UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum LUFTWAFFE SURVIVAL MACHETE - ALCOSO

Finally this Nm condition early type of an orginal Luftwaffe machete lands into my collection.
Alcoso scales ACS trademark.
Grip hilt made of brass.
Blued scabbard. Dark & nice.

This pictured machete have also full 100% provience from Norway on the west coast where the Germans served during wartime in a Airport there they have base.
The pre owner of this machete was a Police shef in that town in the war. When he died about 15 years ago the family sell some of the stuff he taken from the Germans. Include a nice orginal SS helmet with history to the user and a few SD / SS things + NS Police tag and this machete.
The machete have in the past 10-12 years been into a collection in Norway.
I remember that day i see this machete first time many years ago. I was in the Gunshop where the dealer get this in. I hold it in hands and have "no clue" of its rarity at all.
The dealer sold it after only few days that time. The time has gone and ..... Now its in my collection. ( the world are small)


This types of machetes was carried aboard the He 111 Heinkel 111 Bombers serving on the Eastern Front. And may other planes?
The Machete was an organic component of a large survival kit carried aboard the aircraft.
Used by the Luftwaffe.
I bealive some of the German planes landing here on the westcoast , are sending troops to Murmansk for the Eastfront. Im quite sure this Machete was one of the items the Policeman get hands of when he served near the base ?

Here it is .
Enjoy the pics

Regards LH 600

All more further information about machetes are welcomed. Very few info to find out there of such machetes.








HE 111

...Now that's a knife! nice one 600!

Wow! That is indeed a wonderful early example of the Luft Survival Machette. Love the brass with the blued scabbard.
Congrats LH on a great piece of Luft Bomber survival equipment.
On the longer range bombers that these were issued with my understanding is that they also had a Drilling Shotgun in a neat Luft case on board so if a crew got downed they could hunt for game while the they worked their way back to the front.

Man...those were the days.

Regards,
-serge-

Beauty!

A great new adddition to your wonderful collection.
Congrats !

LH:

Great find! And a very hard to find item in fantastic shape.


John

While I really can't tell for sure from the images posted. The trademark on the machete seems to look quite a bit like the one on my friends. Which now has a few minor storage marks from over the years, but was never issued.

Where that might be troubling to some, is that the marking is of 1930's vintage. With at a minimum over several years, a variant and another more noticeable change used by Coppel on military type items prior to the type used on the example John posted.

(My apologies, but I had to enlarge the trademark from a fairly small old low resolution image. And the level of detail is not good, with some of it possibly being obliterated in the process.) FP

Wow, you're lucky guy, LH600. Beautiful piece that many collectors do not own. Interesting provenience too. Congratulations!

any thoughts about the used brass connected with the year of 1942+? I know them also with the crossguard made of steel that is more beloved for my taste.

Congrats on a great find,my friend

It cant be better than this one

quote:

Originally posted by Robert H.:
any thoughts about the used brass connected with the year of 1942+? I know them also with the crossguard made of steel that is more beloved for my taste.

The year is not mention here Robert.!

You can see the brass model on page 104.Volume 111 of Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich. Pages103, 104, 105

I dont have that book yet....but soon

Hi nice piece...what is the market value of such an item? cheers, Ryan

Robert, I also prefer the steel mounted machetes with the late commercial type trademark. Most often seen in all sorts of conditions as would be expected of equipment used in wartime. With sometimes seen attached to them, what looks like a tropical (webbing) type of belt frog.

As for the brass types with the 1930�s style of trademark, when my friend got his the seller had more than one for sale. Three(?), all in never used condition.

With some examples of the early style Coppel marked brass hilted machetes, you might also see added markings. With some being observed with what look like Luftwaffe acceptance or German Police or other types of markings (admittedly these are a minority).

As for the use of a restricted material in non-critical applications that is another way to look at the machetes. That probably starts best (IMO) with the early 1942 photograph in Die Woche. Which seems to possibly be at a variance with what is sometimes commonly accepted as a fact.

Posted below (borrowed from the other thread courtesy of Bret (cog-hammer): A much better image than the one I tried to enlarge of the early type Coppel commercial trademark. And a veteran acquired green DAK tropical type web belt frog with its 1942 dated bayonet. The frog is the same kind of green color usually seen with the extra large machete sized belt frogs. Regards FP

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
Robert, I also prefer the steel mounted machetes with the late commercial type trademark. Most often seen in all sorts of conditions as would be expected of equipment used in wartime. With sometimes seen attached to them, what looks like a tropical (webbing) type of belt frog.

As for the brass types with the 1930�s style of trademark, when my friend got his the seller had more than one for sale. Three(?), all in never used condition.

With some examples of the early style Coppel marked brass hilted machetes, you might also see added markings. With some being observed with what look like Luftwaffe acceptance or German Police or other types of markings (admittedly these are a minority).

As for the use of a restricted material in non-critical applications that is another way to look at the machetes. That probably starts best (IMO) with the early 1942 photograph in Die Woche. Which seems to possibly be at a variance with what is sometimes commonly accepted as a fact.

Posted below (borrowed from the other thread courtesy of Bret (cog-hammer): A much better image than the one I tried to enlarge of the early type Coppel commercial trademark. And a veteran acquired green DAK tropical type web belt frog with its 1942 dated bayonet. The frog is the same kind of green color usually seen with the extra large machete sized belt frogs. Regards FP

FP

What are you really trying too tell us about the machetes ?

Are all FAKES in your opinions ?
Who bring this Machete into Norway during the war then ?

Hello. I haven't been posting much recently, but I followed this post over from WAF. Are we going to discuss the colors of a black and white photo again?

I don't know of any other additional markings besides the police E/B. Has a LW one been recorded? A German site has re-addressed the South American connection that was supposedly the post-WWII destination of these blades. The German site notes these blades were 1930s production that never went to South and Central American, but were "appropriated" for official German usage.

I'll post this link here for Fred, its a bit larger and you guys feel free to steal it if you want for your e-files. I cant say for sure how long I'll leave the link for a year or so I'm sure. And I dont think anyone is drawing conclusions here, its all really subjective, no one I know of has mounds of data on these things. I would think that if we find period tagged and bagged daggers then Minty "luft machetes" exist. Brass or steel mounted. I have seen minty examples with pitted scabbards, That seems to be a big thing on these weapons, the pitted rusty scabbards. mine is no exception! i did not pay a fantastic ammount for mine. I cant see paying 2k plus for one. maybe the rarity of these would make them worth that i dont know. I would think that maybe horse drawn units may have had these or even Eng. units but I really dont know. Mine has the police type stamp on it but I dont know of anyone with a period reference to the police using them???? Maybe in a photo album somewhere a photo is waiting...undiscovered. So we have a guessing game and thats it. Fred is going with what he knows and is taking the logical approach. Thats all any of us can do.
Bret Van Sant
http://www.militaryedgedweapons.com/eb1a.jpg

I bought my first one - the one pictured in Johnson's book- twenty five years ago plus the Die Woche magazine. I wanted the police proof. I found another two years later or so at the second St Louis Max Show. It was another police acceptance one. The police Flieger-Staffel cooperated closely with the LW with equipment. While they did not use the Heinkel 111 that was pictured in the Die Woche article with the photo of the machete in the winter surival kit, the police did use other large three engine and two engine planes for courier and supply duties, in Norway and in the East, among other theaters.So, if the LW issued emergency equipment fot the planes, I would presume Himmler would be sure that his pilots would be afforded the same safety measures.

Joe, that's makes good sense, here is a shot, no sunlight today overcast all day!!
forgive the Krag also,it was getting oiled
Bret Van Sant

I don�t know about currently, but in the past I don�t think getting things in and out of Norway was that hard or a one way street. I have a friend who sold and traded hard to find guns with collectors in Scandinavia over a period of years. And I�ve gotten blades from from Norway myself in the past with no problems, but have never tried to reverse the process. As for the subject of provenance please see my comments on the other thread as regards the topic in general - with the understanding that I�m not making a judgement.

To the best of my recollection, I�ve personally looked at over time I�m thinking somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 to 10 of the unissued or virtually new early trademark brass ones, mostly on the West Coast. Versus I think perhaps half or less that number of the late trademarked steel ones in varying condition. My overall experience in collecting a variety of things has been that with early items they tend to get used up first in the normal course of events. Whereas late items are closer to new. And in some cases seem to have never been issued at all. With the exception of some of the new postings of brass examples which show some of the effects common to less than optimal use/treatment - why the seeming reversal???

As for the black and white photos. Strangely enough - a while back I did some test shots in direct sunlight to see what I could see. The results have not substantially changed my point of view that there might be some room for a reinterpretation of the original Luftwaffe Machete photograph. It�s not proof, but I just could not get the same representative values of the original photograph to replicate.

I�ve seen Luftwaffe, and to the best of my recollection one other type of marking on the brass hilted machetes. Zero additional markings on the steel types. If I understand it correctly: Coppel had a warehouse or some other place where it was storing unsold machetes? Machetes which did not go to England with Luftwaffe aircraft when that front opened up. But did go to Norway with German Police aircraft in or close to April of 1940. With subsequent general issues to Luftwaffe bombers in (possibly) June of 1941 as a part of the invasion of Russia, or maybe a little later as seems to be suggested by the photograph? Is there a link to the German site on the �South and/or Central American� connection or connections for the machetes? I would be interested in seeing just what they are basing their statements on.

PS: Danny Trejo es el hombre con el machete del modelo U.S.N MK 2. FP

Very interesting reading Frogprinze .

Here is a link to some info of SOLA AIRPORT During the war.
The Machete came from there...

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=4828







Airborne assault on Sola Airfield 1940

by Erik Ettrup



Sola airfield was the newest and most modern airfield in Norway 1940. It was built in 1937 and was the only airfield in south-western Norway with concrete runways. This airport represented a very valuable objective during the Weser�bung. The distance to Scapa Flow is only 500 km. This meant that Sola could be used as a base for attacking the northern parts of Great Britain.



The following facts tell how the first airborne assault in history was carried out:

At 05:30 in the morning 9.April 1940, 12 lonely Ju 52 from 7./KGzbv1 left the airfield at Stade in Germany.

Onboard were 135 paratroopers from 3./FJR1. 10 minutes later, 53 more Ju52, carrying 2 companies from 193. Infanterie-Regiment of 69. Infanterie-division and 2 companies of Luftwaffe ground personell, followed.

The distance to Sola is 630 km and the flying time was estimated to 3 hours and 12 minutes. They were not allowed to fly over Denmark, as the attack there would be carried out as they passed.



12 Ju88 left the airfield at L�nebeck. Their mission was to reach Sola at the same time as the paratroopes. 8 Me110 from 3/ZG76 left Sylt a bit later. Their mission was to provide air support for the paratroopers. For the Messerschmitts, this was a one way ticket, as their fueltanks didn`t allowe them to get back.

Their destiny was in the hands of the paratroopers...

51 more Ju52`s left Utersum at 08:00. They were carrying I/193 Infanterie-Regiment.



The 12 first Ju52 met heavy fog in Skagerak. They wanted to turn, but knew if they didn`t take the airport, the following troops would be in great danger. They decided to continue, and only 100 km from the coast, they were again able to see the ocean. The formation was spread over a wide area, so they circled for a few minutes to wait for the rest.

Only 11 planes had made it trough the fog (the last had landed in Denmark).



The 8 Me 110 got more serious problems. 2 of the planes crashed into each other, and Oberleutnant Gollob decided to abort the mission. When they landed in Denmark, only 4 planes were left. The last two had not heard the radiomessage and had continued to Sola.

Due to all these reports of bad weather, General Hans Geisler decided to call back all planes. The paratroopers heading for Oslo (exept 4) and Trondheim turned, but the message was not recived by the forces bound for Sola.

The 11 Junkers were getting low on fuel. They were 45 minutes delayed and didn`t know exactly where they were.

Suddenly the 2 Me 110 joined the formation, and they hit shore just south of the airport. The flight towards the airport was drilled on scale models in Germany, so Hauptmann Capito knew exactly where he should go.



Meanwhile the 8 Ju88 had started their attack on the airport. Most of the Norwegian planes were destroyed on the ground, the rest escaped, as their planes were too old to take up the fight. The Junkers were ordered northwards to help a German merchantman which were under attack by a Norwegian destroyer. The 2 Me 110 strafed the airport at 10 meters above the ground. The Nowegian soldiers on the airfield fired all their weapons until they got so hot that they jammed.

Suddenly the 11 Ju 52 were over the airport. All 135 paratroopers lead by Oberleutnant Freiherr Von Brandis jumped out within seconds. The Norwegians thought they were getting bombed and escaped from most of the positions near the runway. The paratroopers gathered and opened heavy fire against the Norwegian forces.

The Norwegian Commander gave orders to withdraw from the airfield. Some of the Norwegian soldiers took the commanders car and drove off! In the end of the runway some Norwegian soldiers gathered around the only pillbox present at the airfield. They opened heavy fire on the German forces but were soon silenced by a German handgrenade.

The first of the 53 Junkers with I./193. Infanterie-Regiment reached the airport. The first planes to land were set under heavy Norwegian fire. The Ju88s returned after sinking the Norwegian ship, and opened fire on the remaining Norwegians. The Norwegian commander decided to surrender the airport, as it seemed hopless to fire on the planes with rifles and machineguns.



The German fire stopped at once when they saw the white flag. Oberleutnant Freiherr Von Brandis came over and saluted the Norwegian commander. The Norwegian commander gave his pistol to Brandis, but he returned it immediately. 90 Norwegian soldiers surrendered, and they were ordered to tear down the fences to prepare for a massive airborne landing. Within the first day, 2000 soldiers were transferred to Sola.

180 bombers and fighters were also brought in from Germany.

The first airborne assault in history was a fact.



German losses:

18 soldiers from 3./FJR1 killed in ground combat, ca. 30 wounded.

2 Me110 crashed in air

3 Ju 52 from 7/KG zbv 104 crashed during take-off in Germany.

2 Ju52 from KG zbv 106 lost over Skagerak

1 HE59 crashed during landing

1 Ju87 Crashed during landing

1 He111 crashed during landing

Thanks for the posting, and the link! That is some very interesting reading by itself.

On the other forum that was mentioned a little earlier, while the link made no sense (to me at least) as regards specifics. I did see a statement where (if I got it correctly) all brass machetes were for use by the �Polizei Flieger-Staffel�?? Also mentioning a non-specific South American connection.

And I saw from Tom Johnson who wrote the book: �Thank you for your reply. To the best of my knowledge, only the Luftwaffe units used the Luftwaffe machete�.

If nothing else, perhaps some new period information will come forward to help resolve the matter. I know that it made my friend crazy trying to find something that was authoritative, not speculative. And he eventually gave up. Regards, FP

I am not sure if the story about a warehouse of unused blades is a red herring or not. If the machetes were manufactured pre 1945 and not used, they would still be as relevant as finding a dagger in a uniform shop or in a manufacturer show room. They would be collectible, but in very good shape, right?

Unless we are saying that certain configurations of this machete were only manufactured after the war. If that were the case, and the intent was to deceive, wouldn't there be a lot more of these floating around the collecting and dealer network?

To the best of my recollection, the one shown by LH was the 4th one that I have seen in the past 3 years. The other 3 are the one in my collection, one on Maederer's site and a blade only on Johnson's site.

As to prices, the ones I have seen have ranged from $2 to $4k.

John

My mistake, the one on Johsnson's site sold for 2,495 and is still listed there, as sold. It has the ACS mark. And a scabbard.

John

Hauers in general were cheap and plentiful from 1940-1944 in Germany. After the U-boat war it wasn't possible to export these any longer. They were so plentiful and cheap, young boys played Wild West with them. Maybe that's what happened to them all.

John, I�ve got to roll out of here in a few minutes so I��m going to try and be brief. Somebody can correct me if I�m wrong, but the one that Tom Johnson just sold was steel mounted not brass. And I don�t ever recall seeing a steel mounted machete with other than the late Coppel marking.

What some of what Joe Wotka said was: �The German site notes these blades were 1930s production that never went to South and Central American, but were "appropriated" for official German usage.� That seems to imply to me more than just a few examples. And given the size of Luftwaffe forces in the East. And the extremely low survival rate of Russian front items in general. My �warehouse� comment was my effort to show that for as many to have survived both here and in Europe. And in the excellent condition that many of them seem to be in. That there had to be quite a few that were manufactured.

I would agree that the Germans did on occasion expropriate war material. Like some of the 1941 contract Portuguese rifles, but that arguably was the direct result of horrendous losses of arms and men in Russia (interestingly some are specifically marked to the Luftwaffe). I also don�t want to get into a big discussion of either Atwood or some of the postwar assemblies of parts. But I personally don�t put them into the same category as legitimate leftover stock - even if original parts were used. (Mentioning that possibility because that is one of the things that I was told.)

And in my humble opinion, it might be a misperception to assume that what you see now is all there is to be found. Talk to any of the old-timers. And they will tell you what used to very common - is no longer the case. And it�s been that way for some years now. Which I also know first hand from my own experience collecting. With even many of the decent condition more common items becoming hard to find.

PS to Mikee: Kind of a �un muchacho con un machete" but with a German accent? That works for me . Regards to All, FP

Hey FP, I can't remember on what forum we compared black and white photos in our discussion of these blades. Yes, that was me. The brass fitting/police connection from the German site might be perhaps a misinterpretation of my post in the German language. I wrote that some of the machetes with brass fittings are found with police acceptance marks.

I agree that there is no source documentation of the use of the blades by the police forces. It is all circumstantial. We may disagree as to whether the Die Woche photo featured a brass or steel fitted machete, but we cannot disagree that the type of blade was used in LW airplane emergency kits. I know the police operated their Flieger-Staffel in close cooperation with the LW. They used multi-engine planes. Whether they were equipped with survival kits is theory. Why all the minty machetes? Perhaps the idea behind them. They were packed away in boxed kits to be used in emergencies. And there they remained.

Many of us search for collecting examples in the finest condition that can be found: guns, daggers, uniforms. A minty machete means it was never used. If the plane never went down, the box was never opened.

Very interesting meanings here
Thats fine.

I speak with the man getting this machete into his gunshop first time today, on phone.
He has been into the house where this machete was. The pre policeman had taken severals things from the Luftwaffe and SS personel. There was also a SOE Sweetheart small transmitter there.SD / NS and other nice stuff.

Around the SOLA airport during the war , there was a lot of personel from the LW.
The SS helmet in the house i mention before had a history and named Tag inside the helmet too Its a well know SS figur in that town. He work under several names and speak Norwegian language 100% for infiltrade the Resistance group members.
here he is :
SS-Hauptscharf�hrer
Friedrich Albert Lappe


Im glad i get hands of this machete with all the info i have.

Like i have sayed before..."I wish it could talk"

Hi JWOTKA

You wrotes :
Why all the minty machetes? Perhaps the idea behind them. They were packed away in boxed kits to be used in emergencies. And there they remained.

Many of us search for collecting examples in the finest condition that can be found: guns, daggers, uniforms. A minty machete means it was never used. If the plane never went down, the box was never opened.
------
You have a point there . I have the same opinions. If the Survival kit neves was in use and the items lay there as found. These Machetes and other gun related equipment is in exellent shape ....if you are lucky to find the things.

Regards LH

LH600 you have a excellent LW machete with genuine provenience which makes the peice so much better this will look great in your cabinet with your other minty daggers .....Cheers Mate....Scott.

Thanks Scott. Im glad you like it.

Later i will make a Luftwaffe stand with all of mine Luft daggers displayed.

This figur will fit in good ?

Joe, I remember the discussion and it was on a forum not yet mentioned here. From what I seemed to be finding through experimentation by using a grayscale conversion, it wasn�t steel versus brass. But brass versus aluminum. Wondering if perhaps the Luftwaffe was doing some experimentation - as seen with a quite a few other items during the time of the Third Reich?

Attached is one of the machetes just posted along with some additional reference examples to give a perspective. BTW: Instead of the aluminum Luftwaffe crossguard I used last time. Here I purposely used a piece of satin/brush finished aluminum sheet metal stock. To try and minimize the reflected light as much as was possible. Everyone can be their own judge as to what the images do or don�t show.

As for: �Why all the minty machetes? Perhaps the idea behind them. They were packed away in boxed kits to be used in emergencies. And there they remained.�

I�m OK with that to explain a number of different things that we see in collecting in general. But it still fails to explain I think why there are not a comparable (or maybe even greater) number of �minty� steel mounted Luftwaffe machetes in circulation as compared to the �minty� brass ones. Ordinarily you would think that the �new kids on the block� would be in better condition than the old issue items - that would or should have gone to the Russian front first. FP

Reference example in direct sunlight trying to imitate (as much as I could) the original photograph in Die Woche. FP

A closeup.

No Fred, I thought the black and white exercise was to determine if the photo in Die Woche was a piece with steel or brass fittings.

As for Tom Johnson's comment about LW machetes only being used by the LW... Trouble is, the "LW" machete he pictured in Vol III (or was it IV?) that was shown with the Die Woche LW photo was not "LW" marked. It was the E/B brass fitting machete owned by Jerry Drake (that I later bought with the magazine). Tom didn't know what a police acceptance stamp was or didn't care when he was assembling his "edited" book. Remember that many people wrote Tom's books. I was one of them- police chapter in Vol IV. So that kind of reduces his comment to meaningless. And there was one other photo of a machete shown-a minty blued version in the frog. But the trademark and blade were never shown. It was owned by Pat Caldwell.

I know you have had reservations about these brass variations with police acceptance.And again I repeat the the period documentation of these is nil. I accepted them as original because of my study of the police Flieger-Stafel and the rather sudden and early appearance of them to collectors.

Joe, I�ll have to see if I can find the thread to be absolutely 100 % sure, but my recollection is that it was aluminum. I think that I used your (?) �Die Woche� image for at least one of the postings, as well as one posted by someone else that was not as clear. Here (minus the �Die Woche� image) is part of what I posted using the aluminum crossguard as a visual reference.

I understand what you are saying about Tom Johnson, and he has some things in some of the books that would not stand up to close inspection today. I�m not slamming him, just making the observation that sometimes mistakes are made, and I�ve made my share at one time or another. And a lack of documentation for some things has been something that has plagued collectors since long before I started - no argument there!!

If you recall the thread there was an Eagle/B German Police marked SS Leader�s Sword that came into the discussion at some point. There is also a Waffenamted version, but I don�t remember offhand if I posted it there or not. Both were fakes.

I looked into the timing of the Police markings a little bit back then but got distracted for some reason or other. Do you have a date when the Flieger-Stafel was put into operation with aircraft? I'm headed out again. Best Regards, FP

I do not understand the South/Central American connection for either pre-war or post-war use of these machetes. Why would such a relatively costly (brass/thick steel blade/steel scabbard) production piece be considered for export to cut sugar cane in the tropics when cheaper examples were available at least ten years earlier? These "cultivation knives" cost RM 14,75 with wood handle, 33cm blade 5.5cm wide and leather scabbard.

Here is another Machete own by a collector i know.
This first was obtained in a cased M-30 Luft Sauer drilling

And a close up of the markings


And finally, the really tough portion of this grouping: the scabbard with its original frog!




here on with a very unusual crossguard to ?
Note the different in the shape of tipsection .



Fred :
Are you telling me my Machete is a Fake ?
The story where it came from is 100% correct.
If you dont bealive me i can work with a 100% sertificate from the family. But anyway i now for sure & and that is good enougth for me

This machete i have pictured first in the tread is 100% orginal. I dont think the LW personell takes fakes one into Norway during the war.

Do you have any Machete in your collection to share pics of ?

Regards LH

Hello LH,
What a beautiful piece for your collection. I have read your description of it's provinance and there can be no doubt, in my humble opinion, but that your machette is original pre war.
I almost makes me want to start collecting Machettes.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by Jim W:
Hello LH,
What a beautiful piece for your collection. I have read your description of it's provinance and there can be no doubt, in my humble opinion, but that your machette is original pre war.
I almost makes me want to start collecting Machettes.

Jim

Great to hear some good "warm" words Jim

Now the Machete is hangin in front of me . I look at the "Big huge machete" now in this moment....and i can "feel" it have something more to tell me

All the best LH

LH600, If nothing else your thread has given me the push I needed to seek out and acquire some new, not open to subjective interpretation, information which I did not have before. For which I Thank You !

As I think I commented on earlier, I don�t have a problem with the steel mounted machetes (with or without saw backs). All I can do is tell you what I�ve been told. What I�ve seen at various times and places. And my opinion as regards some of the specific issues. Such as trademarks (and finishes) by looking at known examples of commercially marked Coppel blades. And to a certain extent by comparing them to dated Wehrmacht issues, etc.

If I�ve expressed concern it�s because I�ve seen far too many guys get taken advantage of over a period of years for a wide variety of reasons. With my intent being to provide my best honest opinion whether it is accepted or not.

What I or anyone else thinks is irrelevant if you are happy. Your happiness is what counts, and I hope you enjoy your new acquisition. Best Regards, FP

PS to Joe: Postwar - it�s hard to say. You see all the stories about Atwood and later, and the parts pieces. So even though the Germans at first had arms restrictions imposed on them, I don�t think it affected blade makers. Who knows? As for prewar, I�m having second thoughts about that myself. While the thought of the Germans stopping shipments at the end of 1939 after Poland was invaded. Because they were afraid of British battleships sinking helpless merchant ships filled with machetes has a certain cachet. But I'm afraid that the timing seems a little off.

What seems I think to be another possibility are prewar shipments to Portugal. A very active customer of, and supplier to Germany and its industry (also having fairly extensive colonies in East and West Africa if I�m not mistaken). With as I�m certain you already know. German industry shipping all sorts of arms and other things to Portugal over a period of years. And some of the (re) imports of those items from Portugal to here were in new or near new condition. With perhaps just the barest hint of a storage problem, or sometimes virtually nothing amiss. I don�t know if machetes were included or not - but it might be worth checking out.

Fred,I posted the period advertisement above to point out what I believe is overkill on these machetes. The machetes available for cultivation work were 5-10 cm shorter than the "survival" machetes and they were produced cheaper.Again I ask, why would anyone go to the trouble of ordering the brass fixture blades, or the steel ones, with steel scabbards, for cultivation purposes, when you had the shorter, cheaper version available at about RM 15,- with a leather scabbard? I don't think it economically logical to think these "survival" machetes were exported anywhere.

As to the question of whether the police used emergency supplies on their Flieger-Staffel planes, there is documentation that the police were ordering survival drillings from J.P. Sauer & Sons during the war. The drilling was a component of the survival kit. Ergo, the police provided survival kits on their multi-engine planes.

Hey Guys!
I dont know if you can see this or not maybe you need to sign up over at Jan's forum???
I had not looked there for a while but remembered the thread on these not much info but may wet your whistle a bit!!! The fellow shows the axe also.
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=3056
Also... while we are heating the grill on this stuff here. I'm a pistol collector but never into the drillings. Joe, were the drillings found with the police mark Eagle B???
I also got an email yesterday from a fellow whos said at some "military interest" forum??I think was the name he gave me?? I can look again if someone wants, anyway they had some postings on this subject. I have no desire to join yet another forum!! maybe some one here knows of that place?
Bret Van Sant

Joe,
I was very remiss in leaving out part of my thinking. Which your observations helped to bring into a little better focus for me. Thanks.

At one time I was actively collecting U.S military machetes. I never managed to get all of them which was OK because I was more interested in the WW II variety. They ranged from about 26� blades to 18� with the folders down to about 10�. So length to me doesn't have as much relevance.

�Overkill� I think is relative. By German standards U.S machetes had very flimsy scabbards. Oftentimes just folded canvas. U.S bayonets were better, but still plastic which could break, which is something that happened to very large numbers of them. Period U.S hiking and utility knives had leather scabbards, as did commando knives etc. Whereas the Germans in that era seem to have never developed the same kind of mind set. Highly valuing steel scabbards for just about everything. And one of the possibilities that I had in mind was something that was more of a machete designed for military or possibly paramilitary personnel in the colonies or elsewhere.

I have multiple examples of German export versions of bayonets (markings and/or finish only - identical construction) for both Spain and Portugal in new or near new condition. And a not so nice one that still seems to be a little bit of a mystery to me as to who the customer might have been. So it�s not unreasonable IMO to reverse that. And assume that an an export model of a machete for military or paramilitary use could have been adopted by the Luftwaffe when the need arose. There are many conversions of preexisting products to military use - sometimes used old stock parts to get production going. So I really don�t have a problem with some of the seemingly well used brass examples getting into the hands of the troops for the purposes of testing or general use. Having a few German �trials� examples myself which were never adopted for mass production. That�s why the idea of a possibly aluminum hilted �trials� machete occurred to me when I was looking at the Die Woche picture. With the steel examples of course being the final versions.

Where I�m having a problem is that I�ve seen way too many �minty� brass machetes versus almost zero steel ones. Those are the numbers I�ve seen and it just does not seem to add up. I�m not ruling out anything, but wondering if a possible postwar importation of surplus machetes has skewed the numbers. (Which is also why I seem to have seen a fair number of ex-Portuguese bayonets that now have been magically transformed overnight into �SS� bayonets.)

I also don�t really have a problem with the German Police having its own Flieger-Staffel or mini - air force. My question was more directed to an approximate time as to its creation if you have an idea when. Or even your best guess trusting your judgement. The folding shovels seem to be a part of the survival kit irrespective of packaging. What I�m wondering is how the drilling would fit? And wouldn't it have gotten banged around like all of the other stuff (machete, shovel etc.) that was thrown together? Or was it separately protected? I�m not questioning that it was ordered or included. I�m just trying to figure out how they protected it, especially the barrel. Have a recollection of a fitted case - but not sure how they got it all to fit together for aircraft use.

PS to Bret: Thanks for the link I started out as pistol collector myself. After that I�m not quite sure what happened.

The machete from what I can see looks OK. In the past I�ve had some military issue axes but I don�t really know them. That said, the axe seems to be OK also but that is just a guess.
Best Regards to you both, Fred

quote:

Originally posted by cog-hammer:
Hey Guys!
but may wet your whistle a bit!!! The fellow shows the axe also.
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=3056
Also... while we are heating the grill on this stuff here. I'm a pistol collector but never into the drillings. Joe, were the drillings found with the police mark Eagle B???
I also got an email yesterday from a fellow whos said at some "military interest" forum??I think was the name he gave me?? I can look again if someone wants, anyway they had some postings on this subject. I have no desire to join yet another forum!! maybe some one here knows of that place?
Bret Van Sant

Hi Bret.
That machete on the Lugerforum have 7 "grooved" lines in the grip.
My machete & John`s have 8.

Here is Johns machete below.


Here is mine


and here is the luftmachete from the Luger forum.

You see the difference very easy. And the shape of the crossguards end`s is not exactly matched the two others.

I guess i always leave out stuff too Fred
I will "guess" that the picture shown from the luger forum is a steel hilted variant, Also.. I have looked in my old reference books, These are called "the museum of historical arms" they are actually a sales catalog. Mayby some of the ol school colletors remember these? anyway, they were printed about once a month in the 50's and later. I see no reference to these machetes being offered for sale. I will offer this tid bit about items that "we" think are not imported from other sources. A group of us pistol collectors got together and ordered factory letters for our Norwegian made Colt .45's
I was amamzed that a factory letter could be had for a german occupied war time gun(this is the only case I know of!!) So began to research the history of the gun and how these guns ended up in the USA. To save the long version here... I ran into a collector at a local show who had one of the occupation made guns. We discussed the hows and whys and the rare chance a US vet could capture this gun, it could have happened so I wont say never, but in the late 50's or very early 1960's a group of these guns were brought into the US before the current import laws, and sold a 59.99 usd. So for me its possible to asume that SOME of the minty and even some of the well used machetes we see were imported in small numbers. Maybe in some period catalog from back in the day we will see machetes of this type listed for sale. Another of my thoughts on my dime!!
Bret Van Sant

Bret:
The Kongsberg Gun factory have information on nearly all made KV Colts M 1914.
KV Colts made under the German are marked WaA 84
I have two factory letters. one for a KC Colt M 1914 the other for a US M 1911 from the Norwegian contract. US send 350 Colts to Norway to the Marine in 1915.50 in spread numbers. ( 400 total)
This letter is signed K. Hoyt

---------
Over to the Machetes .... again

I have read this tread with keen eye and have my opinions.
The first i will say is MY machete is found where i have written in my tread IMO.

> Why should this machete not laying there ?
> The evidence & provience is 100%

I am sure of this case-.
The Machete is 100% orginal and period for the makers mark.
The only we collector dont know yet......is :There does not seem to be any documents on the quantities produced.

A other Luftwaffe collector say this in a mail adressed me :

There are at least 4 models of the Machete:
1. Steel Crossguard painted Black;

2. Brass Crossguard and Cap painted Black;

3. Brass Crossguard and Cap unpainted.

4. Machete with Sawtooth spine and it can be in either steel or brass crossguard and cap. Also, not all machetes were ordnance marked. Toward the end of the war shortcuts were taken to save money and expedite manufacturing.

The world is "still going on" & the information we seek is out there folks Of that reason a am a Eadged Weapons Collector

Its fun !�
Regards LH

This has been a very interesting discussion, both pros and cons. I understand everyone's viewpoints. Very good.

Fred, we know the LW M-30 drilings were issued intact in large well constructed cases containing ammo and supplies. Examples of these exist. Whether they were use on board planes is another story. No photo evidence exits of them on a plane or being removed from one, no on board storage instructions. The machetes would presumably be included in the wooded Emergency Supplies case shown in the Die Woche photo.

I have three machetes. The brass one first shown in Johnson's book, bought 25 years ago or so, another bought a year or two later and the steel one bought off a German auction about eight years ago. The steel version is AWS scales with Alcoso name next to logo running parallel to the blade and the brass ones are ACS scale with Alcoso above logo perpendicular to the blade right under the cross guard with police E/B acceptance below.

LH600, Maybe you should find out from the family if they know just how the police chief got the machete? Just because the man had the items in his possession does not mean that he could not have acquired some or all of them anytime in his career. From possibly a wide range of sources instead of at an air base at the end of the war? (I�m not saying that it happened, just presenting a possibility as you will see below.)

A case in point. I once acquired a Luger pistol and holster from a police officer I knew. He said that every once in a while he might be given something, or be able to buy an item. The pistol and holster had been given to him gratis a week or so earlier after a lady�s husband passed away. And she did not want them in her home. I kept the holster which was the wrong type for the pistol, and the Luger went to a gentlemen in Alaska that I think Joe might know (Don R)? When and how did her husband get the pistol and holster? Was it during the war? Did he buy it from somebody after the war? Who knows? So far the primary information seems to be from a gun shop owner unless I missed something, and a followup has already been done.

As for the grooves in the wood if they are cut by hand I usually don�t get all that excited because workers can make errors, or get careless. Much more interesting IMO is the wood itself. Sometimes helping to identify the maker and/or time period. Below is a small selection of some examples by various makers from an old thread (I don�t remember offhand if Coppel is represented in the group). Of all the brass handled machetes that I�ve seen to date. I think that I like the wood on John�s machete the best as being more representative - which most admittedly is a subjective evaluation on my part and via internet. (His machete with the late style trademark was also the primary focus of my earlier comment regarding a possible restarting of production.) On my �to do� list: It seems that the next time I visit my friend I�ll have to remember to look at the wood on his machete more closely.

As for the "other Luftwaffe collector's" list it�s interesting to see what he has observed. But a factory painted handle? Not from any period maker that I have seen. Whatever happened to bluing (black oxide)? What I did find very interesting was the reference to a brass handled saw back. I�ve never seen one of those. And ordnance marks (the Luftwaffe acceptance stamp)? Does he have any pictures?

Joe, I�ve seen pictures of the gun being used in recreational shooting, but like you not in an aircraft (survival) setting. And as you may or may not already know, they did not always use boxes. And I�m trying to imagine a drilling broken down into something not much longer than a folding shovel. I also seem to recall something about �survival guns� being the rational for the Luftwaffe buying the guns. But with them instead really being used to provide fresh game �for the table� at the air bases. Something else to look into if there was not enough already.

Bret, It looks like steel to me also. My friend called the catalogs �The Museum of Hysterical Arms�. If you think about it a minute everything here was imported. By a G.I., an importer/dealer, or a collector. (Everyone please note: This a general comment, and I�m thinking at moment more about certain small knives.) Where it gets really nasty is with some of these postwar creations or modified originals which are sold to guys for significant dollars. Which I understand the "Museum of Hysterical Arms� was sometimes guilty of doing. With guys who thought that they are getting something that was a legitimate period artifact. Because they were told so by the seller. And it's not something happening just now, or in the last 10 or 20 years. With some items it goes back at least into the 1950's. Oh well ........

My Best Regards to All, Fred

There is a good thread about the M-30 Drillings on the WAF. The boxes are marked M-30 Drilling and include manuals and accessories. But the only connection to survival and carrying on aircraft are the comments of Adolf Galland reported in the 1979 article on the drillings by Joe Buffer.

The time frame of police usage for the machetes would not start until late 1941 or earlier 1942, judging from the documentation I have. Expansion of the police air arm accelerated in 1943.

This is where some of the guys who were collecting or doing gun shows and buying in the 50's would help but since this thread has carried on for a time seems they have had the chance to add 2 bits if not 2 cents! I will add the that the grip screws on my example look to be steel. And the Hysterical Arms is a funny!! Like the adding the picket pin scabbard to the Krags, that was a Bannerman's type of throw together, I still look for feedback on that from sources The small little books are a good reference for photos least to me I enjoy looking at them
I'm updating Tom J. this week on a few new tags for a reference I'll throw some of this his way see if he has new thoughts or maybe some new info. Fred; do you know of anyone with period Alcoso sales book?? or maybe anyone reading this??
Bret Van Sant

Bret, there is a reprint of the Alcoso 1937 or 1939 catalog around that was done my Reddick. I believe it is from original material and shows the ACS/Scales logo on the cover.But nothing about machetes apparently.

Many good wiews here folks.
Some thing confusing me. I know for sure some here on this forum sitting on information of such types of Machetes ,but they wont post ?

Is it only me and some other here having the Machetes in collection ?

I have getting several responces of selling the Machete already

I know something about this history i cant write on forum. If i do that i get into trouble.
Hope you understand that.
Fred : I cant contact the family because of confidencial reasons.
My source is correct 100%
Im proud of this Machete like all other German edged Weapons i have.

tomorrow 2 new daggers arriwe me Then its time to make some hot coffe and find a place for them into my glascabinet

Joe, It seems that it�s a small world indeed. I knew Joe Buffer, but not nearly as well a a few friends of mine. He was a very knowledgeable guy in a lot of areas.

As for the matter at hand I will try to keep it brief. You stated earlier: �The machetes would presumably be included in the wooded Emergency Supplies case shown in the Die Woche photo�. I don�t have a problem with that. But when I was looking at the photo trying to decide if they could put one of those metal cased Luftwaffe 1941/42 dated survival Drilling M. 30�s inside. For the first time it occurred to me that it wasn�t just a supplies case.

It was a supplies case mounted on a snow sled. With tow slings attached, and a pair of snowshoes beside it. If you�ve crash landed. And your plane is sitting in field somewhere far away in deep snow. How else would you get with point A to point B - with all your gear that you need to survive?

They didn�t need (or use) sleds in the summer. You�ve got the 1942 original, and can do a much better job of examining it to see if it might be a sled or not. Or am I completely misinterpreting the image?? Best Regards, Fred

Fred, the entire point of the article was to point out how well equipped the LW was for "winter" emergencies, as besides the spade and machete, there were snow shoes and skis on the sled. The equipment was tailored to the climate.

The Buffer article was mostly hearsay and theory as to the use of the drilling. Galland told Buffer that all many types of planes were equipped with the drilling. No mention of whether the case was included.

Joe, That may well have been the case but it's too far outside my primary areas of interest to make any judgements. Like a lot of guys, Joe Buffer dealt in multiple items. With one of my friends who has his own considerable expertise, he never spoke ill of Joe, so I have to assume that he was OK at least as far as their dealings were concerned. For myself, I never spoke to him about the Drillings and just offhand don�t recall the other conversations - except for one. With the one I do remember, he was waaay ahead of the curve. And was right when so many other guys were wrong.

With so few (or none at all) photographs for many items it�s very hard sometimes to find definitive answers. But there is a DAK/tropical uniform period photograph. Very likely posed, with what looks like an uncased Drilling, an aircraft MG, and 98K rifle. All loosely stacked along with some other gear beside a Stuka. But it�s focus is more of a maintenance/housekeeping setting - so its hard to judge just what is going on. And there could be a shovel and/or machete stuffed into one of the larger bags, but none is visible.

Looking at some of the known serial numbers for the quantities of Drillings made. As compared to aircraft losses (bombers, Stukas, reconnaissance). If 1941 was going to be an indicator - supply officers had their work cut out for them very early. Unfortunately for them, 1942 was even worse. And trying to acquire replacement equipment for the men that they were responsible for must have been a very unenviable assignment. Best Regards, Fred

my father told me that as a boy during the london blitz he found a boxed drilling in the wreckage of a downed aircraft after a few days of playing with it he swaped it for a pile of comics!

Nickn2, darn that's a heck of toy for young man to play with.

Fred, the photo you describe has been posted on other sites, but it features a double barrel shotgun, not a drilling. The lack of the third barrel can be seen in the photo. Buffer's article has a photo of another tropical dressed LW man apparently removing a shotgun from a plane, but the third barrel cannot be seen if it is there. Though not germane to this thread, there is drilling discussion over on the WAF.
I am not trying to put down Joe. I never met him but talked with him a few times when called asking questions about police items. That was my assessment of his 1979 article based on the fact that it included a photo of his complete cased drilling and the summation of his conversation with Galland, but no period documentation regarding the M-30. The M-30 was the commercial drilling model XXX manufactured by J.P.Sauer & Sons and adopted by the LW.

there is a autobiographical british film ,its title escapes me , in this film set during ww2 there is a school room scene where the teacher gets all the pupils who have take guns to school to bring them to the front of the class to be collected at the end of the day .my father said that happened to him on more than one occasion

Joe, Thanks for the �heads up� on the photo, and the one in the article. I�m sure it�s the same one I saw on my laptop and didn�t pay enough attention. It also lets me take the Stukas out of the equation (which were just over 20% of the total, but not materially affecting the loss ratio).

Collectors fall into different categories. Unlike yourself, I would not have put him in the category of the more serious collector/scholar. Such as Warren Odegard, and especially yourself, I don�t think he had a repository of period documentation. Best Regards, Fred

Interesting thread. Also interesting to know is that these pieces are now being reproduced and sell for only about $100.00. Not perfect repros as usual--but not too bad. Someone will hype them up a bit or use the scabbards. Better watch out for them.
IM own opinion I never was sure about the brass mounted versions and always preferred the all steel sawtooth version with the tropical type frog. Now that would bring a real premium price in minty condition.

�Here is one for sales around 3800 US
http://www.militarycollectiblesinc.com/pictures.php?file=da10012
And Gunparts later made variant 95 US.
http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=1...0&chrSuperSKU=&MC=YJ

Posting this at Tom Johnson's request:

�Dear Skipper:

I was just contacted by a collector who said I might want to read and comment on a posting by J. Wotka in a thread entitled, �Luftwaffe Survival Machete-Alcoso by LH600�. J. Wotka states, �8 0Tom didn�t know what a Police acceptance was or didn�t care when he was assembling his �edited� book. Remember that many people wrote Tom�s books. I was one of them-Police chapter in Volume IV. So that kinda reduces his comment to meaningless�.

I am not really a thin-skinned person, but my only comment to Joe Wotka after reading the above is that the actual total sales of my edged weapon reference book titles recently exceeded over 125,000 copies. It appears that the vast majority of the collecting community must find my work on German edged weapons to be very meaningful! I invite Joe to compare these sales figures with those of some other authors of current reference books on militaria subjects.

The next posting by Fred Prinz on the same thread is also interesting, �I understand what you are sayi ng about Tom Johnson, and he has some things in some of his books that would not stand up to close inspection�. I would challenge Fred to apply the same close scrutiny to any reference book that is now over 25 years old and see if the total contents are void of a single error. I think one has to take any reference publication in the proper prospective. Some time ago, I read on Germandaggers.com several individuals being critical of Jim Atwood�s reference book for showing a few reproduction daggers. Gentlemen, I have to tell you, Jim Atwood�s book, when it was published in 1965, was nothing short of a masterpiece. The only other available literature on Third Reich German daggers at the time were the scarce factory sales catalogs and the small insignificant 20-25 page pamphlets which just showed various daggers and/or drawings of daggers (some even being mislabeled). The edged weapon collecting community actually was very limited in knowledge on the subject during this timeframe due to the void in the literature. Authoring a reference book on German daggers today is really �a piece of cake� due to the vast abundance of literature available on the subject to study and to reference.&n bsp; To be critical of Jim�s book, which is now over 40 years in existence, is not to understand, in my opinion, the researching, writing, and publication process.�

My thanks, Skipper, for posting the above.

Sincerely Yours,

LTC (Ret) Thomas M. Johnson
President
Johnson Reference Books & Militaria

"As for Tom Johnson's comment about LW machetes only being used by the LW... Trouble is, the "LW" machete he pictured in Vol III (or was it IV?) that was shown with the Die Woche LW photo was not "LW" marked. It was the E/B brass fitting machete owned by Jerry Drake (that I later bought with the magazine). Tom didn't know what a police acceptance stamp was or didn't care when he was assembling his "edited" book. Remember that many people wrote Tom's books. I was one of them- police chapter in Vol IV. So that kind of reduces his comment to meaningless. And there was one other photo of a machete shown-a minty blued version in the frog. But the trademark and blade were never shown. It was owned by Pat Caldwell."

Skipper/Tom
My comments above were merely a statement of fact. The mark on Jerry Drake's machete was a police acceptance stamp usually seen on German police holsters, that Tom could not possibly have been expected to recognize and point out 30+ years ago, given his expertise in III Reich edged weapons. So the Drake machete was police accepted and not LW issued, though it was included with the source literature that established the use of the machete by the LW.

Taking my comments as disparaging of Tom's publications is to miss the point. We cannot all be experts across the breadth of III Reich militaria. Tom's expertise in the area of III Reich blades is unquestionable. But he had to the foresight to call upon the specific collecting expertise of others to produce a compendium of knowledge in his reference books that has not been duplicated in the field. Bradach, Reddick, Wittmann,I and many others provided chapters specific to our collecting fields. That coupled with his own researched writing, superb reference photographs and unsurpassed production standards was a recipe for success as Tom has indicated. I have my copies still and use them often.

IMO there are some 25 and/or 25 + year old books on blades that have no fakes in them. And no readily discernible (if any) factual errors. But with the books that come to mind, both foreign language and in English, they are not dealing with Third Reich era dress sidearms. And I would agree that the perfect error free dress sidearm reference book is and was a worthy goal. But given the many obstacles. Very hard if not almost impossible to attain with the sometimes limited resources at hand. Which reflects very favorably on those who undertook such a difficult challenge. Having both types of books, which have seen a fair amount of use depending on what I was interested in at the time. FP

�Also interesting to know is that these pieces are now being reproduced and sell for only about $100.00. Not perfect repros as usual--but not too bad. Someone will hype them up a bit or use the scabbards. Better watch out for them.�

I think that Houston�s crystal ball to see into the future is working just fine. Whenever there is money to be made off of the unsuspecting - bogus items seem to spring up out of nowhere to accommodate them.

What has been described in some of the advertising for the reproduction Luftwaffe machetes as: �Dark finished hardwood scales are pinned in place.� Spool about 2/3 of the way down on the attached link and look at the dark handled example. FP

Luftwaffe Machete Link

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
�Also interesting to know is that these pieces are now being reproduced and sell for only about $100.00. Not perfect repros as usual--but not too bad. Someone will hype them up a bit or use the scabbards. Better watch out for them.�

I think that Houston�s crystal ball to see into the future is working just fine. Whenever there is money to be made off of the unsuspecting - bogus items seem to spring up out of nowhere to accommodate them.

What has been described in some of the advertising for the reproduction Luftwaffe machetes as: �Dark finished hardwood scales are pinned in place.� Spool about 2/3 of the way down on the attached link and look at the dark handled example. FP

Luftwaffe Machete Link

Fred.
What about Brians`3800US Machete then ? Opinions of this ?
http://www.militarycollectible...res.php?file=da10012

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Prinz (aka "Frogprince"):
Joe, I remember the discussion and it was on a forum not yet mentioned here. From what I seemed to be finding through experimentation by using a grayscale conversion, it wasn�t steel versus brass. But brass versus aluminum. Wondering if perhaps the Luftwaffe was doing some experimentation - as seen with a quite a few other items during the time of the Third Reich?

Attached is one of the machetes just posted along with some additional reference examples to give a perspective. BTW: Instead of the aluminum Luftwaffe crossguard I used last time. Here I purposely used a piece of satin/brush finished aluminum sheet metal stock. To try and minimize the reflected light as much as was possible. Everyone can be their own judge as to what the images do or don�t show.

As for: �Why all the minty machetes? Perhaps the idea behind them. They were packed away in boxed kits to be used in emergencies. And there they remained.�

I�m OK with that to explain a number of different things that we see in collecting in general. But it still fails to explain I think why there are not a comparable (or maybe even greater) number of �minty� steel mounted Luftwaffe machetes in circulation as compared to the �minty� brass ones. Ordinarily you would think that the �new kids on the block� would be in better condition than the old issue items - that would or should have gone to the Russian front first. FP

Fred.
In the Th Johnson book page 103 where the machates is pictured i have this comments.``
---------

The Colour of the crossguard is very light on the Machete without the frog and the scabbard the LW soldier have in hands are near black.
That machete is 100% brass fittings in that orginal picture. Because the scabbard is black like you can see clearly in the picture.

If the scababrd have been made of brass , this would have the same colour.
And if the Machete in the pics has been a Steel Crossguard variant > the Crossguard have been BLACK same as the machete scabbard!

Thats my opinions. are you with me ?

All the best LH

Here is the picture in the book. ( cut picture)
I hope Thomas Johnson not "cut" my head of for this picture. He will understand for sure.

--------
In that pics you can see the difference between scabbard and the crossguard.Brass and steel.
Light & Black.
This is evidence clear as night + the history of MY machete where it came from.

I think this was the debate that Joe and Fred were talking of. I would find it hard to believe that we can say 100% if in this photo that the machete is a brass crossguard type. I want to believe it but without further photos or recoreds its not 100% sure. And... in Freds link on the bayonet page I noted that the machete with out the sawback and with the rivets on the grips the scabbard looks to have one single screw and smaller at that. I think as in my other posting here that to refer to these as"Luftwaffe machetes" is a bit of an error. maybe survival machetes or utility machetes. Bret Van Sant

quote:

Originally posted by cog-hammer:
I think this was the debate that Joe and Fred were talking of. I would find it hard to believe that we can say 100% if in this photo that the machete is a brass crossguard type. I want to believe it but without further photos or recoreds its not 100% sure. And... in Freds link on the bayonet page I noted that the machete with out the sawback and with the rivets on the grips the scabbard looks to have one single screw and smaller at that. I think as in my other posting here that to refer to these as"Luftwaffe machetes" is a bit of an error. maybe survival machetes or utility machetes. Bret Van Sant

98% agree with you Bret

As you note the "single screw" . My machete have 2 screws on the trout on top.
John Z `s Machete have one screw.But the machete he have is made later ,and that is a variations in production is my opinion.

That listed in the link up front( MC) have two screws.
If you look at the picture in TH Johnsons book ? What do you see ?

The grip and crossguard/ cap is made of brass ,-not steel.
We can discuss & discuss but i know for sure where mine came from. Im sure my machete is one and the only in Norway.
This is the first i have seen live !
If other have some ? please post some pics of it here.

Regards LH

I shot this some few minutes ago.
The same difference.

quote:

Originally posted by cog-hammer:
I think this was the debate that Joe and Fred were talking of. I would find it hard to believe that we can say 100% if in this photo that the machete is a brass crossguard type. I want to believe it but without further photos or recoreds its not 100% sure. And... in Freds link on the bayonet page I noted that the machete with out the sawback and with the rivets on the grips the scabbard looks to have one single screw and smaller at that. I think as in my other posting here that to refer to these as"Luftwaffe machetes" is a bit of an error. maybe survival machetes or utility machetes. Bret Van Sant

Bret, if it isn't brass, what is it? Fred took the position that it could be aluminum. But no aluminum hilt variations have ever been reported. Ever. The only two variations found are brass and blued steel. And you are not going to suggest to me that that machete is blued steel, are you?

The only other photo of the blade in use is the one below (severely cropped because posting size limitations) found in a book on LW equipment. Looks like blued steel to me. But of course, I don't think we can be 100% sure unless we find additional photos and records. Correct? So according to your line of thought, and Houston's I suspect, we really can't be sure of the blued steel versions. Or, if you two are sure of the blued steel versions, then I think you are irrationally discriminating again the brass version, inasmuch as the two versions have equal "documentation". You are both entitled to your opinions, but I don't see how you can have it both ways. With equal photo documentation, then they both should be called LW Buschmesser (machete) or then they are both a Survival Buschmesser.

The photo spread in the "Die Woche" magazine that appeared in Johnson's Vol III shows new equipment having been removed from the "Winterbordnotausrustung" emergency kit for the Heinkel 111. Snowshoes, shovel, machete,even the box itself appear pristine in the photos. The wood grip plates appear light colored and new. The hilt end cap matches the crossguard. The blade is without blemish save for the three wear marks from the scabbard. And for the record, the German article described the blade as a "Buschmesser". Translated that means machete.

One final comment on Fred's question about why so many nice condition brass ones are found compared to the steel version.Can we be sure that all of the Buschmessers were used for emergency equipment? The photo I posed here shows a LW NCO with flight tabs, but who knows where he is or what he is doing with the machete.And if the brass were issued earlier as emergency equipment and boxed up all nice and new, perhaps the later steel ones were put to more mundane use around the base. And, who is to say the production numbers were equal. Perhaps fewer steel versions were made than brass. The possibilities are numerous.

As you say

quote:

The possibilities are numerous.

and thats where I am at. Guess I should keep my thoughts to myself. I was glad to see the other eagle marked one in the threads. Mine was the only machete that I had ever seen before. But then I'm not in the larger collector circle of shows and in the know with most folks. I'll let the long time collectors contine the posts. Sorry to have made such a bad comment.I'll keep my thoughts on this from now on.
Bret Van Sant

Hi,
I will not comment on the specific types of machetes, or construction. I just observe that there are several types of survival-kit machetes in contemporary luftwaffe-pictures.

Here is a pic from a book by HD Kraft, - Luftwaffe fliegerbekleidung und Ausr�stung. This pic is labeled "Wustennotausrustung" ie desert emergency equipment. No mention is made to what airplane this kit was in.
I'll let the pic talk.

Close-up scan of the 2 machetes, or meat cleavers???

Was there ever a standard-issue luftwaffe-machete?

Cheers,

Hey Bret, I don't think your comment was bad. Such comments open other lines of discussion. Your police eagle marked one is similar to my two which includes the one pictured in Johnson III. We are only trying to sort out the facts from the legend that has been passed down over the years.

We have two photographs of two different styles of Buschmessers being held by LW personel. We have the text of the article that identifies the blade as equipment in the LW emergency pack. And we have a police air corp manual that identifies that emergency equipment needs to be carried in planes forced to land in snow conditions. including the description in the article. Those are the only facts we have.

Has anyone seen a Buschmesser with a LW WaA? So they used only commercially marked blades? We do have a photo of a brass hilted Buschmesser in the canvas frog that resides in a European collection.

That's all we know.

quote:

Originally posted by Trigger:
Close-up scan of the 2 machetes, or meat cleavers???

Was there ever a standard-issue luftwaffe-machete?

Cheers,

Was there ever a LW accepted machete. Are those two things fixed on a hinge-pin? Could it be a wood-working tool of some kind?

quote:

Originally posted by JWotka:
Are those two things fixed on a hinge-pin? Could it be a wood-working tool of some kind?

Pic is so poor quality, probably a newspaper-photo reprinted in the book so it's hard to make out any details. I can see no signs that these are hinged together, but I cannot rule it out either.

Also at p.342 in vol.3 of "Uniforms and Traditions of the Luftwaffe" is a pic of what appears to be a single specimen of this meat-cleaver in another type LW survival-kit.

I thought that the discussion had settled down, but it seems to have some new life now. I have some thoughts as to some of the statements, but don�t have time at the moment to sort them out mentally.

In the meantime here are some pictures to think about. With the new addition not quite as well defined as one I used before, but it should suffice. The first shows light reflections in the Die Woche photo off things like leather gloves contrasted with the machete. It should be noted I think that while things like gloves, boots, shovel etc. show highlights. There don�t seem to be any from either the handle or the blade of the machete. And in the photo the shadows seem fairly well defined as well.

The second is LH600�s machete with the Die Woche photo.

The third is the new Die Woche photo grafted onto one I used some time back for another thread.

The forth is the same photo added to a later photographic experiment.

And the fifth is a closeup version of the experiment. FP

quote:

Originally posted by Trigger:

Also at p.342 in vol.3 of "Uniforms and Traditions of the Luftwaffe" is a pic of what appears to be a single specimen of this meat-cleaver in another type LW survival-kit.

It is not my intention to mess up this thread, but here is an excerpt of the pic in the book mentioned above.

Cheers,

Trigger, The more information there is the better!! There is also a picture that I�ve seen with the handle of a shovel sticking out of a bag along with what looks like some other survival supplies. All packed together in the bag - with what looks like the exposed ball tip and a portion of the body of a scabbard. That could be for a machete, and is protruding from the bag. Unfortunately, not enough is seen to be completely sure. FP

Fred, I don't really understand what the reflection exercise is supposed to demonstrate. The only known examples of the Buschmesser are blued steel and brass. No examples in aluminum or unblued steel have appeared since the appearance of the blade in Johnson's book. The photo in Die Woche appears to be bright brass with newish wood grip plates. Your photos in black and white use older blades with dulled finish. Apples and Oranges.

You are not happy with the reflection of the sun off the various surfaces. You have provided comparative photos, but I think that any comparison is useless, unless you provide a photo taken with a comparable camera and published in a comparable format.

Again, are there any other physical specimens of the Buschmesser in any material besides brass or blued steel? Are any marked in any way besides the Alcoso TM and E/B or the Alcoso TM without an acceptance mark. If you cannot accept the photo in Die Woche, then we cannot accept the photo of the supposedly blued steel version in other photo. So none of these Buschmesser are legitimate.

Totally agree with you JWotka

LH

quote:

Originally posted by Trigger:

quote:

Originally posted by Trigger:

Also at p.342 in vol.3 of "Uniforms and Traditions of the Luftwaffe" is a pic of what appears to be a single specimen of this meat-cleaver in another type LW survival-kit.

It is not my intention to mess up this thread, but here is an excerpt of the pic in the book mentioned above.

Cheers,

Whatever it is resembles a "bone saw" that was in a Wehrmacht field surgery kit that I owened eons ago. My blood still runs cold thinking of the needles in the transfusion kit that was included. I presume that the picture labels you mentioned were provided by the author of that book, or was it a period label applied to the PR photo? The photo of the winter emergency kit with the description of the Buschmesser in the LW emergency tool box was provided by Kriegsberichter Klose.

Bret/LH/JWotka:

I think that this is a great thread. No one is bad mouthing anyone else and differences of opinion along with back up to the arguments is what this forum is all about.

No one should get disappointed or disheartened by what is said here, it is all in the interests of advancing the hobby knowledge.

I, for one, have been following all of the discussions very keenly and have seen nothing to get upset about.

The three of you should be very proud of your arguments and your back up to them.

Keep it up, please.

John