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#183910 06/14/2008 05:07 PM
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I have been badgering someone I know to part with the most lovely Eickhorn full rohm with a lovely "blondie" grip. I have seen it and handled it and it is 100% I dont have any pics though.

It is really nice and all as it should be with a lovely Patina. It is one of those things you just want to buy even if you end up paying top dollar for it.

Anyhows what is a nice full rohm Eickhorn worth? If I can get it I will post some pictures of it.

#183911 06/14/2008 05:15 PM
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Forgot to mention it is an SA not an SS

#183912 06/14/2008 05:16 PM
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$5500 to $6000

Gailen David

#183913 06/14/2008 05:22 PM
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I didn't think an SS would have blonde grip.

Gailen David

#183914 06/14/2008 05:45 PM
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LOL Roll Eyes Ok I will take a kick for the thickest post of the day and will go and dye my hair blonde to match the handle!

Any other opinions on price?

#183915 06/14/2008 05:52 PM
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It all depends on condition but here are the prices that I've seen lately.

E $ 5000
E+ $ 5500
E++ $ 6000
E++/NM $ 6500
NM $ 7000

These are prices that I have accounter on major dealer's web sites for the last few months.

Mint............just give me a call. Big Grin

#183916 06/14/2008 05:58 PM
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Yes these are really nice!

100_2911.JPG (78.5 KB, 1989 downloads)
#183917 06/14/2008 05:59 PM
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#183918 06/14/2008 10:39 PM
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That is absolutely lovely

#183919 06/16/2008 05:13 AM
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That is a nice piece.

#183920 06/16/2008 01:34 PM
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An Eickhorn R�hm SA with a "blonde" grip??? That sounds most unusual to me...

Is it a large or a small makersmark and which one?

Is there a benchmark?

I can only suggest to post pictures before spending this amound of dollars.

Best greetings,

Herman


You never have enough HJ-knifes!
#183921 06/18/2008 10:34 AM
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Sorry another one I looked at with him was an eick the Full Rohm was EPS

tn_IMG_00861.jpg (29.81 KB, 1640 downloads)
#183922 06/18/2008 10:34 AM
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tn_IMG_00901.jpg (15.44 KB, 1586 downloads)
#183923 06/18/2008 10:35 AM
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#183924 06/18/2008 10:35 AM
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tn_IMG_00981.jpg (24.67 KB, 1481 downloads)
#183925 06/18/2008 10:36 AM
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tn_IMG_01001.jpg (22.58 KB, 1463 downloads)
#183926 06/18/2008 10:37 AM
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tn_IMG_01011.jpg (22.08 KB, 1431 downloads)
#183927 06/18/2008 10:46 AM
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I know these pictures are not the best as I took them on my camera phone. The blade has remains of what looks like old grease on it.

On the tang it has the number 5 on it and a latin or roman numeral V in a circle.

I am paying for this tonight so quick input appreciated.

#183928 06/18/2008 01:57 PM
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My Pack ground Rohm has a plain tang and the trademark is positioned 15 mm from the lower crossguard the dagger you show looks to have the trademark farther away from the crossguard
Is the hammerhead solid or void theres a good thread started by Houston Coates on Pack trademarks on Rohm daggers on this forum
Be careful I would hold off buying it until some of our Rohm experts have chimed in

#183929 06/18/2008 03:27 PM
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Ok I will not part with my cash just yet, I will however see if i can get some better pictures etc.

#183930 06/18/2008 03:36 PM
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My EP&S Rohm wont come apart (dont think it ever has been !! but agree with AJ on the
maker mark at 15mm from lower crossguard.
This is a favorite maker seemingly for the
spurious etch.Sharper pic please will be to your benefit. Wink

#183931 06/18/2008 04:21 PM
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mongobongo,

Are you certain that the grip is a 'blondie' or simply over cleaned/scrubbed?

Respectfully,

John

#183932 06/18/2008 07:16 PM
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Here are some better pics, I have it on approval for seven days to satisfy myself it is correct. The makers mark is 14MM from the crossguard.

tn_full_rohm_001.JPG (49.19 KB, 1301 downloads)
#183933 06/18/2008 07:17 PM
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#183934 06/18/2008 07:19 PM
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tn_full_rohm_003.JPG (51.63 KB, 1247 downloads)
#183935 06/18/2008 07:20 PM
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tn_full_rohm_006.JPG (50.66 KB, 1195 downloads)
#183936 06/18/2008 07:22 PM
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5

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#183937 06/18/2008 07:23 PM
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tn_full_rohm_011.JPG (50.51 KB, 1178 downloads)
#183938 06/18/2008 07:25 PM
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#183939 06/18/2008 07:26 PM
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#183940 06/18/2008 07:28 PM
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#183941 06/18/2008 07:30 PM
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#183942 06/18/2008 07:31 PM
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tn_full_rohm_019.JPG (35.16 KB, 693 downloads)
#183943 06/18/2008 07:37 PM
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The dedication, moto and makers mark all have the same burnishing. The pictures dont really pick it up because of the light but I can take some more if needed.

#183944 06/18/2008 07:37 PM
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Well, It's hard with images to really make an opinion. On this blade, I would have to examine it more closely before making a decision, if you get my drift.

Gailen David

#183945 06/18/2008 07:47 PM
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I really think some better pictures are needed. For the others to make an opinion.

#183946 06/18/2008 08:03 PM
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Cheers here are more pictures in different light.

tn_rohm_2_001.JPG (24.88 KB, 664 downloads)
#183947 06/18/2008 08:05 PM
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tn_rohm_2_002.JPG (22.75 KB, 649 downloads)
#183948 06/18/2008 08:06 PM
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#183949 06/18/2008 08:07 PM
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The grip looks typical Pack light brown
and fittings same.Got my upper guard off with same caster marking.Can,t get the rest off
and wont try.But the clincher is the etch.
Like Gailen says,I think you should try
pics square on to the etch and Pack mark
for a better appreciation.Sorry to bug you but
would be worth it for broader opinion.JMO.
Seiler (Yank in UK) Wink

#183950 06/18/2008 08:07 PM
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tn_rohm_2_004.JPG (27.19 KB, 619 downloads)
#183951 06/18/2008 08:09 PM
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tn_rohm_2_005.JPG (32.37 KB, 617 downloads)
#183952 06/18/2008 08:09 PM
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Have one of those cup cakes to go with my coffee!!!
Seiler Big Grin

#183953 06/18/2008 08:09 PM
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tn_rohm_2_006.JPG (32.26 KB, 602 downloads)
#183954 06/18/2008 08:11 PM
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tn_rohm_2_007.JPG (30.97 KB, 598 downloads)
#183955 06/18/2008 08:11 PM
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#183956 06/18/2008 08:13 PM
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#183957 06/18/2008 08:19 PM
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Very strong etch but looks fine by me and both sides seem to match in depth and color.
I think you have a good one that looks in great condition.JMO.
Thanks for all pics.
Seiler (Yank in UK) Wink

#183958 06/18/2008 08:32 PM
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I hope those are better, apparantly over the years it has changed hands a few times in collecting circles in the UK, I am buying it privately. Quite a few of the dealers have inspected it first hand and said it is OK apparantly Harvey gave it the thumbs up as well a few years ago, but I cant ask him now!. The owner seems 100% genuine and on the level I spoke to one of this daggers previous owners on the phone tonight who also said it is 100% right.

But me being a cynical git who trusts no one thought I would let a lot more cynical gits have a look at it Smile

#183959 06/18/2008 08:44 PM
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Well if Harv was OK with it,its OK.
He was seldom wrong.
Seiler (Yank in UK)

#183960 06/18/2008 09:21 PM
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Mongo,

The dagger is a fine, typical Pack SA with a beautyful red grip.

For the writing of the inscription, I would ask Gailen and/or Pat if it is correct.

Personaly I have never seen such a deep R�hm inscription. If the makersmark would be as deep, would it still be readable? Can you image if this blade would have the inscription ground: what would have been left of the blade?

One other thing: the blade appears to be stronly cleaned around the inscription, I can see no crossgrain (could be the pictures) only many scratches... but the inscription has kept all of its darkness?

These are just a few thoughs.. not to say this dagger is no good. But it is at least a very uncommon full R�hm...

Best greetings,

Herman


You never have enough HJ-knifes!
#183961 06/18/2008 09:54 PM
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I hate getting envolved with this stuff, by that I mean authenticating on line. But here is my two cents worth. Just remember my opinion is no better then anyone elses.

I do not like the inscription. There are a lot of differences between this and originals by this maker. I'll put it this way. if the piece were offered to me I would not be interested.

Gailen David

#183962 06/18/2008 10:02 PM
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Thanks for that, I have just measured the iscription front and rear where possible with a micrometer and they both appear to be 0.1 MM deep and are both the same to the touch. Out of my 30 SAs I do have several of the earlier ones that tend to be a bit deeper.

The runner mark scratches,do run over parts of the dedication front and rear but only the far edges. Both inscriptions are deep but you can see where some burnishing has worn off in a few places with a magnifying glass outside of the centre band.

#183963 06/18/2008 10:06 PM
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Gailen please can you post some pictures as an example

#183964 06/18/2008 10:15 PM
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Sorry, no I can't. But you should be able to compare the inscription to other original examples posted. There are lot of style differences. You should easily spot these differences when you compare to some that are shown. Rememeber this a facsimle and not open major differences. There are some who disagree.

Gailen

#183965 06/18/2008 10:16 PM
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Cross grain evident, its the camera/light. Same as the burnishing it comes and goes depending on the angle and the light. Not a lot I can do about that but believe me its nice and even I am happy with that.

#183966 06/18/2008 10:19 PM
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If your happy we're happy. That's all that counts. Congradulations.

Gailen David

#183967 06/19/2008 12:19 AM
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Mongo,

You should give serious consideration to what Gailen David is saying.

He is the only person I trust 100% as concerns these inscriptions. That is my 2p worth.

Dave

#183968 06/19/2008 03:11 AM
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Amen brother, Amen......

Gailen is the premier and final word on this subject.

#183969 06/19/2008 04:34 AM
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I also would agree with Gailen...

Mark Roll Eyes

#183970 06/19/2008 07:12 AM
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The problem is he is not here to hold it in his hand. I have looked and looked at the inscription and cant find anything wrong with it.

So can someome please point out what differences before a good piece potentially gets junked.

#183971 06/19/2008 07:51 AM
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last pics 1

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#183980 06/19/2008 08:02 AM
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As you can see the dedication on the front has bairly been scratched out by the runner marks as well. Both dedications are reasonably deep but consistent with each other.

But you can see areas (last 5) bottom of the second word where deeper runner marks have removed some of the burnishing.

#183981 06/19/2008 10:13 AM
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The KISS of Death??? Frown
For the money they fetch,better to
pass and wait for another than the doubt.
Seiler (Yank in UK) Frown Confused

#183982 06/19/2008 11:15 AM
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Im gonna get a "hands on opinion" on it from a major collector I know well.

#183983 06/19/2008 01:10 PM
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lets look on the bright side, it is entirerly possible yours is real and all the others I've seen are not. Who knows?

Gailen David

#183984 06/19/2008 02:08 PM
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Now THAT is funny! Big Grin

#183985 06/19/2008 03:47 PM
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I've been waiting for better photos of the dedication before commenting. But I quess this is the best we are going to get so here goes...
I've never seen one like that and if I did I would not want it in my collection.
I have doubts on the originality of the dedication and if original the blade has been polished to a "non-collection" grade IMO.

And if Gailen doesn't like it...that's all you need to know and not worry about it..just send it back. Wink

-serge-

#183986 06/19/2008 04:07 PM
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I am really fed up now, people e-mail me telling me that certain people are wrong and not to listen to them, saying that unless they own it nothing is ever right. Others then jump on the wagon and before you know it you have something ****e!!.

People who have checked it here in the UK say it is right, others phone me to tell me its wrong.

I really dont know any more. Who the hell knows for sure??? God only knows now..

I am getting so sick of this hobby I am seriously thinking about selling everything I own and buying "star wars" figures or something else like that.

Whatever this piece is right, wrong, or indifferent it is probably the end of my collecting WW2 daggers. As things are at the moment I will never buy another piece and probably sell all the ones I have.

I sickens me to get in between such *****ing on and off the net.

#183987 06/19/2008 04:21 PM
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The only way to avoid this is not put anything on the forum for people to see and then ask for an opinion. There is always going to be someone who does not like what your showing. You live in England, so show it to local knowledgeable collector/dealers over there and form your own opinon. You've got some good guys over there.

Just remember you asked for opinions.

Gailen David

#183988 06/19/2008 04:50 PM
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That inscription does seem to be abnormally, "thick", but the rest of the dagger seems to have the correct EP&S attributes for a Rohm

Is it possible that it is real and somebody for some reason has gone over the etch again or does that just sound ridiculous?

#183989 06/19/2008 04:55 PM
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Mongo
Dont get disheartened , take the opinions offered and make your own mind up,ive only been collecting a short time, but realise that you must listen to people who have been collecting for a long time, if YOU like it have it, all the best steve

#183990 06/19/2008 04:55 PM
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Not the best photo in the world with my shaky hands but here's a section of my partial EP&S Rohm for comparison...

IMG_0386.JPG (35.52 KB, 645 downloads)
#183991 06/19/2008 06:42 PM
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C'mon, mate, one questionable dagger and quitting the hobby for 'star wars figurines'? Where is your gameness? Go ahead, this should be the right hobby for you. Easy come, easy go.

#183992 06/19/2008 08:04 PM
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Mongo, last year I asked expert opinion on a dagger, got the OK & subsequently got burned in a big way. Unfortunately I didn`t find out for many months! I felt like that was the end for me at that time. I cooled off and didn`t do anything hasty. Now I still enjoy the hobby but I stick to what I know. I think that any collector who is honest will admit they have made mistakes & you have to roll with the punches or get out. If in doubt about any piece then best to stay away from it than lose big money on the say so of others.


War is when your government tells you who the enemy is.
Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself.
#183993 06/20/2008 02:40 PM
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Was the OP not given an inspection period?

If there is doubt, why not return it, and move forward instead of the drastic step of selling off his collection and leaving the hobby? Confused

Surely EP & S are one of the more common makers of Rohms, and a more 'textbook' example can be found if one is desired..

#183994 06/20/2008 03:07 PM
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Kursk if you look in the For Sale forum you will see that Mongo has sold most of his daggers in less than a day a fantastic result but hopefully one he wont regret
He thought he had a 7 day inspection period but when he tried to return the Rohm the seller reneged on the return policy prompting Mongo into becoming one of the most successful vendor of TR daggers ever seen bet some of the big boys dont shift that volume or value in under a day

#183995 06/20/2008 03:16 PM
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I think dealers who do NOT honor their published guarantee's should be named so we know who they are. It's a "short" list but includes a well known few guys.

Mark Mad

#183996 06/20/2008 03:17 PM
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Whats that tell you on the return policy?

Gailen David

#183997 06/20/2008 03:37 PM
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I agree, that particular dealer should be NAMED, for the good of collecting community.

#183998 06/20/2008 03:50 PM
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I thought this forum was about helping people to not make mistakes, if naming a dealer does that, so be it.

Nolan


The older I get the better I was!
#183999 06/20/2008 04:53 PM
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I never said it was a dealer this is what happened.

A week or two ago someone e-mailed then called me asking for two scabbard screws and a pommel nut for an SA. I had a long chat with him on the phone and he seemed nice enough, lived fairly local and seemed really interested in an opinion in an SS he was buying supposidly for his father.

He calls me again to say that he is in a wheel chair and asks if I could pop out to see him as travelling was a problem. I went round there and sure enough he was clearly disabled and we sat at a table in his dining room. He shows me some piece of crap SS dagger that has a real blade and one real crossguard. He said he was about to buy it for �1,000 and asked me what if anything was wrong with it. I explained it was more repro than real and told him not to buy it.

He said he had an NSKK that I could look at that he had traded some stuff for some years before. I took it off the wal and it was an early ground Rohm (maybe) in a vertical hanger The handle was right, the crossguards were later ones and the scabbard was later. I told him and he seemed very surprised.

We chatted a bit more I gave him the scabbard screws and pomel nut he needed for free and he asked if I could hang the NSKK back on the wall. As he pointed to where it hung up I noticed an SS in a cupboard with a bag. He said oh you can look at that and I took it out the case. Now as you know I have quite a few SS daggers and there was nothing wrong with it. He said take it apart and have a look if you like. The pomel nut was hand tight I took it to bits and all looked good, It was a fully ground rohm and fine. We talked about it for a bit longer and he said I have another nice one for you to look at before you go. He told me where it was and I grabbed it, it was the Pack full Rohm.

I took it out the scabbard and remarked how nice it was. He explained that with changes in UK gun laws he had traded two something or others for it that the guy had sold for �4400. He said it was not for sale but "you never know". Before I left he asked if he could buy an old SA off me to try and put early fittings on the ground rohm he had.

I said if I was passing I would pop in and let him have a look at it although I was not sure if I wanted to break it or sell it as it was untidy but honest.

A week later I get a call telling me that he knows someone who bought an SS Full rohm from the US a few years back that was selling it for �8,500. I explained that I might be interested in it but would need provinence and a good second opinion before I would go and part with that kind of money. He said that was fine as it was 100%. Also asked me if he could look a that salty SA I had for bits and said how he enjoyed meeting me last time.

I popped round there with the SA and a few nice other bits to just show him as he was interested in what certain daggers supposidly looked like. He also said that over the years quite a few people had been trying to get the full rohm off of him. He also said that he was now wanting another SS sword as there were three or four there. He then said he would be prepaired to sell the full rohm and Eick SS for the right money for the sword. We discussed it and I said provided I could get the full rohm checked out I was happy paying �5200 for the pair plus two SA daggers he wanted.

He asked me if I could use the two SA daggers parts to make his parts SS and his ground part rohm more original for him as he was hoffified to hear from me that they were wrong. So I agreed on the understanding that he knew they would just still be parts daggers and would not be correct etc. He told me he would just hang them back on the wall to replace the two I would buy from him. I took his two daggers home stripped these two SAs down and it took me thirteen hours to make as good a job as possible on them.

I took some pics of that full rohm on my mobile that night and posted them here on the forum. A few people made comments and someone e-mailed me to tell me it was right and nice etc. Still being scepticle I told him I was not interested in paying for it until I had it verified and checked out. He told me I could have seven days to do that, but as he does not know where I live he would need the money up front. Clearly being severely disabled the guy was not going anywhere and to be honest I trusted him. I asked for his bank details and he told me that cash would be preferable as the chap he was buying the SS sword from wanted cash providing I was happy.

I was a bit unhappy about that so he said speak to "kevin" he dials the phone and puts it on speaker. The voice on the end of the phone told me he used to own the full rohm, not being funny I must be silly not to know it was right. I said a few people on a forum I use had a few reservations but the pics were bad. He told me had a few people look at it when he owned it including Harvy and said it was great. He then asked what forum and laughed saying most of them on there are "armchair collectors and know nothing" or something similar. After a bit more of the same I handed the money over and took the two daggers confirming the seven day thing, and gave him his two repaired ones that he was really pleased with. After a few comments on here I asked for my money back, he told me he had spent it the next day.

I have been on the phone several times asking for my money back and he point blank refuses. He says today that It is clearly my fault and I have no proof its wrong etc etc. I said I would take him to court, he said im disabled you know that I am not even going to be able to get there..

I said I would take it back to him and he could give me two SS swords he has until he gets my money back and he refused then saying its my fault etc etc and that I ruined his two daggers by repairing them.

I tell him bluntly that I am the victim here, we agreed on a 7 day period. I gave him �5200 plus two SAs and spent 13 hours working on his others for him.

IMO I have been targeted, he is a front man that it will proove difficult to get into court. That being said out of principal I will just keep going with it even if I loose because the moneys a big hit but the principal is the stab to the heart.

Keep your eyes out for an RZM SS with a nice blade but with N/S scabbard fittings and X/Gs. It has the Gau mark OST on the X/G. Also a ground partial Rohm from anyone in England.

#184000 06/20/2008 05:17 PM
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That's terrible! I really feel for you. These type of crooks are everywhere these days. You just don't know who to trust? If you keep collecting in time your gains will far exceed your loses. This is a story I have heard many times. We lose some really good guys over this type of crap.

Gailen David

#184001 06/20/2008 05:17 PM
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Sad tale..
Now..here is what i would do if i were you..
Ring up a reputable soliciter, get an opinion.Keep that in your back pocket.A first time consult should not cost you a thing, and will be cheap insurance.

Second, i would contact Gailen David, and offer to pay him to have it inspected in hand so that the authenticity can be determined yes or no.Armed with this information, you can set a course of action.

If it is bad, you can produce informed evidence in small claims court.

That is the civil way..in my old days, i would have marched right over and relieved the gent of goods with equiv. value..

This man had no intention of honouring any agreement and i would say all bets are off..do whatever you feel you have to do (within legal boundaries..) to recoup your losses..

#184002 06/20/2008 05:59 PM
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Sorry to see this happen to you Mongo. Frown

It does sound like you were targeted. A slick con-job with a "cripple" used as a front..perhaps.

As Gailen said we have seen this before. Collectors have always been targeted by the swindlers be it Art, Antiques or anything of value.

I have seen the "For Sale" section. Most of the
fine daggers you have bought recently and shown on this forum. I may be wrong but it appears that you may have lost money also on the sale in the haste of getting it all behind you.
I did that exact same thing back in the 1970's.

Hope you get some satisfaction from the legal system. At least make them hire a lawyer!

Best of Luck.
-serge-

#184003 06/20/2008 06:05 PM
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I hate to say it but I smelled a rat in the first two paragraphs of your post! To bad their's no more Ty Cobb!

#184004 06/20/2008 09:17 PM
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Thanks guys, for me the hardest part of all of this was telling my wife. Being so keen on this stuff I took her out to dinner the other night to explain what I wanted to spend money on after buying 2 SSs just last week.

After all this happened more than anything I feel really guilty for letting her down as its really our money and not mine if you know what I mean. She is so good she let me do it and was pleased for me. I now feel so bad I am gonna put every penny back.. so I have been on a big sell off.

#184005 06/20/2008 10:20 PM
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That is very honerable of you. I really do understand. Back in the sixties we had no forum and most of the times and no one to go to for help. We made lots of mistakes. I guess it was a case of paying for your education back then. I remember quite few $3000 mistakes, this is 40 some years ago, that's like $7500 now and was working for $175 a week. I told my wife I was going to get out and she asked me did I love collecting this stuff and also did I think I could pick up enough knowledge in order for us not to go broke? I answered yes, I do, and I can to the questions. It's a tough road. It takes time and usually some sacrifices.

Gailen David

#184006 06/21/2008 11:49 AM
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I am really sorry for what happened to you, Mongo. Too bad, you made the very drastic decision to quit this great hobby. But if that improves the relationship with your woman, than it is understandable...


My advice to collectors is always:

- Start in the safer area's of the hobby (for example standard SA's) and build up experience before moving to the more exotic stuff (like R�hm's)

- Spend only your own cash on your hobby and just the money that you will not need for at least the coming 10 years (same rule as for investments in stock!)

- Never let a seller put pressure on you and if you have the slightest doubt than don't buy!

- Ask as much (expert) advice as you can, like Gailen said: we are so spoiled thanks to forums like this one! Personally, I am only collection since the Forum era and honestly, I would not have dared starting without it!

Best greetings,

Herman


You never have enough HJ-knifes!
#184007 06/21/2008 03:47 PM
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The forum is great but don't forget the books. Careful study of the photos in existing books would probably have prevented this theft.


MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
#184008 06/21/2008 04:22 PM
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I'm quite sorry to hear of your stories with this fellow. I don't know if you were targeted or it was a crime of opportunity with you being the conveinent patsy this time around I'm sorry to say. You're probably not the first person he's taken & quite likely not the last.

I guess the only way you would have had a little more to work with would have been some sort of receipt stating the 7 day return policy.
Wheelchair of not, his a55 needs to be taken to court. If he can't get there, it's his problem & no skin off your nose. With a judgment, you could put a lien on his house, car, assets, etc. While this might turn out to be a fruitless endeavor, it's something I urge you to consider as he needs to be held accountable for his actions, even if it's only to spend money on a lawyer.

Besides the civil court route seeking restitution, don't lose sight that this was a crime. What happened to you is, IMO, an out & out theft only marginally different that if he had picked your pocket on the way home from the bank. You should also speak with the local cops to see if they can rattle his cage. You may even be able to articulate the complaint well enough for the cops to actually arrest this turd.

I've seen your recent sale & watched with horror. Countless days of eagerness & the joy of so many treasures you found. I know they will go to good homes but I'm sad this incident has caused you to sell off stuff in bulk. I've bought the occasional bad piece (as have most of us). It disgusted me but only strengthened my resolve to be able to vet the good from the bad. Your story is also the main reason I have never purchased a Rohm piece thus far. I do wish you luck & hope you'll be back someday, maybe poorer but definitely wiser for the experience.


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#184009 06/21/2008 05:53 PM
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Thanks for your post, we have all been done at least a few times. The first ever SA I bought was a repro. When I found out I was disapointed but by that time it actually got me collecting. Over the last 8-10 years of collecting I have ended up with a few minor bad bits but nothing that was so expensive or painful to deal with.

My first step is professional written verification of the Rohm to establish just what it is. After that I will be instructing Lawyers, he might be phyically disabled but he is not mentally retarded so he knew what he was doing.

Even loosing more money on this with legal costs would give me some element of satisfaction. If he thinks twice about it next time because I just wont give up on him legally then that will be reward enough.

I have enjoyed buying some really nice stuff of late and this just ruined it for me as it was a hell of a knock. Justice will be served by the book using every legal way possible. Smile

#184010 06/21/2008 08:02 PM
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Good on you mongo..

#184011 06/22/2008 10:02 PM
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No wonder this guy's in a wheelchair.

DTS

#184012 06/24/2008 01:11 PM
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Hey Mongo

did you not go round to the man and get your money back if it were me i would have gone round and kicked the door in and taken the value in what ever was there to take and sold it on before being arrested

Panzer

#184013 06/24/2008 01:30 PM
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Great idea, why didn't I think of that?!

Gailen David

#184014 06/24/2008 03:19 PM
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I think of the old saying, and it goes for most collecting not just TR is you have to be able to walk before you can Run!!! i see it all the time and its allways the guys with all the cash

i feel sorry for you have you been around to pay him a visit

#184015 06/25/2008 08:43 PM
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Can anyone recommend anyone in the UK I can send/take this to for a written apraisal. Who is now the leading authority over here?. I dont mind paying but will need it in writing.

Sending it to the USA is an option but a bit risky just in case it gets lost or stolen in customs etc.

Thanks

#184016 06/26/2008 06:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mongobongo:
Can anyone recommend anyone in the UK I can send/take this to for a written apraisal. Who is now the leading authority over here?. I dont mind paying but will need it in writing.

Sending it to the USA is an option but a bit risky just in case it gets lost or stolen in customs etc.

Hi Martin What Higher authority is there than the combined knowlege of this forum.If you print out the findings of this thread it will have more legal weight than one mans written appraisal. Trading standards will be interested in the case they might already have a file on this operator! Regards Bunnter p.s Bill Ellison Verified my Boker SS Rhom some years ago.

Thanks

#184017 06/26/2008 07:31 PM
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Bill knows his SS daggers.

Gailen

#184018 06/26/2008 08:37 PM
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Bunter I need someone to do it in hand, ??

#184019 06/26/2008 08:49 PM
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Both guys are in England. I don't think anyones coming to your door to do it.

#184020 06/26/2008 10:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mongobongo:
Can anyone recommend anyone in the UK I can send/take this to for a written apraisal. Who is now the leading authority over here?. I dont mind paying but will need it in writing.

Sending it to the USA is an option but a bit risky just in case it gets lost or stolen in customs etc.

Thanks


Fred Stephens: [email protected]

#184021 06/27/2008 06:36 PM
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Thanks for that, I have his book on reproductions as well. Really good read by all accounts!

#184022 06/27/2008 07:45 PM
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With Fred's many decade background and authorship of the "Reproduction? Recognition!", it should stand up in any court as an "authority".
Besides he's always willing to help collectors.
A true gentelman.

-serge-

#184023 07/02/2008 05:21 AM
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Martin,
Fred Stephens is the man you need to talk to,if you need his telephone number let me know.
Regards
Steve

#184024 07/09/2008 01:05 AM
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Hey Guys,

I have been watching this thread with a great deal of interest and just wanted to make a few observations. At the beginning of the thread there was a flood of opinions that the dagger in question was definately good, beautiful, Proper, and undoubtedly Original. To this point, I have seen NO-ONE actually come out and say the dagger is bad, Not one! Gailen DID say he didn't like certain things about it, but he also said he MIGHT be Wrong. However tongue in Cheek. The Court thing is going to be a waste of time, as I see it, because for Every 5 guys you get to say it is wrong there will be 5 guys available to say it is Right! We ALL KNOW THAT is a FACT. As to the guy who sold it to you, He is a SKUNK for sure! For not honoring his 7 day agreement. But, He also may be genuinely convinced that the item is good.

I am very curious, Mongo, that you were so quick to accept the few dissenters that insinuated, not said outright, that the dagger is bad! especiall to the point that you are selling off all your stuff. That is a Total Shame and I do not think that, Even now, you have really thought out any of your actions. I guess it is just the difference between a pessimist and an optimist! Doesn't ANYONE ELSE see this??????

Regards,

Railgun 88

#184025 07/09/2008 10:49 AM
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I see what your saying Railgun.
It's unfortunate that Mongo couldn't get his money back but that is not that RARE of an occurance. Anyone who has been in this hobby a while will have some items he got "stuck" with for various reasons.
So what does one do?
You step back take a breather and don't do anything hasty that you might regret later. Don't let your emotions of the moment get the better of you.
Stick the beast in the back of the bottom drawer and move forward.
It is part of this hobby that we will all encounter some day.

-serge-

#184026 07/09/2008 01:47 PM
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I cant really comment further on this at the moment.. sorry

#184027 07/09/2008 03:42 PM
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Fair Enough, Mongo! Confused But, I would strongly suggest you take no further action at the moment and send the Dagger to someone for a "Hands on" Opinion! Relax and see where the chips fall! As Serge said, we have all been there and can totally relate to what you are feeling. Oh, and by the way, if you really decide to change your collecting interests, I have a ton of Star Trek Collectables to get you started! Big Grin

#184028 07/09/2008 04:47 PM
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rest assured I am taking all the appropriate steps in the right order.

Do you know him or this dagger by chance?

Just curious, or do you think it is right?

#184029 07/09/2008 05:43 PM
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Why dont we leave it alone guy,s and let
events unfold.I,m sure Mongo is doing what he must do for closure.I,m sure he will let us know what transpires in due course....
IMO
Seiler (Yank in UK)

#184030 07/09/2008 06:00 PM
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I totally agree.

Gailen David

#184031 07/09/2008 06:09 PM
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yes it would be nice to see a positive outcome for mongo,

#184032 07/10/2008 07:30 PM
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can there still be a positive outcome for mongo ?

1. the dagger is fake and the whole "court circus" starts.

2. the dagger is good ,and Mongo sold a big part of his collection for no reason at all.

I sencerely hope it's option 2.(since the lost daggers can be rebought).

Still I do have fate that this dagger could be ok.
I must say if you read the story then this looks to be a cunning plan, set to target Mongo.
But what if the seller is really thinking (knowing) that it's real.

Would you be as a (private) seller really be intrested to rebuy the dagger , if you could use the cash , or allready has spend it on other pieces?
It sounds harsh but I do not think so.
(people could call you dishonest , but are you a fraud if the item is real?)

This story may not give you a good feeling, but does not implement it is fake neither.

let's cross fingers and hope Stephen gives Mongo a thumbs up.


"Nothing is new, only forgotten" Tyla
#184033 07/10/2008 09:40 PM
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What??

Gailen

#184034 07/10/2008 09:57 PM
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why ? what??


"Nothing is new, only forgotten" Tyla
#184035 07/10/2008 10:16 PM
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I'm a little slow and did not get what you were trying to say. It must be just me.

Gailen

#184036 07/10/2008 10:24 PM
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Joe: I have a question for you. If a tree falls on a dagger in the forest and no one is there, whose fault is it the dagger or the tree? Also what kind of a 65 Mustang do you have?

Gailen

#184037 07/10/2008 10:44 PM
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depends if the tree has the right of way.

not? Confused


65 convy
66 coupe


"Nothing is new, only forgotten" Tyla
#184038 07/10/2008 10:56 PM
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Can we beat this dead horse any longer Confused

#184039 07/10/2008 11:09 PM
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Joe: I use to be a judge over here years ago on Mustangs. Which engines? A, c, K. or T?

Gailen

#184040 07/10/2008 11:14 PM
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Not only have we beat the horse to death but then we performed a lobodimy!

Gailen

#184041 07/10/2008 11:17 PM
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well gailen,
sorry but english is not my mother tongue, anyway i will give it a shot.
I try toexplain it slooooooowly.

there we goooooooooo :
First option (dagger is fake and Mongo has to go to court to get a refund).
If unlucky this can take years and loads of cash (my brother is a lawyer and he told me stories that give you the creeps.)
if there's isn't a decent sales-contract with the money back garantee on paper then I'm afraid it's Mongo's word against the crooks word. Not the best start of a trial.
Other problem : as mentioned by Railgun88 , which authority will be able to say for 100% sure that it's fake or real?

see a post of mine on german combat awards, on a very strange radio observer badge.
In the beginning almost everybody think it's fake and at the end of the post they think it's an original badge with production error. Human errors occur every day. Nobody can tell 100% for sure if a piece is real/fake.


Some remarks on option2 :

OK the seller didn't keep his word, that's true but does this mean that the dagger is fake.
example : I sold a DLV dagger (in used condition) , sold it with "not original money back" , buyer had buyer's remourse and wanted to send it back because it was fake (he had it checked by Detlev Niemann) . I posted pics on this forum (post still might be somewhere around)and we all agreed that is was 100% real but in used condition (which he was aware off, since I took more the 20 pics of the dagger ).
So I did not refunded the money, nevertheless the expert Niemann said is was fake, we all believed that it was textbook. Does this make me dishonest?


What worries me the most is that everybody is allready jumping to conclusions, while only few have seen the dagger in real.
Gailen, from what i have read, you might be one of the few to be in a respectable position to comment the dagger, but IMO most of the other are just jumping on the wagon.
How many of the guys that replied actually own a full rohm Eickhorn to compare it with ?

So isn't this a bit of mass hysteria ?
If one thinks it's bad we all go saying it's bad.

funny thing, just sold a Para badge to a Dutch
guy today. He replied that he is very eager for the badge to arrive since he sold a good badge a year ago after the badge was slashed on the whermacht awards forum. After a month or so he did find out it's was real, but too late since he resold it.
I guess we all know stories like this aswell.

So my point was, the keep an open mind, there might still be a positive side to the story.
But I guess some see a half empty glass, some half full.

And please do not misunderstand me , this must be a sh*tty situation to be in , one i rather wouldn't be in.
But our negative feedback doesn't really help Mongo neither.

hope this is a bit clearer


"Nothing is new, only forgotten" Tyla
#184042 07/10/2008 11:22 PM
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Yes, I understand. Really the bottom line is this guy is going to get screwed one way or the other.
Sorry, I didin't notice you were from Belgium. My apoligies.

Gailen

#184043 07/10/2008 11:23 PM
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Gailen,

the "66" is a "C" code.
the 65 convertible is only a "T" code.
(but slightly tuned and sprint options)

i'm just an underpaid air traffic controller spending too much money on silly toys.


"Nothing is new, only forgotten" Tyla
#184044 07/10/2008 11:24 PM
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most likely
but sometimes you have to believe in miracles.


"Nothing is new, only forgotten" Tyla
#184045 07/10/2008 11:31 PM
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damn, just noticed that there are some typos (typing erros) in my replies, making it indead a bit hard to read (fate= faith , ....)
my humble apologies.
Frown


"Nothing is new, only forgotten" Tyla
#184046 07/10/2008 11:33 PM
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The "T" code is a nice engine to have with gas prices. I use to build Mustangs for fun many years ago.I probably owned around fourty of them. Had a 65 "K" coupe I really loved. I now show a 1963 Impala SS 409/425hp.

Gailen

#184047 07/10/2008 11:40 PM
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No big deal, you did better then I could do in a second language. In fact, there wouldn't have been a post.
Gailen

#184048 07/10/2008 11:50 PM
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Gas is still cheaper then beer.
And my mpg (miles per gallon) isn't as high as the mustang. Big Grin
conclusion: it is still cheaper driving the stang then running.

#184049 07/10/2008 11:53 PM
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The 409 gets five to seven mpg. But you do get were your going fast.

Gailen

#184050 07/11/2008 12:14 AM
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quote:
The 409 gets five to seven mpg. But you do get were your going fast.
LOL Cool

BTW Mongo if you ever need some advice on vintage star wars toys give me a call.
I have plenty !

German military is way too complex , star wars toys are easy, those I can really tell if they are fake or not. (some even only by the smell).

IMG_0072-1000.jpg (71.73 KB, 426 downloads)
#184051 07/11/2008 01:09 AM
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Hey Gailen,

I don't know the answer to your tree question, BUT, I do have part of the tree and the dagger you referred too!! Razz Wink



Roll Eyes

#184052 07/11/2008 04:00 AM
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Railgun,
Sorry....I believe I recall seeing those circa 1968..it's a "At-wood" fake. Big Grin

-serge-

#184053 07/11/2008 08:46 AM
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Please let this be THE LAST WORD...
"joemustang65" the dagger in question is a PACK.
Read the thread before starting the events ALL OVER...Let it be.
JMO
Seiler (Yank in UK) Frown

#184054 07/18/2008 02:24 PM
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Ok the verdict is in and is follows

It is an original dagger that has been re etched. 100% confirmed now by three people hands on and backed up in writing.

I am pleased in a way as now I can focus on the legal action I am taking on the T*** that bumped me on it.

I really really dont care what it costs, I just think the guy needs a lesson in being honest!. I am about to teach him that the hard way, costs, interest, charges for the reports, expensis etc etc. Now I own a reasonable sized company and have Lawyers on retainer for my business work.

Monday I get them to get ball rolling on him. if he does not have the money I will take a Judgement then follow up with a charge on his property and Baliffs. As far as I am concerned they can take everything except his wheel chair, I have no sympathy for him. This also now puts me in a position to go to the Police as well!.

I really will push this thing to its conclusion and ultimate satisfaction.

Thanks to everyone that has helped with this! and I hope me airing this out in public helps others not to fall for the same scam.

#184055 07/18/2008 04:05 PM
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Hi,
Glad its done.In talking with FS it was the suspected result.Take him now for a bath (The courthouse bath that is!!)
There is a guy doing up daggers in UK NOW and passing them thru several Dealers who KNOW what they are handling and from whom.He has been at it for a long time.
Time for him to be exposed.His initials are similar to a well known fast food chain..... Wink
Good luck
Seiler "(Yank in UK)

#184056 07/18/2008 04:32 PM
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Racked my brian and can't come up with the name.

Gailen

#184057 07/18/2008 04:42 PM
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Does "BK" Ring any bells for anyone? Confused Wink

#184058 07/18/2008 06:03 PM
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OK. Try K*C...
Seiler (Yank in UK) Big Grin Big Grin

#184059 07/18/2008 06:47 PM
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Yes, I think I know that one. Smile


Gailen

#184060 07/20/2008 01:56 PM
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what do you mean with an original dagger re-etched ?
so a original rohm re-etched or just a plain dagger?


"Nothing is new, only forgotten" Tyla
#184061 07/20/2008 02:06 PM
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Waiting for the full details but I think it was a ground pack that had a new rohm inscription faked onto it to increase the value/collectability.

#184062 07/20/2008 03:54 PM
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Good for you, I hope this gets a good airing & it may let some of the other scum bags who like to rip people off know that they just may not get away with it.

So am I looking for a bad guy called MacDonald?

Burger King? KFC? Now i`m confused.

If there is scrote pumping out dodgy stuff why not just name the SOB? Why the cryptic references?


War is when your government tells you who the enemy is.
Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself.
#184063 07/20/2008 05:39 PM
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I still have no idea who they are talking about???. Someone chuck me a bone here..

#184064 07/20/2008 05:44 PM
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Landser,Sent you a mail.Did you get it??
Seiler Yank in UK) Frown

#184065 07/20/2008 05:57 PM
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Thanks Seiler Wink


War is when your government tells you who the enemy is.
Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself.
#184066 08/13/2008 05:20 PM
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Gave the go ahead to issue proceedings today! so we should be good to go for a court date real soon. I am really looking forward to it, time that justice + interest + expenses + costs gets served.

#184067 08/13/2008 05:29 PM
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That's great! We wish you good luck.

Gailen David

#184068 08/23/2008 07:34 PM
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Mongo-

I'm very sorry about your loss and selling your collection. I could not imagine taking a hit like that!

Please keep this thread updated and good luck on your pursuit!
Brian


Thanks,
Brian

Always looking for Troop Signed WW2 Flags!
#184069 10/13/2008 05:55 PM
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Just an update, this has now been passed to a senior Lawyer within the company. He has written another letter to the chap. He called and asked for an extension to instruct a Lawyer of his own.

We are granting him a week (just in case his Lawyer can talk some sense into him). Then we will be pressing for a hearing date.

I am pleased that if nothing else he can start running some costs up now!.

#184070 10/13/2008 06:08 PM
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good work , I hope you get what you want !


"Nothing is new, only forgotten" Tyla
#184071 10/14/2008 05:30 AM
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glad to hear it. keep up the fight!


Thanks,
Brian

Always looking for Troop Signed WW2 Flags!
#184072 12/06/2008 10:30 PM
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Just an update on the legal position, he has now got a lawyer to write to mine. Basically it says he is disabled, he has no money, he never offered a seven day return period and also that I had taken it away prior to paying for it.

Cut a long story short, just makes me more determined to take this all the way. Thing is he admitted to another lawyer of mine he had given me 7 days to return it but he had "spent the money the next day" also I have it on a text message and posted it on here at the time. So when it goes to court hes going to look like the crook he is. Eek

Should have him in court by the end of Jan so will keep you posted.

#184073 12/07/2008 03:14 AM
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if the man hasnt any money what happens?

#184074 12/07/2008 03:51 AM
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Yes, I would like to know how the English system works on a "Judgement".

In the U.S. you win but if they have no money Your out-of-luck. Many will hire a "collection Ageny" who will usually take at least 50% of recoverable amount of the total judgement. The agency will scrape up any attachable assets.
Most lawyers before taking a "contigency case" will do an Asset search before proceeding with such a case.

Go get em Mongo! BEST OF LUCK! Cool

-serge-

#184075 12/07/2008 04:23 AM
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get em mongo. What goes around comes around...

Thanks for keeping us updated!

#184076 12/07/2008 04:55 AM
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The legal judicial system in England is what is known as the Common Law, which is also used in most Commonwealth countries and the United States.

If the guy can't pay, you can't do anything but it would be very unlikely that the person has zero assets.

#184077 12/07/2008 12:45 PM
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Pat this is not true, you can place a lean on his house, so if he ever sells it the money owed automatically is taken out by the banks and given the plaintiff.

#184078 12/07/2008 01:14 PM
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Eric, that's what I meant when I said that "it would be very unlikely that the person has zero assets ", which can be his house or anything else for that matter. Wink
Of course, I'm no lawyer (only sell cars for a living) Big Grin and here in Quebec, we only use the Civil Code, which is different from the rest of Canada.

#184079 12/07/2008 01:26 PM
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No matter what happen it still sounds like a horrible ordeal.

Gailen David

#184080 12/07/2008 02:41 PM
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He had 4-5 SS swords on the wall, and a whole house full of Lugers, Thompsons, and MP40s and other WW2 Guns it was like an armoury. Apparantly he is a big gun collector they were absolutely everywhere stacked up in every corner he was saying some of them were worth thousands. He has money and goods from ripping people like me off!.

Basically I take a judgement, then I instruct a high court baliff. The reason you instruct a high court baliff is they add their bill onto yours and act far more aggresively in taking goods over a prelonged period of time.

Now you would leave it for an indetermined period of time then unless he never wants anything he collects near him you will get your money at some stage. To be frank that will be a lot worse for him being a collector/dealer of stuff like this never knowing when the baliffs will turn up and take it all. So he will have to have nothing forever or either pay me or wait for the knock at the door. Also it will screw his credit up beyond belief having a nice county court judgement.

He stole my money dishonestly,I told him he could have given me one of the SS swords to sell if he had really spent the money. He would do it to someone else again and again so I dont care how much it costs even if I get nothing back I will follow the law to the letter in reclaiming my money.

All he had to do was the right thing and honour his seven days and give me my money back. He deserves everything coming to him.

#184081 12/07/2008 03:19 PM
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Back in the sixties I ran ads for militaria and was set-up by crooks who were smarter then I was. Got nailed for thousands of dollars
that I never recovered. Looking back I consider this my "paying for an education" era. Remember this was before good reference books or the helping hands found on the internet forums. It was a jungle. Knowledge is power but it does not always come cheaply. Buy every book on the subject you are collecting. Don't buy without a guarantee from a reputable dealer unless you know your stuff. Attend major shows to learn what going on. If you hang around with knowledgeable collectors at these shows you will learn more in a couple of days then you will learn in two years in front of your computor. Stop looking for super bargins from dealers, there usually a reason why it's cheap. Ask yourself, "how did I get so lucky?" I send back 30% of the items that are offered to me because in my opinion the stuff isn't real. I may miss a piece now and then from being overly cautious but I would rather be safe then sorry.

Gailen David

#184082 12/07/2008 03:52 PM
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Words of wisdom to follow! I am willing to pay a little more from a honest dealer for the real deal, as your paying extra for the knowledge. IMO the cloth stuff is REALLY hard, as there are tons of fakes. Now the medals are even getting harder to tell. Scares me.

IMO going to the shows is also key, holding the real deal is critical. You can't photo every detail. Weights, texture, even smell can help. Text books are key as well.

#184083 12/07/2008 04:15 PM
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Cloth and medals are tough even for the most knowledgeable collector in those areas. I like SS cloth but I am real careful of what I buy. Medals are always a study in progress since new fakes surface constantly. You've got to know pin & catch arangements along with key manufacturer characteristics. It's not easy but not impossible to learn. Some really great books have been published in the last few years. Buy these books if your fooling with badges. I spent almost $500 at the Max Show on newly published books on Badges. In my opinion money well spent.

Gailen David

#184084 12/07/2008 11:09 PM
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i saw this wheel chair bound collector/dealer at the last farnham he bought a f-s knife i had been looking at, he then spent some time with a dealer who seemed to know him quite well perhaps a trip to farnham on sunday is in order

#184085 12/08/2008 12:28 AM
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Oh he's broke alright...poor gimp can't afford to pay you back. Only has a house full of SS degen's,Luger's,Thompson's,MP-40's & etc. And goes to the shows and still buys! Eek Mad

Now I'm getting Pi**ed. Sounds just like other "Broke" people I've known when it was time for them to pay! Mad
Everythings in the wife's name but they are the only ones with the combo to the floor safe.

The only time you can get them to pay attention is by fileing a Lawsuit. But that just spoils that particular day. The next ...it's business as usual. Because they just don't "get-it". They been getting away with it for too long. Then one day...they do it again and this time they are in the soup. Just like "The Juice" O.J. Simpson. They finally can't wiggle out anymore and get "SQUEEZED". Razz

Regards,
-serge-

#184086 12/08/2008 02:34 AM
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I say take him off shore off a boat deck and shove him overboard on his wheelchair!

#184087 12/08/2008 04:36 AM
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Time to dig up Tommy Udo (Richard Widmark "Kiss of Death")in the wheelchair scene. Big Grin for this guy.Hope you make out OK on this

If you can't remember the movie google Tommy Udo and watch the trailer on you tube.


You know you're over the hill when "Happy Hour" means Nap Time


#184088 01/02/2009 01:26 PM
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Gailen,

Youd mentioned getting burned running ads. I have a few ads and getting some responses.

If you mind sharing, how did they "set you up"?
Selling good repros?

Ive been reading this post with interest and I approach my buying like walking in a minefield. If they are common items Army, luft, daggers for a fair price Ill buy them. Helmets, badges ALL CLOTH Ill stay away from.

The high dollar daggers... Himmler/Rohm etc. I either buy them from top dealers or at repro prices. Its worked out OK since I bought a Knights cross for 50.00 and it was good but I was prepared if it wasnt.

Chris

#184089 01/23/2009 03:07 PM
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To make sure that you dont get burnt like me please read this as it is a great way to clearly spot a post war etch.

You can see this actual fake rohm dagger etch here. I have used this method as part of the ongoing legal action here, the pictures speak for themselves.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/217096573/m/7480024095

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