

Pheew...I'm releaved - for now that is! My girl friend was very kind to assist me taking photos this morning (she hates this stuff and normaly wont touch it ) and I succeeded getting one decent shot of the RZM label inside the left collar tab. I've also found out what the label says. Below the RZM logo it's printed in black "No. 381155" above that right to the RZM logo it's printed in light blue "M/4" and next to that "28" wich is made with a black stamp. I hope that will prove something one way or the other.


Cheers,
Carsten

Since I'm back to the left collar tab with the RZM label inside, I figured it wouldn't hurt posting the detailed photos of the left collar tab.

2nd

3rd

4th

5th

6th

7th

8th and last photo

Well that was it for the photos in this round. I would really appreciate if someone had photos of the belived fake/controvercial collar tabs as well as of the known genuine, and posted these on this thread to eliminate any doubts.

I know this probably sounds a bit insane as I were already told they were good, but I like to "wear belt and suspenders" as we say in Denmark when have to be double sure - especially in such cases like this were earlier most oppinions were negative.

Thank You in advance.


Cheers,
Carsten

Carsten, I certainly would be carefull not to do any more damage to that collar tab, in the name of proof! Treat it with tendar hands. Should you ever decide to sell that suitcase as a seperate piece, I'd buy it in a hot second! Congrats on your purchase.