UBB.threads Forums General Interest Restoration, Conservation, and Maintenance Forum Halting Blade Plating Lifting?

What is the best meathod to stop the blade plating from lifting? On this 1st Luft from Klaas, there are spots where some of the plating is already missing. On other spots, the plating has come up, yet is still intact, although when one presses on those spots, you can see the plating physically move.

I live in a relatively stable climate, so environmentally there should be little issue. Is this something that will just progress with time or can it be halted?

Thanks for the info and regards,

Spot where plating is missing.

I've been told that this is a somewhat common issue on Klaas 1st Lufts. I don't know the validity of that statement.

I have been told that plating lifting is inevitable. The difference between a plated blade that lifts a LOT and one that lifts very little is the quality (purity?) of the metal below the plating. Klaas used a cheaper metal to make their blades and thus the more severe lifting. But all plated blades will "lift" with enough time and there is nothing that you can really do to stop it.
Now that (above) is what I was told several years ago. If this information is incorrect, I hope someone will let us know, I have a 1st Luft by Malsch w/ some lifting as well.
Interested to hear what others say...
Johnny

That information is correct. As production continued, more manufacturers started using cheaper steel and plated blades are more common. To slow down the lifting process, I've always given the blades a heavy coat of silicon to remove moisture. Wipe the blade down after a couple of days and coat with Ren-Wax to seal the surface.

You can safely and easily remove moisture with a hair dryer. It will heat a blade hot enough to completely dry it. Heat evaporation ensures all the moisture is gone. Then apply wax while still warm.

Silicone can be a penetrant. If the bond between the plating and the base metal is not intact the silicone may cause further lifting.

Penetrating oils such as WD 40 have ben known to degrade plated finishes on firearms.

Tony

Wow, great info Tony. I would have thought penetrating the base metal to stop oxidation would have been a good idea, but apparently that is incorrect thinking.
Your method would seem to be the best!! Simple too.

The only problem with using heat is that the moisture expands as steam. Any heat applied at less than the boiling point will not remove moisture that has worked under the plating. The moisture trapped under the plating will then lift more plating as it expands. Silicon will penetrate and displace the moisture over a couple of days without damaging the existing surface.

To evaporate moisture you don't have to heat it hot enough to produce steam. Just warm enough to evaporate it. Just as rain drops evaporate off a sidewalk or the hood of a car warmed by the sun. The moisture disapates off the surface quite easily and completely. This also applies to moisture in crevices as long as nothing blocks the excape of the trapped moisture.

If we think about it oils and silicones are lighter than water. In effect they float on water. It may not be possible to displace all the moisture by just using these agents alone. Especially if they block the exist of moisture trapped under plating.

In that case they will only protect against rusting by not allowing any oxygen to continue the rusting process. In the same vein that cutting off the oxygen to a fire extinguishes it.

On the other hand if the integrity of the plating so degraded as to allow moisture between the plating and the base metal, then anything that you will put on the blade will eventually permeate to fill that space. Water, silicone , oil whatever. If the plating is impaired to allow that, nothing will prevent some further flaking over time.

My position is not to introduce any penetrating agents on plated surfaces. Especially those that are already showing signs of adhesion failure.

Moisture can also be evaporated using a blast of air from a compressor. Proper moisture traps inline on the hose will prevent moisture generated in the compressor being sprayed on the surface. The danger using this method on a damaged plated surface is that the higher air pressure may lift adjacent plating thru the force of the air flow.

There are many ways to achieve similar results. One just needs to use the method they have complete confidence in.

Just some thoughts.

Tony

In all that being discussed, no one points out the natural cause of condensation, which occurs even in mild temperature swings.

As the metal goes through heat/cool cycles, minute traces of moisture work at the molecular level to further aid the corroison cell as an electolyte that causes the corrosion in the first place. As long as there are air chambers there will be corrosion, and the more pourous the metal, the larger the likely hood of corrosion.

Best bet is to store the blade in a air tight display case and use Vapor Phase Corrosion Inhibitor Emitters, they are cheap and will perform as to the elimnation of oxygen which is one of the prime culprits to begin with.

You can still take the piece out to handle it, and then reinsert it into the display when done, because these issues occur largely during storage or display, not when the item is handled.

Go here for more info:

How VpCi works:

http://www.cortecvci.com/Products/Productcharts/Graph02.html

Products for display cases:

http://www.cortecvci.com/Products/products.php?showonly=Electric

Scroll down to where the VpCi 101 emitters are listed, and further down are larger emitters for larger display cases.

This product will not cause harm to leather, fabrics or anything else, and only work to protect metal, and that is even bullion as well.

Have fun studying this stuff!!

BTW, we have been distributing these products for years, do the local gun shows in Honolulu, and we have a lot of customers who use these for weapons storage as well. One great thing about the emitters are with weapons storage, you can fire the weapon, return it to your safe without cleaning it, store it for a year, pull it out and it will be in the same condition as the day you put it in the safe after shooting it. We do not recommend this, but that is how well these things work.

here is a couple Gun Magazine links about tests they did under CORTECs consumer label, Bullfrog:

http://www.bull-frog.com/publications/articles/gunsMag.pdf

http://www.bull-frog.com/publications/articles/bury_seashore.php

To try and cut to the chase: A number of good comments have been made here as regards corrosion and corrosion underneath nickel plating. Germany was in short supply of metal alloys for steel (including nickel). Lower cost carbon steels (as a rule) are going to be more susceptible to corrosion than alloy steels. With things like the size and distribution of carbon particles (etc.) in the steel having an effect.

But the most critical problem IMO is the quality of the nickel plating, which got worse as time progressed during the Third Reich. I have seen remarkably well preserved Imperial era blades that survived because of heavy nickel plating. Common sense I think tells you that a plated layer .025 mm thick is going to a lot more effective than one that is only .006 mm. thick. The problem is that nickel plating is known for its porosity. And when nickel is used on steel/iron galvanic (corrosion) cells can set up in the pores of the metal - which has the effect of accelerating the corrosion. And even a .025 mm plating layer is still relatively thin, so that a slight abrasion can reduce protection in a given area, permitting the base metal to be attacked. And once corrosion cells are started they are there to stay. And you can�t reverse the process of the plating lifting away from the base metal.

If microscopic moisture has penetrated to damage base metal underneath plating. There is no guarantee that anything is going to get to it to prevent further corrosion. (I have a case study on an M1 rifle, but the story is too long to repeat here.) That does not mean that it�s a bad idea to try. And if plating is still attached to the base metal it won�t lift. If there is already a corrosion layer between the base metal and the plating - then you pay your money and take your chances - but it might be better to leave it alone. Unless it�s really bubbling indicating that the internal chemical reaction might be self sustaining.

In any case an external physical barrier like silicone, RenWax (etc.) is probably a good idea if for no other reason than to protect undamaged portions of a blade. And I like VPI myself having seen good results with corrosion prevention on guns. The downside being that sealed containers are a must which can be bothersome.

PS: Heat accelerates corrosion. Which is why gun bluing tanks are heated (bluing being a controlled oxidation of the metal surface). With (as I recall) 20 �F doing something like doubling the rate of rusting/corrosion. Something to keep in mind. FP

Clarification: It should read �With (as I recall) a 20 �F increase in temperature doing something like doubling the rate of rusting/corrosion."