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#183990 06/19/2008 04:55 PM
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Not the best photo in the world with my shaky hands but here's a section of my partial EP&S Rohm for comparison...

IMG_0386.JPG (35.52 KB, 645 downloads)
#183991 06/19/2008 06:42 PM
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C'mon, mate, one questionable dagger and quitting the hobby for 'star wars figurines'? Where is your gameness? Go ahead, this should be the right hobby for you. Easy come, easy go.

#183992 06/19/2008 08:04 PM
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Mongo, last year I asked expert opinion on a dagger, got the OK & subsequently got burned in a big way. Unfortunately I didn`t find out for many months! I felt like that was the end for me at that time. I cooled off and didn`t do anything hasty. Now I still enjoy the hobby but I stick to what I know. I think that any collector who is honest will admit they have made mistakes & you have to roll with the punches or get out. If in doubt about any piece then best to stay away from it than lose big money on the say so of others.


War is when your government tells you who the enemy is.
Revolution is when you figure it out for yourself.
#183993 06/20/2008 02:40 PM
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Was the OP not given an inspection period?

If there is doubt, why not return it, and move forward instead of the drastic step of selling off his collection and leaving the hobby? Confused

Surely EP & S are one of the more common makers of Rohms, and a more 'textbook' example can be found if one is desired..

#183994 06/20/2008 03:07 PM
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Kursk if you look in the For Sale forum you will see that Mongo has sold most of his daggers in less than a day a fantastic result but hopefully one he wont regret
He thought he had a 7 day inspection period but when he tried to return the Rohm the seller reneged on the return policy prompting Mongo into becoming one of the most successful vendor of TR daggers ever seen bet some of the big boys dont shift that volume or value in under a day

#183995 06/20/2008 03:16 PM
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I think dealers who do NOT honor their published guarantee's should be named so we know who they are. It's a "short" list but includes a well known few guys.

Mark Mad

#183996 06/20/2008 03:17 PM
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Whats that tell you on the return policy?

Gailen David

#183997 06/20/2008 03:37 PM
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I agree, that particular dealer should be NAMED, for the good of collecting community.

#183998 06/20/2008 03:50 PM
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I thought this forum was about helping people to not make mistakes, if naming a dealer does that, so be it.

Nolan


The older I get the better I was!
#183999 06/20/2008 04:53 PM
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I never said it was a dealer this is what happened.

A week or two ago someone e-mailed then called me asking for two scabbard screws and a pommel nut for an SA. I had a long chat with him on the phone and he seemed nice enough, lived fairly local and seemed really interested in an opinion in an SS he was buying supposidly for his father.

He calls me again to say that he is in a wheel chair and asks if I could pop out to see him as travelling was a problem. I went round there and sure enough he was clearly disabled and we sat at a table in his dining room. He shows me some piece of crap SS dagger that has a real blade and one real crossguard. He said he was about to buy it for 1,000 and asked me what if anything was wrong with it. I explained it was more repro than real and told him not to buy it.

He said he had an NSKK that I could look at that he had traded some stuff for some years before. I took it off the wal and it was an early ground Rohm (maybe) in a vertical hanger The handle was right, the crossguards were later ones and the scabbard was later. I told him and he seemed very surprised.

We chatted a bit more I gave him the scabbard screws and pomel nut he needed for free and he asked if I could hang the NSKK back on the wall. As he pointed to where it hung up I noticed an SS in a cupboard with a bag. He said oh you can look at that and I took it out the case. Now as you know I have quite a few SS daggers and there was nothing wrong with it. He said take it apart and have a look if you like. The pomel nut was hand tight I took it to bits and all looked good, It was a fully ground rohm and fine. We talked about it for a bit longer and he said I have another nice one for you to look at before you go. He told me where it was and I grabbed it, it was the Pack full Rohm.

I took it out the scabbard and remarked how nice it was. He explained that with changes in UK gun laws he had traded two something or others for it that the guy had sold for 4400. He said it was not for sale but "you never know". Before I left he asked if he could buy an old SA off me to try and put early fittings on the ground rohm he had.

I said if I was passing I would pop in and let him have a look at it although I was not sure if I wanted to break it or sell it as it was untidy but honest.

A week later I get a call telling me that he knows someone who bought an SS Full rohm from the US a few years back that was selling it for 8,500. I explained that I might be interested in it but would need provinence and a good second opinion before I would go and part with that kind of money. He said that was fine as it was 100%. Also asked me if he could look a that salty SA I had for bits and said how he enjoyed meeting me last time.

I popped round there with the SA and a few nice other bits to just show him as he was interested in what certain daggers supposidly looked like. He also said that over the years quite a few people had been trying to get the full rohm off of him. He also said that he was now wanting another SS sword as there were three or four there. He then said he would be prepaired to sell the full rohm and Eick SS for the right money for the sword. We discussed it and I said provided I could get the full rohm checked out I was happy paying 5200 for the pair plus two SA daggers he wanted.

He asked me if I could use the two SA daggers parts to make his parts SS and his ground part rohm more original for him as he was hoffified to hear from me that they were wrong. So I agreed on the understanding that he knew they would just still be parts daggers and would not be correct etc. He told me he would just hang them back on the wall to replace the two I would buy from him. I took his two daggers home stripped these two SAs down and it took me thirteen hours to make as good a job as possible on them.

I took some pics of that full rohm on my mobile that night and posted them here on the forum. A few people made comments and someone e-mailed me to tell me it was right and nice etc. Still being scepticle I told him I was not interested in paying for it until I had it verified and checked out. He told me I could have seven days to do that, but as he does not know where I live he would need the money up front. Clearly being severely disabled the guy was not going anywhere and to be honest I trusted him. I asked for his bank details and he told me that cash would be preferable as the chap he was buying the SS sword from wanted cash providing I was happy.

I was a bit unhappy about that so he said speak to "kevin" he dials the phone and puts it on speaker. The voice on the end of the phone told me he used to own the full rohm, not being funny I must be silly not to know it was right. I said a few people on a forum I use had a few reservations but the pics were bad. He told me had a few people look at it when he owned it including Harvy and said it was great. He then asked what forum and laughed saying most of them on there are "armchair collectors and know nothing" or something similar. After a bit more of the same I handed the money over and took the two daggers confirming the seven day thing, and gave him his two repaired ones that he was really pleased with. After a few comments on here I asked for my money back, he told me he had spent it the next day.

I have been on the phone several times asking for my money back and he point blank refuses. He says today that It is clearly my fault and I have no proof its wrong etc etc. I said I would take him to court, he said im disabled you know that I am not even going to be able to get there..

I said I would take it back to him and he could give me two SS swords he has until he gets my money back and he refused then saying its my fault etc etc and that I ruined his two daggers by repairing them.

I tell him bluntly that I am the victim here, we agreed on a 7 day period. I gave him 5200 plus two SAs and spent 13 hours working on his others for him.

IMO I have been targeted, he is a front man that it will proove difficult to get into court. That being said out of principal I will just keep going with it even if I loose because the moneys a big hit but the principal is the stab to the heart.

Keep your eyes out for an RZM SS with a nice blade but with N/S scabbard fittings and X/Gs. It has the Gau mark OST on the X/G. Also a ground partial Rohm from anyone in England.

#184000 06/20/2008 05:17 PM
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That's terrible! I really feel for you. These type of crooks are everywhere these days. You just don't know who to trust? If you keep collecting in time your gains will far exceed your loses. This is a story I have heard many times. We lose some really good guys over this type of crap.

Gailen David

#184001 06/20/2008 05:17 PM
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Sad tale..
Now..here is what i would do if i were you..
Ring up a reputable soliciter, get an opinion.Keep that in your back pocket.A first time consult should not cost you a thing, and will be cheap insurance.

Second, i would contact Gailen David, and offer to pay him to have it inspected in hand so that the authenticity can be determined yes or no.Armed with this information, you can set a course of action.

If it is bad, you can produce informed evidence in small claims court.

That is the civil way..in my old days, i would have marched right over and relieved the gent of goods with equiv. value..

This man had no intention of honouring any agreement and i would say all bets are off..do whatever you feel you have to do (within legal boundaries..) to recoup your losses..

#184002 06/20/2008 05:59 PM
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Sorry to see this happen to you Mongo. Frown

It does sound like you were targeted. A slick con-job with a "cripple" used as a front..perhaps.

As Gailen said we have seen this before. Collectors have always been targeted by the swindlers be it Art, Antiques or anything of value.

I have seen the "For Sale" section. Most of the
fine daggers you have bought recently and shown on this forum. I may be wrong but it appears that you may have lost money also on the sale in the haste of getting it all behind you.
I did that exact same thing back in the 1970's.

Hope you get some satisfaction from the legal system. At least make them hire a lawyer!

Best of Luck.
-serge-

#184003 06/20/2008 06:05 PM
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I hate to say it but I smelled a rat in the first two paragraphs of your post! To bad their's no more Ty Cobb!

#184004 06/20/2008 09:17 PM
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Thanks guys, for me the hardest part of all of this was telling my wife. Being so keen on this stuff I took her out to dinner the other night to explain what I wanted to spend money on after buying 2 SSs just last week.

After all this happened more than anything I feel really guilty for letting her down as its really our money and not mine if you know what I mean. She is so good she let me do it and was pleased for me. I now feel so bad I am gonna put every penny back.. so I have been on a big sell off.

#184005 06/20/2008 10:20 PM
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That is very honerable of you. I really do understand. Back in the sixties we had no forum and most of the times and no one to go to for help. We made lots of mistakes. I guess it was a case of paying for your education back then. I remember quite few $3000 mistakes, this is 40 some years ago, that's like $7500 now and was working for $175 a week. I told my wife I was going to get out and she asked me did I love collecting this stuff and also did I think I could pick up enough knowledge in order for us not to go broke? I answered yes, I do, and I can to the questions. It's a tough road. It takes time and usually some sacrifices.

Gailen David

#184006 06/21/2008 11:49 AM
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I am really sorry for what happened to you, Mongo. Too bad, you made the very drastic decision to quit this great hobby. But if that improves the relationship with your woman, than it is understandable...


My advice to collectors is always:

- Start in the safer area's of the hobby (for example standard SA's) and build up experience before moving to the more exotic stuff (like Rhm's)

- Spend only your own cash on your hobby and just the money that you will not need for at least the coming 10 years (same rule as for investments in stock!)

- Never let a seller put pressure on you and if you have the slightest doubt than don't buy!

- Ask as much (expert) advice as you can, like Gailen said: we are so spoiled thanks to forums like this one! Personally, I am only collection since the Forum era and honestly, I would not have dared starting without it!

Best greetings,

Herman


You never have enough HJ-knifes!
#184007 06/21/2008 03:47 PM
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The forum is great but don't forget the books. Careful study of the photos in existing books would probably have prevented this theft.


MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
#184008 06/21/2008 04:22 PM
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I'm quite sorry to hear of your stories with this fellow. I don't know if you were targeted or it was a crime of opportunity with you being the conveinent patsy this time around I'm sorry to say. You're probably not the first person he's taken & quite likely not the last.

I guess the only way you would have had a little more to work with would have been some sort of receipt stating the 7 day return policy.
Wheelchair of not, his a55 needs to be taken to court. If he can't get there, it's his problem & no skin off your nose. With a judgment, you could put a lien on his house, car, assets, etc. While this might turn out to be a fruitless endeavor, it's something I urge you to consider as he needs to be held accountable for his actions, even if it's only to spend money on a lawyer.

Besides the civil court route seeking restitution, don't lose sight that this was a crime. What happened to you is, IMO, an out & out theft only marginally different that if he had picked your pocket on the way home from the bank. You should also speak with the local cops to see if they can rattle his cage. You may even be able to articulate the complaint well enough for the cops to actually arrest this turd.

I've seen your recent sale & watched with horror. Countless days of eagerness & the joy of so many treasures you found. I know they will go to good homes but I'm sad this incident has caused you to sell off stuff in bulk. I've bought the occasional bad piece (as have most of us). It disgusted me but only strengthened my resolve to be able to vet the good from the bad. Your story is also the main reason I have never purchased a Rohm piece thus far. I do wish you luck & hope you'll be back someday, maybe poorer but definitely wiser for the experience.


GDC Gold Badge #290
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#184009 06/21/2008 05:53 PM
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Thanks for your post, we have all been done at least a few times. The first ever SA I bought was a repro. When I found out I was disapointed but by that time it actually got me collecting. Over the last 8-10 years of collecting I have ended up with a few minor bad bits but nothing that was so expensive or painful to deal with.

My first step is professional written verification of the Rohm to establish just what it is. After that I will be instructing Lawyers, he might be phyically disabled but he is not mentally retarded so he knew what he was doing.

Even loosing more money on this with legal costs would give me some element of satisfaction. If he thinks twice about it next time because I just wont give up on him legally then that will be reward enough.

I have enjoyed buying some really nice stuff of late and this just ruined it for me as it was a hell of a knock. Justice will be served by the book using every legal way possible. Smile

#184010 06/21/2008 08:02 PM
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Good on you mongo..

#184011 06/22/2008 10:02 PM
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No wonder this guy's in a wheelchair.

DTS

#184012 06/24/2008 01:11 PM
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Hey Mongo

did you not go round to the man and get your money back if it were me i would have gone round and kicked the door in and taken the value in what ever was there to take and sold it on before being arrested

Panzer

#184013 06/24/2008 01:30 PM
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Great idea, why didn't I think of that?!

Gailen David

#184014 06/24/2008 03:19 PM
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I think of the old saying, and it goes for most collecting not just TR is you have to be able to walk before you can Run!!! i see it all the time and its allways the guys with all the cash

i feel sorry for you have you been around to pay him a visit

#184015 06/25/2008 08:43 PM
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Can anyone recommend anyone in the UK I can send/take this to for a written apraisal. Who is now the leading authority over here?. I dont mind paying but will need it in writing.

Sending it to the USA is an option but a bit risky just in case it gets lost or stolen in customs etc.

Thanks

#184016 06/26/2008 06:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mongobongo:
Can anyone recommend anyone in the UK I can send/take this to for a written apraisal. Who is now the leading authority over here?. I dont mind paying but will need it in writing.

Sending it to the USA is an option but a bit risky just in case it gets lost or stolen in customs etc.

Hi Martin What Higher authority is there than the combined knowlege of this forum.If you print out the findings of this thread it will have more legal weight than one mans written appraisal. Trading standards will be interested in the case they might already have a file on this operator! Regards Bunnter p.s Bill Ellison Verified my Boker SS Rhom some years ago.

Thanks

#184017 06/26/2008 07:31 PM
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Bill knows his SS daggers.

Gailen

#184018 06/26/2008 08:37 PM
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Bunter I need someone to do it in hand, ??

#184019 06/26/2008 08:49 PM
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Both guys are in England. I don't think anyones coming to your door to do it.

#184020 06/26/2008 10:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mongobongo:
Can anyone recommend anyone in the UK I can send/take this to for a written apraisal. Who is now the leading authority over here?. I dont mind paying but will need it in writing.

Sending it to the USA is an option but a bit risky just in case it gets lost or stolen in customs etc.

Thanks


Fred Stephens: frederickjstephens@yahoo.co.uk

#184021 06/27/2008 06:36 PM
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Thanks for that, I have his book on reproductions as well. Really good read by all accounts!

#184022 06/27/2008 07:45 PM
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With Fred's many decade background and authorship of the "Reproduction? Recognition!", it should stand up in any court as an "authority".
Besides he's always willing to help collectors.
A true gentelman.

-serge-

#184023 07/02/2008 05:21 AM
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Martin,
Fred Stephens is the man you need to talk to,if you need his telephone number let me know.
Regards
Steve

#184024 07/09/2008 01:05 AM
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Hey Guys,

I have been watching this thread with a great deal of interest and just wanted to make a few observations. At the beginning of the thread there was a flood of opinions that the dagger in question was definately good, beautiful, Proper, and undoubtedly Original. To this point, I have seen NO-ONE actually come out and say the dagger is bad, Not one! Gailen DID say he didn't like certain things about it, but he also said he MIGHT be Wrong. However tongue in Cheek. The Court thing is going to be a waste of time, as I see it, because for Every 5 guys you get to say it is wrong there will be 5 guys available to say it is Right! We ALL KNOW THAT is a FACT. As to the guy who sold it to you, He is a SKUNK for sure! For not honoring his 7 day agreement. But, He also may be genuinely convinced that the item is good.

I am very curious, Mongo, that you were so quick to accept the few dissenters that insinuated, not said outright, that the dagger is bad! especiall to the point that you are selling off all your stuff. That is a Total Shame and I do not think that, Even now, you have really thought out any of your actions. I guess it is just the difference between a pessimist and an optimist! Doesn't ANYONE ELSE see this??????

Regards,

Railgun 88

#184025 07/09/2008 10:49 AM
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I see what your saying Railgun.
It's unfortunate that Mongo couldn't get his money back but that is not that RARE of an occurance. Anyone who has been in this hobby a while will have some items he got "stuck" with for various reasons.
So what does one do?
You step back take a breather and don't do anything hasty that you might regret later. Don't let your emotions of the moment get the better of you.
Stick the beast in the back of the bottom drawer and move forward.
It is part of this hobby that we will all encounter some day.

-serge-

#184026 07/09/2008 01:47 PM
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I cant really comment further on this at the moment.. sorry

#184027 07/09/2008 03:42 PM
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Fair Enough, Mongo! Confused But, I would strongly suggest you take no further action at the moment and send the Dagger to someone for a "Hands on" Opinion! Relax and see where the chips fall! As Serge said, we have all been there and can totally relate to what you are feeling. Oh, and by the way, if you really decide to change your collecting interests, I have a ton of Star Trek Collectables to get you started! Big Grin

#184028 07/09/2008 04:47 PM
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rest assured I am taking all the appropriate steps in the right order.

Do you know him or this dagger by chance?

Just curious, or do you think it is right?

#184029 07/09/2008 05:43 PM
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Why dont we leave it alone guy,s and let
events unfold.I,m sure Mongo is doing what he must do for closure.I,m sure he will let us know what transpires in due course....
IMO
Seiler (Yank in UK)

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