UBB.threads

The double etched blade is –My time in service—with helmet and eagle with swastika. Reverse side is PANZER REGT.7 with double skulls and cross bones. It is stamped with the makers mark an outline of a tiger on one side and the lettering TIGER SOLIGEN on the other side.

The SS etched blade is etched my time in service with oak leaves and the beautiful circle of a very clean cut SS symbol. It is stamped with the HOLLER etch on the reverse side. I called these two bayonets MY TIME IN SERVICE as I do not know the exact wording of the printing on both of them so please clarify..”FUR ERINNERUNG AN MEINE DIENFTZEIT”

Thank you for looking
Sincerely,
HUBERTUS

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This is the last photo. Thank you all for the nice posts I received in the past.
Sincerely,
Hubertus

Hi Ralph,
I think you are basically correct in your translation of "Zur Erinnerung an meine Dienstzeit". I believe a literal translation would be "In Rememberence of my Servicetime".

Your Tiger example reflects a standard obverse etch created by Robert Klaas. Since Tiger was not one of the major players in the KS98 market, they purchased etched blades from Klaas and possibly others. The reverse Panzer etch is one I’ve not seen previously but uses the distinctive Klaas bookends.and appears to be a patented design i.e. Ges Gesch. Perhaps it’s a trick of the lighting, but the bottom border of the etch seems to be angled slightly with the right side being closer to the edge of the blade. All in all, a beautiful piece.

The Höller example:
Well, as with any SS marked bayonet, I think we will hear several comments from the members about this one. Since it’s in your collection, and with your experience, my first inclination is that it’s good. However, here are a few questions I have for you and our other members, more astute than I.
1. This is, no doubt, a variation of the Robt. Klaas Nr. 1264 patented etch. The only difference being the SS on the ricasso which normally has the Hoheitabzeichen superimposed on a German helmet. Since Höller was a major KS98 manufacturer with many of their own etch patterns, what conditions would prompt them to utilize another manufacturer’s patented etch? Has this been observed in other examples?
2. Question for Ralph -
Beneath the leather buffer, is the etch marked - “Ges. Geschuzt”? According to Wayne Techet’s book, pg. 230, this was supposedly done on this etch pattern.
3. Regarding the SS runes on the ricasso. I find it unusual that the division between the upper and lower part of each rune is horizontal rather than the normally seen diagonal division.

Please consider these to be questions in the pursuit of further knowledge, and not an opinion about the originality of either of these lovely pieces. Hopefully, we’ll get an opinion from Houston and others who are far more experienced in these matters than I.

Best regards,
Denny

Hi Ralph,

Can you post a closer picture of the obverse and reverse rivets and grip plates? Very interesting bayonet nonetheless

An “Art Deco” set of SS runes? Not something that I would have expected. And would be curious myself as to what’s under the washer looking also at the fit. For sure it’s very unusual, but don’t know how it fits into the scheme of things at the moment. FP

Denny thank you for your post. I had always heard the translation had to do with service time but was not sure of the correct phrase that went with the German writing.
The Tiger bayonet is an eye catcher because of the skull and cross bones and I have been told two times they thought it came from the Julian Milestone collection but I did not acquire it from it and this is hear say.
The Holler example is going to be a real stinger and I paid a lot of attention to your reply as I do not know where, why, how or anything about it except the SS emblem caught my attention and caused me to purchase it. I truly have no knowledge about the SS. Fred Prinz said in his post An “Art Deco” set of SS runes. I never looked that close at SS symbols before but that sure fits the picture of this particular pair. There is no “Ges Geschuzt” marks on the blade that I can find. I am happy to post these two pieces and am aware there is always curiosity and criticism but I know that is what the BCN forum is for. I have collected a lot of knowledge about pieces I own from the Hunting and BCN forums. I am not a historical person that can fill my posts with background information and have no qualms about receiving it be it being good, bad or indifferent. We all learn from each other.
Sincerely,
Hubertus

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Billy G thank you for your post. Here is a close up of some rivits and emblems.
Sincerely,
Hubertus

quote:

Originally posted by Hubertus:
I am happy to post these two pieces and am aware there is always curiosity and criticism but I know that is what the BCN forum is for. I have collected a lot of knowledge about pieces I own from the Hunting and BCN forums. I am not a historical person that can fill my posts with background information and have no qualms about receiving it be it being good, bad or indifferent. We all learn from each other.
Sincerely,
Hubertus

Ralph,
That is truly what this forum is all about and exactly the spirit in which my questions are posed.
Thanks for posting the pics of the long & short versions of the standard Robt. Klaas Nr. 1264 patented etch. We can plainly see that both carry the Ges. Gesch. patent markings. Are both of these Klaas marked on the reverse?
The only other question I have about these is "why do you have two of them and I have none?". Very nice.

Photograph # 13.
Denny- on your request about the Klass marks. The one on the left is on the short blade and the one on the right is on the long blade. I do not know the time periods for these stamped trade marks.
Sincerely,
Hubertus

Ralph

I also have the short bladed version like you have pictured, its one of my favorites. Besides the Ges Gesch missing of your SS bayonet I noticed that the engraving doesn't cover the fuller completely, toward the tip. I don't remember ever seeing one come up short. But this is a different design. So who knows??

If I had a chance of buying one like yours(assuming I had the money ) I would have to pass, mainly because I'm to conservative and hate to take a chance and lose $$$$.

But to tell you the truth I wish it was in my collection regradless of my previous statements.

TKissinger

Any etched bayonet with SS runics must be examined in hand with attention to every detail. I have seen ONE that I know was real. One very good thing about Ralph's is that it is the only one I have seen or know of. When they fake these--they just don't make one.

Hi Ralph,

From your pictures I can't see anything wrong with the reverse rivets. A majority of the postwar etches I've seen have exhibited pretty telltale signs that the rivets had been removed and the grip plates usually showed sure signs they had been gouged in an attempt to remove the original rivets.
I have to agree with Terry, I'd love to have the piece in my pile regardless of any of the foregoing.

There is no argument that these are some very attractive looking dress bayonets. I do still have a couple of questions: Are those gaps between the juncture of the blade and crossguard on the 'Art Deco' SS bayonet? Also, are the rivets blued? And what does the other side of them look like in comparison? Regards, FP

Does anybody think someone would like such an eagle style, what happen to the runes? Maybe it´s modern art style but for sure nothing for me.

Fred,

The rivets on the Höller look silver to me, I don't think they're blued.

Billy,

That’s what I first thought with the trademark side. Then looking at the “SS” side they look flatter and blued or painted and darker? And back to the trademark side dome shaped with most of the bluing worn off?? And the ‘flat’ rivet side is the one next to the frog rubbing the leather?
Regards, Fred

Fred,

Now you've got me thinking again. I realize this would be a special purchase price but this piece has the Höller trademark on the obverse. A majority of bayonets I have show the manufacturer's trademark on the reverse with the usual exception to this being an occasional distributor's mark on the obverse ricasso.

I only have one Höller bayonet myself, a dual marked Feuerwehr bayonet with a Fritz Massong, Saarbrücken distributor mark on the obverse. I checked just to make sure Höller wasn't an exception and marked their obverse ricassos. Have you found they did?

Billy
I have a plain bladed Holler with the TM on the obverse.

TKissinger

Billy,
I also have a KS98 with Höller on the obverse and W. Linsenmaier, Ulm distributor on the reverse.

Heh, seems I'm way off base with that thought

SS BAYONET

I agree with the observations made by FROGPRINCE. The Art Deco style runes are definitelly different. I have not seen them used on any bayonet or sword that I have observed but that does not mean that they are not original.

Richard Kuchta

does anyone know where i can get them to etch an original ks 98 with ss stuff?

Hello Everyone,can someone tell me if this one is original,thanks in advance,Regards nats

http://www.militaria321.com/auction_details.cfm?auctionID=5150040

Stan,

I think you'd need pictures with much better detail, particularly with respect to the etch corners and grip rivets. But with respect to what I see, I think it's probably not a period etch. And the price is a little to justify getting it just for the oddity factor. Just MHO though.

Hello Billy G. thanks for your help.I'am very wary of anything on the Militariaweb site,as most of it seems to be repro's,Thats the best photos I could get,and as you say the price is a bit high if its not right. Regards stan

From the Nazi exposed web page;

“The Sig Rune also know as the Siegel rune, is an ancient symbol which symbolize the Goddess of Victory. It is the most common and widely recognizable SS unit insignia. The SS Sig Runes design was created in 1931 when Walter Heck, A Sturmfuhrer in the SS, drew two Sig Runes side by side and noticed the similarity to the initials of the SS. For 2.5 Reichsmarks, Heck sold the right of the Sig Runes to the SS and the runes were quickly adopted as the insignia of the Schutzstaffel and became one of the most common used forms of SS unit insignia. Today this symbol is still being frequently used by neo-Nazis.

The SS was a large paramilitary organization which was organized and controlled by the Nazi party. The SS was regarded as an elite unit, where all personnel were selected on racial and ideological grounds. This group distinguished from other German military branches in the military. Nazi party and German state, by their own ranks, insignia and uniforms.

The SS were divided in several branches, a fighting unit called Waffen-SS were notorious for their participation in enforcing Nazi policies which often constituted war crimes and crimes against humanity. Other departments within the SS were Reichssicherheitshauptamt (Reich Security Head Office), the Gestapo, Sicherheitsdienst (SD), Einsatzgruppen, and the Concentration Camp service known as the SS-Totenkopfverbande (SS-TV). “


To those who asked questions and posted their thoughts on this forum I would like to answer them with my own experiences of what happened with this post on my part. I stated earlier that I was aware there was always curiosity and criticism. I have had a couple of eye openers with this post that I had never thought of. I will go over them and with explanations I have uncovered checking out the questions that went through my mind as they came about. Understand that I play no part of being and expert. I am a collector and I find out just like others by living and learning.

The article above states the design was created in 1931 and notes many other departments within the SS. It would seem possible that it had variation with this many different groups along the way and it was in the years of the Art Deco period so this might be an explanation for this particular design. I had never looked at a SS emblem closely but now notice there is slight differences about them and their usage.

Terry noted that the SS bayonet engraving did not cover the fuller completely toward the tip. On the third bayonet down from that picture the etching goes way outside of the fuller. I do not have any information on how they do the etchings.

Fred’s questions made me look and look again. I have never pulled a leather washer back on a bayonet before he mentioned the gap. I can tell you I have pulled back many and I am posting pictures to show this is a quite common occurrence.

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For those who asked about the rivets I will let that subject up to the rivet masters as I have looked at about 400 and know as much about them now as when I started.