UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum water police dagger help

hi to all, i find this dagger on ebay, in your opinion it is surely fake?
i add the pics i find

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I have sought information on the Water customs dagger in the past & have found that very little is available. The books that I have seen do not have very detailed images & the internet will return almost nothing. The reference galleries of this site are quite useless for any comparisons &/or research on this, or for that matter any other edged weapon of the period. The term "reference" is rather misleading & I would even be cautious of using the word guide. For the foremost forum & resource for TR edged weapons it should be much better. If any member does have one of these daggers then in over 5 years I am yet to see one. There may have been information at some time in the past but much has been lost due to software/hosting problems as yet unresolved.

The enigmatic nature of this dagger caused me to seek expert opinion from several very experienced collectors & dealers & I quote

" The water customs dagger is the hardest of all the daggers to authenticate".

I have come to the conclusion that these daggers although acknowledged as being rare are in fact so very rare that even an original would most likely be dismissed as a reproduction by most people unless it was being sold with a COA from but a couple of dealers.

Someone that I communicated with told me that they had some old Wittmann catalogues & amongst them were found five of the Wasserzoll daggers.

I asked if I could have scans for my own reference but unfortunately they were not forthcoming. However it was interesting to note the following. According to what I was told three of those five daggers had the brass/bronze based crossguard as alluded to in some reference books. Conversely another dealer with over 50 years experience stated to me that he "did not believe that any but those with an aluminium crossguard to be original".

You can see how for the collector this becomes difficult for assembling any hard facts!

personally I would not dismiss outright the dagger that you have shown but I must qualify this statement by saying this.

1/ More complete & detailed photographs would be required of all the components. That is to say the dagger would have to be stripped to the component parts & everything recorded in high resolution from the tang to the core of the grip, maker mark etc, "everything"!

2/ A diligent comparison to a known original.

The second of those qualifiers would seem for the time being to be virtually impossible even within this "oracle" of german daggers.

The only other real option would be to have the piece inspected by Tom johnson or Tom Wittmann & without a return privilege from the seller you are without hope of that.

There are so few people that have handled these daggers that even a "hands on" from another experienced collector might not prove useful where a very high quality reprduction is concerned.
It is acknowledged that the detailing of the fittings on the wasserzoll dagger was very poor in comparison to other daggers of the period & that in many cases the very early reproductions were actually of better quality.

I know this is of no REAL help to you but to say that this dagger is enigmatic would be a gross understatement.

The pommel and ferrule have the wrong type of leaves. Very bad large red flags and there are others--but that's enough to make you run.

Houston, you are one of the now few collectors here with a level of knowledge & experience to be able to make such a statement. You no doubt recall when the 60`s reproductions started appearing & would recognise them. Would this be one of them?

Does anyone recall if there was ever any past discussion in depth of this dagger that has been lost? It would be really useful if there were some some pictorial & discussion reference not only for original examples but also any known reproductions but searching brings up very little of anything. And not just here at GDC, but other forums have scant information, other than the occasional reference to someone having one in their collection.

To date I have only seen one 60`s reproduction being sold as such & that was in the for sales here some time ago by Vetter. Unfortunately the images were not good enough to serve as any useful reference for a reproduction piece.

There is plenty of reference for the other more common daggers that can be searched within the forums that enable less experienced collectors to make reasonable judgements, but not the Wasserzoll.

I think the reference galleries must have been a project that never got completed because nothing has been added to them for years. No doubt a result of time constraints for admin with so much else to do running the site from day to day.

The Water Customs is one of the more difficult daggers to explore because it is so rare. If I was going to buy one it would be one that would be identical except for color to a Land Customs by the same maker.
I could be comfortable with one like this--the main concern would probably be the gold gilt and the leather--If it was original -and not a replate/recover.
This is not a dagger for the faint of heart. A for sure original should survive examination by any number of really experienced dealer/collectors who would all agree--Oh yeah! this is a good one for sure. This would be the one to have. It would be VERY big bucks however unless it was in poor condition. There are a very few real ones out there. If you REALLY have to have one and are willing to pay you probably can locate one.
Most that are around are fakes. There are many red flags--many of these red flags should be obvious to the serious collector--simply--something different from the Land Customs of the same maker. Remember though--just ONE red flag is usually not enough to conclude something is a fake. As I have said many times--The vast majority of fakes have SEVERAL red flags.

thanks to all, i'v just contact the seller to have more pics, but if it is original what is the real price on the market?

Snyders treasures has one (WKC)on this page about 1/4 way down the page. Price is $2000.

here

If this is an original then I would say it is a total bargain, even given the condition. It has been there for many months to my certain knowledge & one can but wonder why it hasn`t moved?

I would guesstimate that an example in very good condition would fetch at least $6000 (JMO) & very possibly much more to someone who really wanted it.

Incidentally I have no knowledge of Snyders Treasures whatsoever.

after seeing the crap that he is passing off in the fairbairn sykes listings as real i wouldn't touch anything of his with a barge pole.

If anyone has a real one but is shy of posting it, send the pictures to me and I will post them for you and not reveal your ID.

Dave

BTW, this is not a Water Police dagger but a Water Customs (Wasserzoll) dagger. Two entirely different things.

here other pics, the seller tell me that don't find the mark on the blade ...............?????

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Eughen,

I have looked around as much as I am able & as Houston has already told you these fittings do not look quite correct. Whilst a non maker marked dagger is not at all unusual it is just another question mark against this one.

Houston has not alluded to other red flags that he may have noted but personally for me this would be enough.

I should very much like someone with a reproduction just like it to step up here but I don`t think that will happen.

The only one out of the woodwork veteran acquired original Water Custom's Dagger that I have seen in 50 plus years of looking was an aluminum based WKC. The wash was light and the swastika was broken off. It came with a Land Custom's Dagger by WKC from the same source who got them in Solingen at the end of the war when he was stationed there. These came into my local coin shop in the early 1960s and I didn't have any money at the time and watched them sell, although I probably would have passed with the broken crossguards. At that time I was too poor and too stupid to realize that it is best to always have a known original to compare with other offered pieces and to buy it regardless of your collecting desires for the educational value. Lesson learn, athough too late.
So, based on the years of searching and what I have found, aluminum based fittings make the most sense to me. Why would Solingen manufacturers elect to use Brass when they already were using aluminum for the Land Custom and the date of issuance was 1939. They were already using gold wash for aluminum hilted Army swords, so using a more expensive metal to add another item in inventory to me is a stretch.
JMO and experience,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I agree with Ron and he more or less repeated what I said about the WC and the LC being in all probability just the same except for color with the same maker. However, if a WC was located being brass and other than that identical to the aluminum LC, same maker, that dagger IMO would have a high probability of being period. But--I know of no such dagger. It may be out there though.

Houston/Ron, I`m not intending to be contradictory here but would genuinely like to dispell some of the myths of this dagger & determine some hard facts if that is even at all possible.

I have seen it written that the WC was produced with a brass or bronze crossguard. Now this information may be incorrect but with regard to what I posted above this would be curious to say the least

Quoted from above post;
"A very reliable source told me that they had some old Wittmann catalogues & amongst them were to be found five of the Wasserzoll daggers.
However it was interesting to note the following. According to what I was told three of those five daggers had the brass/bronze based crossguard as alluded to in some reference books. Conversely another dealer with over 50 years experience stated to me that he "did not believe that any but those with an aluminium crossguard to be original".

Perhaps someone with a series of old catalogues could confirm this.

Angolia;" Unlike the hilt fittings of the LC dagger the WC dagger fittings were not constructed of aluminium."

What appears in old catalogs and early reference books is not necessarily gospel to me. I go with my experience and what has been encountered until someone comes up with source material or an undisputed score. I guess that's why I am a conservative.
There were many other NPEA Daggers and combinations that I could have included in my newest reference book, but I elected to only include what was either source or vetted material.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Great discussion.
For some who may not know there are a few "Customs 101" things to know when buying a Customs dagger.
1-Ensure the crossguard wing tips are turned up.
2-Ensure the scabbard body is magnetic.
3- Ensure the scribed lines on the scabbard fittings are only on the obverse.
Lastly these aluminum based daggers are crude. They do not have a quality feel about them like most German daggers.
These are only very basic things but they can save you much heartache.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lakesidetrader:
Great discussion.

Will second that !

Guys, Here are some pics of mine, I have had it for 15+ Years. Sometime around the time I originall got it TJ said it was a good one. a few years after that TW said it was a bad one. I just choose to think it is a good one. All Aluminum with Steel Scabbard Shell, Whole thing is kind of Cheesy and VERY LIGHT. The Scabbard rings were replaced. For what it is worth!


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Here's the rest!

A dagger as rare as this needs a hands on. Not sure anyone is going to go out on a limb with those pics. Keep in mind that even the most experienced dealers have only ever handled a few.