UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum swastika wrong way !?

Fred,

I examined and photgraphed Shea's sword and it was aluminum. I don't know why the langet photo came thru so dark. All of these Voos anomalies are aluminum, except Roger's sword.

The technical aspects of sword construction can be confusing for various reasons, and we have to try to sort it out as we go. I always appreciate your knowledge and input on these subjects, as you have contributed a lot to the understanding of this discipline, or 'hobby', as many say.

I haven't seen a dictionary definition of "Tombak", it's not in my Harper-Collins Ger/Engl edition. Maybe you can post more of what you've found. Was it a technical dictionary? What you described is similar to brass, which is usually 65% copper and 35% zinc. The zinc is what gives the alloy its golden color. This word "Tombak" may be the proverbial 'contradiction-in-terms'conundrum; or confusion reigns! A lot of Third Reich badges and medals are made of zinc or an affiliated alloy. It was the one metal that they had a surplus of, and they really used it. Maybe the catchy moniker for this metal was "Tombak"? A very sentient German sword collecting colleague of mine is mystified about the definition of the term as well, and he was born and raised in Remscheid, a tool and die town across the Wupper from Solingen. In a Google search two years ago, I came up primarily with the Canadian version of "Tombac", which is heavy in nickel. There was little if anything on Tombak, as I recall. This term needs researched some more, for sure.

I really think that Pack & Co. took license and great liberty with their use of the term, and their touting of the word was to cover a cost cutting/profit enhancing effort. The green tinge to Pack's "Tombak" sword hilts is indicative of the high zinc content, a similar effect which can be seen on most zinc die cast Eickhorn Prinz Eugen's. Copper plating would have helped to eliminate most of this 'bleeding', but after Sept, 1939 copper was in short supply.

Perhaps Wotan or others may have some knowledge of "Tombak"?

OK, Rob NL,
you state this:
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Well, I know that I have a hand written document from him saying that he owned these items.
He got a late type Knight's Cross , that also is a good sign because he won his Cross in march '45 .
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Well, I don't know much about Knights' Crosses or if there is a "late type" pattern - so perhaps some other member can explain this distinction to me.

It seems to me that if he got it in March 1945, then it would appear that he also received his Army Dagger with the "Ritterkreuz" inscription on the blade at the same time.

I will have to be candid with you, and state that I am not particularly convinced that the Germans were issuing presentation daggers with Knights Crosses in March 1945.

I think that it would be a good idea if you revealed to us just who this Knights Cross Winner is, and we will see if we can confirm some of the details. I say this because I have a vague suspicion that the seller of the items is not being wholly truthful to you.

Regards
FJS

The dagger was given to him by his men and from what I see also atributed to him by them.
So you really think that the Germans didnt buy or sell those daggers because the War was almost lost ?
If they would act like this they would be shot.
This man is in the books , and he did recieve the Knight's Cross for his battle against the Russians.
I think that you would better be studying this link http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/817092573/m/3260070874
For I think this is much more important then to be commenting on a 500$ sword.
Be patient , next week I will see him , but I wonder if I tell you that he DID carry the sword then , if you would believe me. I , for one , know that you will still have your doubts . What would satisfy you? A period picture of him carrying the sword , the dagger , the cross and the rest of the medals?
You know as well as me that this has a very small chance.
I never have seen a Knight's Cross - winner with his dagger and with his sword in a picture.
So , for now , untill next week , we can discuss the Wolf sword.

Ace,
That's negatory. Typical unmakred Voos blade. I have never seen this type of Voos with this exact stylized langet. Angolia has a similiar version shown, but not identical regarding the langet design. Typical looking Voos birdie as well.
Early manufactured sabel.

Ace, Thanks for the update on Bill Shea�s sword. While digital photos are a wonderful way to share information they are not perfect, and from time to time have caused problems for many of us in making correct interpretations.

From my Langenscheidt�s college dictionary �Tombak�: tombac, pinchbeck. New World college dictionary �tombac�: (tombak) .... an alloy of copper and zinc, and for pinchbeck: ... an alloy of copper and zinc. A German engineering dictionary �Tombak�: tombac ... a copper zinc based alloy ... red brass. While 70%cu/30%zn is at the low end of high copper content brasses (more yellow), U.S. mill standard red brass (more reddish) is 85%/15%, and there are all sorts of other formulations.

The bottom line I think being that as I mentioned earlier it�s a high copper content (brass) alloy generally with a reddish cast. (There are also more silver colored �white� brasses, that are high zinc (varies) with the proportions reversed, and a number of related alloys.) As for Pack & Co. - who knows what they were thinking??

Rob NL, Given the late wartime date IMHO it might be prudent to ask the person you are meeting if the dagger was given to him after the award? Or sometime after the war was over? In March of 1945 the Russians were at the back door, and the Allies were forcing their way in through the front. Having spoken with Wehrmacht veterans who fought on the Russian front: I�m having some doubts that considering what was going on, with soldiers having enough time to try and find, and then have engraved a presentation dagger (that was not a part of a combat uniform). As for the man himself his identity and history as an officer is especially relevant. Because over the years I have seen a number of supposedly named and attributed artifacts that did not match up to the facts. I am not saying that this is the case here. But only making a generalized statement based upon what I have seen happen from time to time in the past. Regards to All, FP

Fred P. After more inquiry on red brass as being referred to technically as 'Tombak' in Germany (especially in the 1930's), you are correct. It is 85% copper and 15% zinc, and known as 'red brass' in the U.S. today.

How the name came to be applied to the late high zinc content cast sword hilts of Pack, if indeed that is what they were referring to as their advertised version of "Tombak", can only be speculated on today. I have a very red colored, uncleaned, dovehead Pack Nr. 207 with the early TM in my collection, that may indeed have been made from red brass. Did Pack use real red brass at one time, and eventually miss-used the name "Tombak", as the metal mix was adulterated, if not reversed? That's where my interpretation of what I am aware of is pointing. Pack was an aggressive marketer and may have mixed its metaphores royally.

Another flexible definition of Tombak:Tombak