UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum gilt finished

I have a question about gilt finishes, and would like to start with some observations.

A good friend of mine has displayed a brand new gold plated US Navy saber in his office for about 25 years. It originally had a perfectly bright, shiney gold finish. Now it has matt gold finish. I am sure it has not been polished, but perhaps a little gently polish would return the luster to the gold fitting. the gold finish is still perfect, but not nearly as bright and shiney. It looks a lot like the finish we often see on Third Reich army sabers. My collection has been packed in boxes for most of the time that I have owned it, which is about 35 years. I also have a brand new US Navy saber and it looks just like it did in the early 1970's when I bought it. I have not noticed any degradation of the finishes on any of my sabers.
I recently acquired a Third Reich cavalry saber which had what I would consider to be an acceptable amount of original gold finish. It shows some wear at the pommel but the gold finish on the rest of the hilt is in very good condition. There is however, I small area on the knuckle bow where the finish is perfectly bright and shiney. I tried to capture it in a photo but I did not get the result I wanted. At any rate, the bright shiney area is right up next to the lion's mouthand is only about a quarter inch in length if that.
I suspect that pollutants in the air will tarnish a gold finish, and that most of the Third Reich sabers we see show the effects of that tarnish. If an item has been stored in a hilt case or otherwise protected from the environment, that degradation of the finish can be diminished or maybe even prevented. I also suspect that when the sabers were manufactured, the hilts recieved a coat of lacquer or some simlar substance which would have protected the gilding until the lacquer wore off. In the case of my cavalry saber, the little area of the knuckle bow probably never recieved any wear and the lacquer is still intact with its perfect gold finish underneath. the underside of a lot of crossguards also will often be found with perfect finishes, and I suspect for the same reason.
An old Eickhorn catalog that I have shows different prices for different finishes, and one of them is Fire Gilt. I dont think fire gilding is involved here, But Im not sure.
At any rate I am posting photos of the saber and the area of bright gilting and asking if I am correct in my theory or not. Thanks, Joe S

The bright area.

A related question. I hear a lot about the use of "sudsy ammonia" to spiff up gilded hilts. Ammonia is a common ingredient in brass polish, I assume the use of sudsy ammonia merely imparts a shine to the base metal of the hilt if and where the gilding is worn through and does nothing for the gilting,am I correct? Thanks, Joe S

May I ask, what is 'sudsy ammonia' and where can it be obtained?

John

it works great on jewelry too!!

King of the 99 cent stores,,,Parsons!!

or for the blooming chemist!!
http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Soapy-Ammonia-Cleaning-Solution

Thank ya, thank ya.

John

It can be made at home as well.

Mix warm water, small amount of liquid amonia, and some mild dishsoap preferably with sugar (lemon scent, etc).

I've found it to be useful for cleaning war badges as well. However, I use a milder mixture.

Polishing any kind of a gold plated finish is going to eventually lead to its destruction. The overall durability of a plated finish is normally a function of its thickness, and any removal of the relatively soft gold is not going to help. What causes the tarnish that is sometimes seen with gold plated finishes is probably because of what it was alloyed with, and especially some of the more reddish colored gold seen on many German sabers, it was most likely copper.

My point being that not all gold plated finishes are equal - and I think that you have to look at each one individually. And while a lacquer or some other kind of organic barrier could have been originally applied. If it was, I’m not so sure that ammonia is going to assist it in remaining intact or not. (Solid, gold filled, rolled gold plate, or electroplated jewelry is really a different issue: But I would imagine that especially lightly plated/costume jewelry is not going to stand up very well to repeated cleaning.)

As for Third Reich era "fire gilt". My sense of it is that it is most likely advertising "hype" describing an extra heavy gold electroplating versus actual fire gilt which is an entirely different process. With the extra heavy electroplating replicating to some extent the relatively thick gold deposited by the original process, with the added benefit of a more even distribution of the gold.

To perhaps better illustrate some of what I am referring to: Here is an image of a Napoleonic era French Light cavalry officer’s fire blued and gilt (over hand engraving) saber blade. Notice the slightly different shades of blue (done at about 575 °F), with the amalgamated mercury burning off leaving uneven gold deposits. Also note that on a 200 plus year old sword blade the gold has not really changed color (because gold = gold.) FP

They were for sure doing some fire guilt at WKC in the 30s and 40s I saw the room some time ago. At that time I only looked through the door, was not able to walk in due to the mercury that was used in the room. Floors walls etc..

amalgamated mercury : this is what they used on your imperial swords and allso on the imperial blade presentations (they could control the the mercury gold mix)

I guess I should re-state the question for clarification: Why is there the apparently two types of finish on the above cavalry saber? Has a layer of shiney gold been worn off or, as I suspect, has the gold merely been subjected to a level of tarnish or corrosion except where still protected by some type of clear finish such as lacguer? Thanks! Joe S

1st off you have the brass end soldered to the tang of the blade. when the lionhead sword is is put together that brass tang is peened and most of time detaled out. The sword hilt parts are plated before they are put together. This is whay you have the two colors in your picture.

I hope I'm looking at the picture right..

I may be interpreting the question inocrrectly, but are you referring to brass base of the hilt? Some people confuse the gilt with actually shined up brass..the base metal often found on these saber hilts. Originally, the saber hilt was coated with a type of laquer, underneath would be the golden colored gilt, then under that would be eith the brass or aluminum base metal. Often times, we see the brass hilted sabers with portions of the original gilt intact, while on other parts of the saber, that were more subject to touching, and wear, devoid of the gilt and down to the base brass. This could account for the distinctly different color you refer to. Hopefully, I infered the correct information from your question.

Joe, Obviously an “in person/first hand” look is better. Assuming that we are all talking about the same thing - which is the end of the knuckle bow before it goes underneath the back piece (?). From the image, I’m going to make a guess here that the brass was cleaned and simultaneously very lightly micro-etched giving it a ‘frosty’ texture to aid the plating in adhering to the substrate. With the knuckle bow being suspended from a wire in a tank from the hole in the tang - and the knuckle bow not being completely immersed. And then the part taken to an electroplating tank where the gold was applied leaving the tang hole end of the bow with a brighter (more polished) appearance.

Fire gilt was for most practical purposes discontinued in the 1830’s because it was determined that it was killing off the workers at a very young age. In about the middle of the (19th) century electroplating was developed. Fire gilt did not completely disappear, but because of the very severe health hazards its use was greatly diminished. Typically the ratio of gold to mercury was one part gold to eight or nine of mercury, with the mercury boiling off in the furnace. The very poisonous mercury vapor had to go somewhere, which is easier to do with modern techniques, but back then it would not have been my first choice as an occupation.

As was touched on previously actual fire gilt has an uneven appearance/texture. With smooth surfaces it can be (slightly) polished to even it out, but with intricate surfaces you are going to see more unevenness. To show that aspect here is a close up of a lion head. Although I image that I might be able to find something that shows it better if I had more time to look. Regards to All, FP

Picture looks great for fire gilt.. It has that correct look check it out http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/fire/hd_fire.htm

Thanks for your input on this question everyone. I have not been able to get a photograph that depicts the bright finish at the top of the knukle-bow. I will try this weekend if the weather permits and I can get a photo on the front porch with some ambient light. The following photo depicts the bright finish which is commonly found on the underside of the crossguard. It doesnt show the contrast between the matt finish and the high gloss, but hopefully you get the idea. At first I thought Fred's theory had potential until I realized that the underside of the crossguard would have been completely immersed in the cleaning solution so I dont think that theory is valid. So far, the most logical answer is the clear lacquer theory, after the clear finish gets worn through , the corrosive elements in the air slowly tarnish the non-gold elements in the finish resulting in the muted gold finish which is commonly found on Third Reich army sabers. The reference to fire-gilding was in a Carl Eickhorn price list dated 1899 A tombach lionhead saber was priced at 11 DM, "vergold" priced at 13.5 DM, adn "Feuergold" at 23.50DM.Joe S

Joe, The additional piece of information about a bright appearing underside to the knuckle bow does raise one other possibility. A light abrasive (sand) blast to clean up the casting and hand work? I’ve seen what looked like it could have been an abrasive blast inside recesses, with a polish on the high areas for contrast, with some items.

I’m looking forward to the new pictures - although nothing IMO beats a first hand look. Best Regards, FP.