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opinions please 
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I have seen a number of these on different auction-sites over the last 2-3 years. Fakes/copies. Or maybe made this way to be different from originals? Many countries have a law against swastikas on public display, but a "Mirrored" swastika may get by, as it is not the same as the nazi swas... Just my 0.02$ worth of opinion  Cheers,
Tor-Helge
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The ones I've seen are on Ebay and appear to be absolute junk being produced in China. To add insult to injury they want to charge you $100 to $200 to ship this crap to you. Every now and then I report one of them to Ebay under the excessive shipping prohibition.
Jim
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And a nasty one at that! Mark 
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Nasty is right!  -wagner-
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So far, the Chinese fakes have been almost funny, but its not funny any more. If not for the backwards swastika, this one might be tough to spot, due to the fact that considerable variation is seen in the quality of Third Reich sword hilts. Overall quality doesnt seem too bad from the photos. Joe S
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Well now-On page 106 of TJ's Volume I of his new Sword series books you will find a dove head version of this. Both appear to be Emil Voos patterns. For many years I have heard of these swords but had never seen any. It does not look Chinese but a hands on look would be interesting and would probably reveal the truth. This sword also appears to have a gilted aluminum hilt which is usually a sign of an original. Sometimes we jump before we see. The more I look at it the more period features I see. It would be great to have it in hand-but from what I see--I think it is good. Why the reverse swaz? Who knows.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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quote: Originally posted by Joe S:
So far, the Chinese fakes have been almost funny, but its not funny any more. If not for the backwards swastika, this one might be tough to spot, due to the fact that considerable variation is seen in the quality of Third Reich sword hilts. Overall quality doesnt seem too bad from the photos. Joe S
Total agreement Joe S! Give these folks some time and they will have all the daggers and swords down to the point where the originals and their repros will be indistinguishable. I have wondered just how long it will take these folks to start putting out fabulous fakes. I am sure that given originals to work from, they can do a great job. Unfortunately for TR collectors! Look at what the Soviets did by reverse engineering the B-29! About the ONLY thing we have "going for us" is that the shipping costs from China precludes drips and drabs from coming in. What will happen when they ship large quantitites to disreputable dealers en masse? Thoughts, Lloyd
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This sword that I showed you all is a part of a grouping that I am buying.
There is a engraved dagger , this sword , his Knight's Cross and some medals.
But the funny thing is , the veteran who was the owner of this all , is still alive .
I will see him , and he allready stated that this things belonged to him.
I dont believe its fake , and if it is that in China they can make these kind of copys yhen we all better start collecting beercans. Or bottles . Or I dont know what.I am trying to post some close up pics of the hilt , but it keeps rejecting . Will try tomorrow.
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Rob NL, it's going to come to that too. When I was a kid, the five and dime had little bamboo and paper parasols "Made in Japan". Look at all the stuff that we get from Japan NOW! Look at all the pots, pans, etc, etc that say, "Made in China". It's only a matter of time I think.
Lloyd
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Jim, that's a real dog! Look at all the "samurai" stacked up further down. At first glance, some of those look pretty darn good to me aged eyes.
One of these days some enterprising fraudster will get involved in this business and "clean up". This is an industrial giant and I am sure they have the technology to make the best repros ever! For all we know, the stuff is some that shows up on Feebay!(I mean TR stuff, I KNOW the samurai are there.)
Lloyd
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If the sword Rob shows is real, then it will be a hard sell down the road so to speak.
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I agreed with Houston. When I first saw this piece (the photos had been emailed to me for comment), I noticed the swastika right off, and mentioned it to Rob. However, I didn't believe it was an authenticity problem, but merely an aesthetic one.
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Ed:
You've got that right. From another perspective I've been dealing with Chinese copies for many years. They have made some credible copies of Mauser Broomhandles, Colt 1911s, Winchester 97s, Browning 22s etc. In my experience they will take these to a certain "quality" point and then stop for whatever reason. The copies of the above firearms while very good in some instances would never pass as originals.
As a side note: If you compare a Chinese AK 47 to a Russian example there is really no comparison from a quality perspective.
Ok Craig I just saw you above post as I was completing mine. I agree that this form of swastika was sometimes seen on primarily flags and banners before standardization set in. I think we'd all like to see some other examples of edged weapons with a backwards swastika and an eagle that looks like a chicken.
Jim
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Yeah Jim, a Sgt of mine back on the Sheriff's Dept had a Chicom AK at work and I got to "play" with it. It was quite the piece of junk alright! Only thing is I am sure, it worked just fine.
I think that a firearm, being fairly sophisticated is not quite in the league with a few pieces of steel like a dagger! I think the Chinese, with GOOD guidance by someone with originals for them to copy could come out with more than just credible items.
Lloyd
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As I said before that is a typical Emil Voos pattern-funky eagle and all with the nail set punched eye as well as the dot in the center of the swaz. Believe me- the sword collectors out there will want this one and there will be no trouble with the sale.
Just because a bandwagon goes by you don't have to jump on it. This sword looks nothing like the Chinese junk on Ebay even though some have said it is the same. Just not true.
If you look closely at the photos you will see-
old hand dirt along the edges and in the grooves-springy wire in the center of the triple grip wire-aluminum hilt with gilt fade/wear on the high points-a nickle plated blade showing typical scabbard marks near the hilt. These are not characteristics of a fake. Just because you have not seen one does not make it fake. Just because you don't understand why something was made the way it was made does not make it fake either.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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Jim , the link that you gave shows an ugly I dont know what , you cant really compare it to the sword that I am buying. If it is fake , then we have 2 options ; the veteran is a fraude , or , they gave the poor man , or sold , a fake sword about 60 years ago
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quote: Originally posted by Rob NL: If it is fake , then we have 2 options ; the veteran is a fraude , or , they gave the poor man , or sold , a fake sword about 60 years ago
I am not trying to say something negative about veterans. BUT, A number of vet's here in Norway, have things in their possession today that they claim to have had since '45. And just sometimes they forget they "enhanced" their war-memorabilia collection later on in life... So for me, I dont care about the story, or who's had an item. The item needs to stand on its own. This sword may be good based on the quality of manufacture, but I'd sure like to see some pics or drawings taken from period catalogues or manufacturers advertisements that shows a mirrored swastika in their designs... Anyone have a Voos' catalogue? Cheers,
Tor-Helge
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If nobody , or at least allmost nobody have seen such a sword , it is unlikely that it will be in a catalog. I think that they made a mistake while making the sword. Unique i would say.
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As I said before--I have heard about these swords for many years but have not seen one. There is another in the TJ book. The 'Why" is the big question. As far as a "mistake" goes--I don't see how that could happen. I guess a few could have been made up from a bad mold by the "tool room boys" for fun--or????? If the original owner of this sword is still around perhaps he would remember something about it that we all would be interested to hear.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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Well, I guess you can still teach an old dog new stuff! Personally, I would not want it in my collection only because it is too complex to explain and there is really no good explanation. For all the perfection of the Third Reich militaria, especially swords, this sword leaves a lot to be desired. To each his own though...good wishes to the buyer and I mean that sincerely. Thanks for the research Houston. Mark 
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I will leave this to the owner, and anyone else who believes it's legit., to explain how the Emil Voos firm,a firm known for high quality production, would ever have allowed this out their door.
Here's another Chinese "Nazi" example for sale on Ebay. Even the Ebay Gestapo doesn't bother getting them cancelled.
Jim
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I believe Houston's inclination toward authenticity is absolutely correct. I don't have a Voos catalog, but I do have the dove head model of what I believe is an original Voos in brass with reversed swaz. In hand, it not only has certain of the unique characteristics of a period Voos saber ("punched" eye, dot in center of swaz, eagle pattern, etc.)... mine also has the STAMPED Voos trademark on the blade. Yes, the Chinese repros also have a reversed swaz... but the similarity to any original Nazi saber ends there. The Chinese junk (as shown by Jim M above) has grotesque hilts, poorly formed blades, strange scabbards...and lots of junked up fake patina. It's all in the details. Voos didn't always make the best detailed pattern swords, but they did many things that were "unique". So, if you look CLOSELY at this WHOLE sword posted by RobNL at the top of this thread, compare it to other period examples, then compare it to the current Chinese exports,and,then, still believe it's "fake"...send any that you have in your collections to me and I'll gladly pay you the Buy-it-now price, including the exorbitant shipping, that's reflected on the Chinese Ebay listings...plus I'll throw in an extra $25 for your trouble.
Roger
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Well, the reality of this sword is that most people would not want it in their collection. Real or not, it has no legs with a backwards swastika and an ugly eagle. I would not buy it and if I owned it I probably could not sell it either.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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Now a brass one with TM and the same wire wrap. If that does not ring an authenticity bell in your head-what would? . The eagle may be ugly- but to the sword collector who has it all-this would be an ultimate find. Talk about ugly-actually most German eagles are ugly, crude,and really don't depict the beautiful bird as it is in life-but we love 'em anyway.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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Well Orpo , then you are one of the guys that only but stuff when the "Eperts " say thats its ok.For me , this sword is from a grouping of stuff from the same Knight's Cross -winner.
Not everything that you have never seen before in your long(?) life is fake.
And for the selling of it ; I am buying stuff that I like , I dont care if you wouldnt want to buy it from me.I wouldnt sell anyway . "You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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Here's a quick shot of the eagle on the langent of an Eickhorn sword in my collection. feel free to compare it with the first sword posted in this thread:
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That's great. How about if you collect ONLY the eagles that look EXACTLY like that one... while the rest of us will continue to collect that one PLUS all the OTHER variations.  ? (P.S. btw... looks like a nice Eugen)
Roger
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Well Rob, I was just answering your posting asking for opinions with my opinion. You don't have to like my opinion any more than I have to like your sword. "You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Beware of what you ask for though, because someone may give it to you. Don't become defensive if someone does not like your sword, be happy with it if it pleases you.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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Period or not, I cannot imagine any german company proudly producing anything with the national symbol mirrored... At best I would call it a mishap, something that should have been destroyed and never left the factory!!! And if it was me, ordering a nice sword to proudly wear on special occasions and parades, I would certainly be disgusted to receive a sword with the swas the wrong way, and would immediately return it to the representative of the company that I bought it from!!!!
Tor-Helge
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Here's a simpler one an unmarked Army saber. Still light years ahead of the one in the first photo here.
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Welcome to the Forum Rob. I hope you will continue. We don't all agree on many things-but the truth usually becomes evident on just about any thread you read.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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Jim
I think you have the beginnings a very interesting
NEW thread that alot of members could participate in...ie: "The Almost Infinite Variations of 3rd Reich Heer Sabel Langet & Hilt Eagles".
However, the point here is that the Voos pattern eagle originally shown- albeit possibly the most butt-ugly, deformed, target-eyed, reversed-swastika, piece-of-crap design since the Edsel- is still evidently an original pattern and, for the collector of variant patterns, a hard-to-find "hole filler" in a Third Reich saber collection.
Roger
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foxart: The only thing I can say is we're going to have to agree to disagree here. A very positive point IMO is this thread has stayed very civil. Rob: I hope you understand that none of the comments here are directed at you personally and we've all had items posted here at one time or another where the originality has been questioned. Many of us individuals posting in this thread know each other personally and understand that critical statments about an item are not directed at the owner. In the end; it's your sword and if you're happy with it that's all that really matters. I like to make an open request to other Forum members: If you have Voos sword examples in your collection please post pictures for comparison purposes. Pictured below is a Voos Dealer Sample board currently for sale at Johnson Militaria: You may want to forward your pictures to Tom Johnson and ask him if ther is any comparison. Jim
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Orpo , I asked for opinions on the originality of the sword, but you could only talk about how ugly it is and that you dont want to buy or own it.
I am not blind . I also see that these swords by Voos are ugly . If I wanted to know how beautifull it was then I would send it to a fashion show for swords.
And that you dont want to buy it doesnt give me usefull info also .
Jim , I know that your comments are not directed at me personal , thanks for them .
Houston , also thanks to you for your welcome!
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quote: Originally posted by jim m: foxart: The only thing I can say is we're going to have to agree to disagree here. A very positive point IMO is this thread has stayed very civil. Rob: I hope you understand that none of the comments here are directed at you personally and we've all had items posted here at one time or another where the originality has been questioned. Many of us individuals posting in this thread know each other personally and understand that critical statments about an item are not directed at the owner. In the end; it's your sword and if you're happy with it that's all that really matters. I like to make an open request to other Forum members: If you have Voos sword examples in your collection please post pictures for comparison purposes. Pictured below is a Voos Dealer Sample board currently for sale at Johnson Militaria: You may want to forward your pictures to Tom Johnson and ask him if ther is any comparison. Jim
You will find this exact same sample board on pg 193 of Johnson's book, "Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich". It's in color too! The then owner of this sample board was a dealer in San Bernardino, CA, Vern Ruppert. Vern offered to sell me the board but I declined. I bought many items from Vern. Lloyd
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Whether we like it or not, the fact is that some items made during the time of the Third Reich were of inferior quality. Inferior quality does not make an item fake, but it does illustrate that the people who made them were human. Judging by the overall quality of the casting in my humble opinion the mold makers (sand cast(?) at Voos were amateurs. Amateurs who simply got it wrong in multiple areas. I think that the first image Jim posted is a die casting, which (with die makers that know what they are doing) is going to create more or less perfect examples every time. (With Jim�s second image the ferrule I think is a die casting. But I can�t tell for sure with the knucklebow and would have to see the underside.)
I have seen past discussions about eagles facing right. And eagles facing left. If you look at officially approved period military decorations you will see both: And eagles with wings out, wings in, at angles, (etc.). I have never seen an approved army decoration with the swastika rotating in the opposite direction. My point being that there was quite a bit of latitude in the design of the eagles - but not the direction of the swastika�s rotation.
Which as I stated seems to be a sign of a factory with less skilled/knowledgeable workers. And that the maker seems to have been reluctant to destroy or rework the sword hilt before shipping for reasons that we can only guess at.
But ultimately a lack of quality (or beauty) does not necessarily affect originality - it is what it is ........... FP
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Clarification: Make that �Judging by the overall quality of the sand (?) casting in my humble opinion the mold makers at Voos were amateurs.� (Meaning that the knucklebow appears to be sand cast, and the person or persons doing the molds/casting seem to have lacked expertise.) FP
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The Voos sword hilts with the backwards swastikas are absolutely genuine, and scarce. I am personally aware of only 3 of the lionheads and 4 of the doveheads. I have one of each in my collection and can vouch for them. Houston and Roger are right-on about these Voos anomolies. Why they were made and sold is of course enigmatic, and Voos is the only company to make such a piece, to my knowledge.
I suspect that the die cutters made an error and it was not caught until a batch were made. Voos, not wanting to eat the expense of the mistake, sold them anyway. That's conjecture, of course, but the most logical explanation. At any rate, I never hesitated to buy one. I thank Reichsword for turning me onto one at the MAX years ago!
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Super guys ! THAT is info that I need , thanks for it!
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I don't usually add gasoline to a fire but I'm going to do so in this case. Firstoff we haven't seen one shred of evidence that Voos produced this sword. I emailed pictures to 3 very respected old line collectors and they all agree that there's no way Voos produced that sword. As we know; It isn't possible to prove that someone never made an item so I will not attempt to do so. Here is an example of a Voos sword(not mine). Please compare it to the first one in this thread:
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I�m not trying to add �fuel� to the discussion either, but do we have an idea as to just when the sword might have been made? After looking more closely at especially the closeup images I think that what we are seeing is tangible evidence of a company that was financially stressed - and either could not afford or otherwise lacked the necessary resources to make a better product.
I seriously doubt that whomever was running the Voos company intentionally had swords made with backwards swastikas. If Voos had intended for swords to have reverse swastikas then every sword by Voos would be the same. They are not. More likely the senior or head mold maker at the time died, retired, was called into the army. Or for some other reason a partially trained apprentice had to fill in trying to make hilts of zinc or aluminum by sand casting instead of die casting.
Except for companies that specialize in casting as their core business, for smaller companies (if done in-house) they usually are done in batches. You don�t see what the end result is going to be with sand casting until the one time use molds are broken and the castings removed. As was suggested, by then it�s too late to do anything if an error was made.
From a modern perspective a maker normally would destroy defective components. But in this case with what is essentially a cosmetic issue - apparently whomever ran Voos decided to finish the raw components anyway - and ship the swords �as is� to generate revenue. My point here being that with smaller less financially stable makers there is more of an incentive to ship items that are less than perfect. Whereas a first tier maker has more to lose if their quality was ever called into question. And they also usually have more resources for example to make (or have made) molds for die casting. Which even back then would have been much more expensive than sand cast molds.
Something else to keep in mind, is that even with the best of manufacturers during the time of the Third Reich, not all items made by a company (over time) will necessarily be of the same quality. You only have to look at P-38 pistols made in the late 1930�s. And then look at the late war versions by the same maker to know that what would have ended up in the trash bin in 1939 or 1940. Was issued to the troops �without the blink of an eye� in 1944 or 1945. And the pistols were �milspec� - whereas private purchase swords and daggers had limited or no standards. FP
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HA!!-Jim--that's a HERDER. If it has a VOOS TM we are in a different ball game FP--Are you forgetting that some of these swords have brass hilts? That makes this a different situation as it indicates production over a period of time--not just some late war bungle.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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Houston:
That sword is listed in another area as a Voos. I will defer to your expertise here if it in fact is a Herder. I have been trying to find other comparison examples for illustrative purposes in order to run this down. If you have other examples of Voos hilts it would be helpful to all if you would post them.
Let it be understood that no one is on a witch hunt here. I believe everyone is trying to come to terms with a very controversial sword.
Jim
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Houston, Actually I did forget because I was paying more attention in looking at the images than I had when I first saw them. And you�ve made an excellent point. But how much does that change the basic premise of a company that for a period of time lacked something? Either skilled workers, a lack of quality control, or some as yet undetermined reason why poorly defined castings are seen with reversed swastikas. The example posted appears to be plated over a silver colored base metal. So it obviously is not one of the brass hilts.
That still leaves the possibility or probability that an apprentice or apprentices were making the hilts if the brass hilts are as lacking in definition as the one posted. Unless of course the brass hilts that ae being referred to, in addition to reversed swastikas, have very well defined castings. What would be interesting at this juncture are some closeups of the reversed swastika hilts made with brass. Showing how much cast detail actually is present so that they can be compared to the example Rob posted.
Also, I don�t remember anyone saying that Voos only made hilts with reversed swastikas. It would be interesting I think to get a look at a couple of conventional (non-reversed) hilts by Voos. To see just how well they are made by comparison. Regards, FP
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Here is an early brass Voos lionhead with all brass wire wrap which IMO indicates the earliest type of manufacture.. This is the scarce one with the Whermacht eagle and swastika on the P guard. It is not exactly the same and of better quality of the one we are looking at but the eagle is basically the same with dot in the center of the swaz and nail set punched eye. Voos exclusive characteristics. It is not really a beautiful eagle IMO and does not depict the real beauty of the real bird in any way. It is really IMO childlike and crude in many ways-BUT-If you really start looking at these Nazi eagles they are almost ALL like that. We love them anyway but a beautiful piece of art-- IMO in most cases-- they are not.
I don't own any of these reverse swaz swords and never have-but I hate to have things accepted that are fake or originals condemned that are period. It does not matter if you "like" it or not. Based on the evidence presented IMO they are period. It does not matter if they are in a catalog as many things are not.
Just one final point --If you wanted to make a "good" repro sword why throw in the wild card of the reversed swastika? We are not talking 'Chinese' here-who knows why they do anything?--and who know who actually makes these. The Ebay swords are more of a joke than a real attempt to make a halfway acceptable repro.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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First I would like to explain that it is not my intent to criticize anything that someone collects. This is a discussion among gentlemen to explain why certain viewpoints are held. And to provide collectors (new and old) with information to aid them when they encounter comparable items in the future.
Houston, My sincere compliments on the sword you posted. As always you have excellent examples of the best of what some makers were capable of creating during the time of the Third Reich. Beauty is relative and some eagles on various items are more attractive than others. But as you stated very few do justice to their inspiration. But beauty (or a lack of it) is not a determinate when judging whether or not an item is a legitimate artifact.
After looking at yours in comparison with Rob�s sword, yours (for me at least) reinforces my belief that Voos was having some problems with its manufacturing of hilt castings. Using yours as the baseline it shows that in an earlier time period Voos was capable of better quality work. To illustrate that I have taken the liberty of posting the two together side by side. Your example to the left shows not only a better quality casting. It also shows that the hand detail/finishing was better.
But where the �rubber hits the road� even more IMO is with the second image of the rear. With the rear it can be better seen that the late casting has quite a few voids, raised areas, and other casting flaws. And the finishing is not as well done. All of which transpired before the hilt was plated.
However that does not affect originality, and like I said earlier: �it is what it is ...........� Regards to All, FP
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And before I forget Roger�s (foxart) brass example. Which is really too far away to be sure about anything. But to me it looks like it might have some kind of an elongation at the punch mark/hole below the swastika. And some kind of casting void or poor workmanship with the eagle�s head. Any other possible problems are too hard to make out with any kind of certainty. My sense of it is that it might have been manufactured not too long before the brass hilts were discontinued. FP
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I have been observing some of the commentary about this sword, with the reverse swastika emblem, and there has been some really interesting feedback.
I am of the opinion that the sword is of European construction (and not really like those Chinese offerings), and that it is possibly from the Third Reich period.
I don't have a complete answer concerning How? and Why? such an anomaly of the reverse swastika should exist. The argument made by some other devotees is that it is impossible. Nobody could make such a mistake with a swastika. OR alternatively, this is evidence that the German Armourers were not as precise and accurate as we (me in particular) like to believe.
I cannot go with this laissez faire tolerance that German sword making, engineering, or any other disciplined art was full of mistakes, flaws, blemishes and poor workmanship. Certainly failings existed, but not on the scale or widespread capacity that some other US dealers state.
My simplified opinion on the sword is this. The pattern maker producing the fittings made the error with the swastika without noticing it (maybe it is a form of dyslexia and it might be said that the error was so big you don't see it - much like the expression that one cannot "see the wood, because of the trees"). Therefore numerous castings of the guard and knucklebow were cast - but I would suspect that later on they were quickly recognised as being incorrect when it came to assembly, and that they were subsequently shelved and a corrected example produced.
It is my belief that no authentic issues/sales of this sword with reverse swastika ever occurred - and that any existing examples are the product of assembly from post-war parts (reject parts included). I simply cannot believe that such a variant would pass so far down the line as to go into completion and sale to the officer market without someone noticing that the swastika was incorrect.
It is an interesting feature that the Rob NL sword, with lionhead backstrap (but no pins going through the side projection of the backstrap into the grip) and that the other image presented by Roger foxart, have identical knucklebows and crossguards - although this latter item has a "Dove head" backstrap and ornate pins securing it through the grip. See combined image attached to save scrolling through this thread.
It is my considered opinion that both swords are "parts assembly" and in this instance they are constructed with some rejected parts that feature the knucklebow-crossguard with reverse swastika.
There is another issue in this matter, according to Rob NL he is purchasing his sword through a German dealer, and that he is being given the name and address of the original recipient. As part of the package of items possessed by the original recipient (together with this sword) there is also a Knights Cross.
This is now very challenging. We have a claimed Knights Cross winner who carried this very sword with the reverse swastika emblem on the crossguard. Is this true? Is this to believed? I would like the Gernan dealer involved, and indeed the original recipient, to stand up and claim all this to be true.
This sword is remarkable, I really want the complete answer to all the questions that surround it, because somewhere in all this I suspect that someone is not telling the whole truth.
Frederick J. Stephens
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Interesting Fred--except that I find it almost impossible to accept that this "mistake" was made in the early brass and then carried on in the later aluminum without detection????????? IMO impossible to imagine.
I don't understand the "why" of this sword either but it seems to have been made for a considerable length of time--not just a couple of days or a week.
As I said before I have heard about these swords for many years so they have been around for a long time--and I don't remember Atwood having any either.
It's really a puzzle but the construction looks period. We may never know but, like you, I would love to hear the statement of the original owner and the current offering dealer-- Many would not believe but it would be interesting.
An original photo of the sword in wear would be the ultimate-even a poor photo could probably be enhanced to tell if the design was the same even if the swaz could not be seen.
One additional thought-Why would a dealer trying to sell an expensive made up grouping-throw in a sword with such a controversal design? Makes no sense to me??????
Good to hear from you Fred. Wish you were more active on the forum.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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I havn't read the entire post yet. However, that being said, if in fact its a Chinese piece, which I wouldn't bet entirely on, it's been done quite well.
In my experience, all the Chinese pieces and other repro Heer sabels out there are of lower quality (with the exception of some specialty pieces which are far and few between). There will come a day when repro army sabers hit the market that are of decent quality.
_______________________
German Sabers
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I agree with you, Houston, it is difficult to explain the existence of both the solid brass, and the plated alloy hilt. The initial conclusion is that the solid brass item is earlier - suggesting the mid-1930s before the alloy hilts became more prolific. Of course it could be immediate post-war production to complete "parts" items, when brass became more freely available.
I cannot bring myself to believe that a cutler of the period would deliberatly produce an item with this reverse swastika - nor do I think it is for the Finnish market, who also carried the swastika, but in an upright format.
I am left with my conclusion about it being an error that would have ultimately been identified and rejected - after all, the casting facility would cast whatever they were given to work with. It was not their responsibility to determine if it was artistically correct.
It will be interesting to see if "Rob NL" can tell us more about his source supplier and the link to the original recipient. I would also be interested to know if "Robin foxart" can recall the provenance of his item.
One thing I am sure of is that these items date from the period. And that it is unlikely that they are "fake or replica" in our conventional understanding of these things.
FJS
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FJS- In response to your question, my brass dovehead has "limited" provenance... I bought it in an antique mall in Richmond, Virginia about a year ago. My decision to buy it was based on: 1) my confidence in my own ability to recognize a period sword, having collected these things since the early 1960s; 2) the existence of a stamped Emil Voos trademark under the langet, which is a "plus" for any Voos pattern sword, since many were not marked (and, in my opinion, this obviously helped verify originality/attribution); And, last but certainly not least... 3) the knowledge that other experienced sword collectors were aware of this reversed-swastika Voos pattern and confident in its authenticity/originality. And, to anyone who might wonder... NO, I did not buy it because I thought it was a "pretty" design.  Also, just to possibly throw a twist into this discussion... 1)realizing that the "right hand, 45� canted" swastika is almost universally accepted as the "Nazi swastika" , and 2) momentarily disallowing that the Voos mold maker for this sword was either rushed, inattentive, politically naive, or just stupid... it remains that the left handed swastika( swavastika) was among other things, the Nordic symbol for Thor's hammer. Was the reversal intentional by Voos with the objective to imbue a special symbolism...and, thereby, a unique period marketing spin... to this pattern??? Just a thought.
Roger
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I don�t think that the reversed swastika was deliberate either. And was of the opinion that whomever created the �master� casting pattern could have committed a gross error thinking that it would come out OK in the finished product. Things like that do happen from time to time with tool and die makers, and with someone with less experience would not be terribly surprising. I have a much greater problem imagining anyone shipping out something like that during the Third Reich even with non milspec items. However, in the postwar period in the United States, many automakers had a reputation for knowingly shipping out defective cars from the factory. So perhaps the concept is not a completely unrealistic one. And seems to be limited to one (relatively) minor manufacturer.
There is no question in my mind that legitimate brass hilts would be earlier. What is not known is the exact timing because the one posted could have been made at the tail end of using brass for hilt manufacture. And while lacking a good closeup of the brass one already posted, it does not appear to be as well made as Houston�s sword, but does seem to be better made than the alloy example that started the thread. I�m also wondering quantitatively how many are brass and how many are alloy? Which has a bearing on the timing, and possibly as regards the dagger and the rest of the �package�.
Also in looking at the images. I noticed that the ferrules on the brass and alloy example seemed to match the �artwork� (for lack of a better description) of their respective backpieces which is a good sign. If it's not too much trouble, perhaps Roger and Ace could provide some closeups of the hilts/knucklebows (including the ferrules, and especially the langets) of their swords for comparison purposes. Regards to All. FP
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quote: Originally posted by foxart:
it remains that the left handed swastika( swavastika) was among other things, the Nordic symbol for Thor's hammer.
Where have you got this from???? Thors Hammer has its own symbol in nordic mythology, and this looks like an upside-down hammer.... By some it is believed the "Tyr" rune symbolises the hammer of Thor, other think the WolfsAngel symbolises it. (SS-division "Das Reich" also used this rune as its divisional sign) Nevertheless, in nordic mythologi, the angular swastika does not exist. Only the SunCross (as seen as a stylished, rounded swastika on the 1.st pattern Luft daggers, and the luft sword). Cheers,
Tor-Helge
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One question that comes to mind is if Voos did sell these swords with the reverse swastika, who would buy them? With the numerous sword choices an officer had, why buy this particular sword? Would these swords have been sold at a discounted price? I would think the officer faced the ridicule of his buddies once they noticed the flaw. Max
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MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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Gentlemen:
I am going to try too summarize where I think we are on this topic:
*The reversed swastika sword is part of a grouping being purchased from a WW II Vet who is still alive.
*The original owner was purportedly a KC winner and there are other objects in this assembly that belong to him.(see earlier picture).
*I think we are all in agreement that this example is NOT one of the Chinese copies currently available on Ebay.
*This sword with the reversed swastika is known in both a brass and alloy version leading one to believe they were made over a span of time. However; They are also thought to be rare.
Houston,who has been involved in this hobby virtually since it's inception states: "For many years I have heard of these swords but have never seen any." When I personally think of rare 3rd Reich items I think of Felderrnhalle daggers(around 50 originally made) and July 20 Wound badges(around 100 originally made?). Yet these items are regularly see at major shows and I counted 8 Felderrnhalle daggers for sale at the MAX a couple of years ago.
I'll ask you Houston. Considering the untold militaria shows you've attended over the years and the many many private collections you probably have seen aren't you incredulous that not one of these would ever have surfaced even if it is "rare"?
Going back to the sword in question. The original owner is purportedly a KC winner which is a very prestegeous award by anyones measure. Can anyone envision the recipient actually wearing this sword publicy?
I will remain a skeptic until some actual concrete evidence surfaces here.
Jim
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OK foxart,
Thanks for your initial answer - you bought the piece about a year ago - being convinced that it was Third Reich period. I think we can go along with that. The piece does seem to be TR period, and the majority of my peers seem to agree with this.
How about going to town with your digital camera, and phoOK foxarttoing and posting a whole load of images of your sword? I think that it is genuine, and apparently many of my contemporary associates think that it is real - (although what exactly it is we are not 100 per cent sure).
Rob NL - you started this thread, so how about giving us the latest information. Have you contacted the seller? Have you been given access to the original recipient? What does he have to say?
In this year of 2007 we are in the twilight years of the survivors of WWII - nobody should be in a position to dismiss their testomonies.
Rob NL, we are all interested in helping you with your purchase. How about you share your information with us so we can guide you effectively.
Best regards
FJS
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Hi all ! The latest news is that I bought the grouping and that I will pick it up myself next week . I will go by the veteran also . So I hope I will have some more info then. But I am convinced that the sword is period , the reason that I go by there is that I will probably never get a chance again to talk to the original ownwer of such a grouping. Thanks for all your usefull info , well almost all the replies where usefull.
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In response to the requests of FP & FJS- Following are some detail pix of my sword (...that's the brass Voos dovehead in case you aren't following closely ). Maybe we can beat this around until RobNL can get back to us with some info on his KC winner grouping.
Roger
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Roger
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Roger
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Roger
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And, finally, a photo of the Voos trademark...snake around stump w/ "Emil Voos Solingen"...not too visible as it is somewhat small and high on the front of the blade under the langet ... but just to semi-prove that it's there . That's all folks!
Roger
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Jim--I'm never really that surprised when I see something I never have seen in over 50 years of looking. In fact, it happens ALL the time. There is just NO END to the rare and unusual things produced during the Third Reich and earlier. Just a ton of it is NOT in ANY BOOK. I'm sure that Fred and many others will agree.
MAX & OVMS Life Member, MAX Bd. of Experts. GDC Platinum Dealer. Collector since 1955.
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Thank You Roger!! We all appreciate the extra effort that you made to try and bring some closure to what has been at times a very controversial topic. As for your sword, some of what looked like possible defects in the original image turned out to be OK in the new images. And the overall quality of the casting and hand work seems to be somewhere between Houston�s and Rob NL�s. It also looks like the same �master� pattern was most likely used for yours and Rob�s - with the differences being accounted for by the hand finishing/detailing process. (The sword�s condition of course speaks for itself.)
What still leaves me scratching my head in bewilderment is that apparently somebody in the Voos factory - instead of modifying or having a new �master� made with the correct rotation - continued to use the old one. I am not arguing that it did not happen. Just trying to see it in the light of 70 years ago as to what possibly could have caused a failure to make a correction at the factory. Thanks Again, FP
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FP Some possibilities- 1. The brass and aluminum models were made made "back-to-back", within a relatively short period of time, at the cusp of the transition from brass to aluminum casting. The lack in details in both design and finish may then have been a result of oversight in quality control due to more important priorities relating to the changeover of manufacturing processes, or... 2. The reversed swastika was intentional for whatever reason(s), or... 3. nobody really cared as much as we would like to believe they cared, or ... 4. Simply, nobody noticed. As you say, whatever the reason, we will probably never know it (... unless somebody can come up with a period Voos catalog that pictures this "variation" )
Roger
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Let's hope for a period photo from the original owner also.
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Tom Johnson had one of these forsale several years ago in his catalog.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
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LIFE MEMBER OVMS
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Hi Rob NL,
Well you are persistent - I do know of this sword, and as you and some others already know, my opinion of it is not totally flattering. However, despite Craig's exhortations that I stand up and say what I have to say, I will not be shanghaid into that until I am ready to speak - there is some other research that I am pursuing.
So for the current time can we concentrate on your sword with the reverse swastika? After all that is what this thread is all about. Several of us here are particularly interested in seeing how all the material you are buying is related to the Knights Cross Winner it is claimed to come from (we are even more curious as to who this gentleman really is). You see, Rob NL, the fact that your sword with the reversed emblem appears to be more important than the Knights Cross and its' associated recipient is a matter of some curiosity. I find it odd that the focus of attention is on the sword, and not upon the German hero who allegedly carried it. Hopefully you can produce an answer to these conundrums.
Roger foxart: Thank you for posting such an excellent set of images. We all benefit from your collaboration in sharing this with us. Thank you.
FJS
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Actually, Fred, I'd like you to address your concerns on the Wolfe sword in the Wolfe thread. There is no harm, is there, in stating your reasons for thinking the Wolfe sword is fake? There is no "Shanghaying" at all - you have a very strong opinion that the Wolf sword is fake, so why not state it plainly.
By the way, why should you find it "odd" that the focus of attention here is on Rob's "reverse swastika" sword? It is, after all, the sword forum, is it not?
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Hi Frederick ,
as I said before , I will go there next week, and meet him .
I am really confused by your reply.
I posted a picture of a sword on the sword forum, why should I concentrate on the recipient? After all, isnt it "buy the sword , NOT the story " .
But , if you want for me to post some pics of the rest of the grouping so you can see them , just say the word.
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"What we've got here is...a failure to communicate."
Tagline delivered by Warden Martin in Cool Hand Luke -- 1967
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�Did I miss a meeting?� (Garry Marshall in the movie �Soap Dish� 1991) referring to some of the comments made regarding a different discussion. I thought that the presentation Luftwaffe sword thread was on hiatus awaiting posting of the rest of the supporting documentation. The last time I looked there was some question about an exchange - and it was unknown what exactly was involved.
Speaking as an outside observer my point is, as has occurred on occasion with other Third Reich items, sometimes if the documentation or other evidence and the item itself don�t quite match up it does call into question an item�s provenance. Let me emphasize that I am not saying that this is the case here - having only the limited knowledge which has been presented. But if I was in similar situation and was called upon to discuss something I would probably want all of the available information myself. And the reason for that is with some items it�s the supporting facts that can make or break the �chain of evidence� used to try and prove provenance/legitimacy.
As for this thread which has been very educational for me, I am eagerly awaiting the rest of the artifacts with the reversed swastika sword. FP
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So Fred , you need documents to see that the Wolf sword is real?
Strange that you cant judge from the pictures.
But anyway , the documents will be posted today or tomorrow .
Then I would really want to hear what is wrong with the sword.
Greetings from Holland .
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OK, first my reply to Craig:
When I respond to the issue of the Wolf Sword, then I will do it on the appropriate thread. I have no reticence in speaking out when I am ready - I merely responded in this column as a matter of courtesy to the enquiry by Rob NL. I will deliver my commentary about the Wolf Sword when I am complete, in my own time, and in the appropriate thread.
To refer to Rob NL's sword (also in the latter part of Craig's submission), I feel that perhaps I haven't explained myself clearly - in which case I will do so now:
Rob NL - your sword with the reverse swastika is incredibly interesting - and I fully accept that it dates from the time of the Third Reich. I have previously given my understanding of how it may have come into existence. It is a matter of choice whether or not you accept my interpretation of it, or that of some other contributor. At this moment all opinions are equally valid and the one thing that we seem to agree upon is that it does date from that period.
Your revelation that the sword is part of a grouping of things that you are buying adds a new dimension to this - for in your grouping there is a Knights Cross which somebody has told you is genuine? Not only that, the dealer from whom you are buying this material tells you that they are all from the same owner - a Knights Cross Winner, and also that you can meet the man himself. This is fantastic - because what this means is that your sword is no longer a curious anomaly among Third Reich Swords - it is now a personality item! The Sword of a Knights Cross Winner, that is why my focus on this item shifts from the basic construction of the sword to the individual who originally owned it.
You must get the former owner to reveal to you how it was that he purchased this sword;
Where did he buy it from?;
Was the design shown in a catalogue?;
Did he have a preference for the deisgn of the "reversed" swastika?
All this is important, Rob NL - as you will discover in future years that true provenance is everything. From my point of view, even if this destroys my theory about the sword being reject parts made up post-war, I am happy to lose my argument about the sword in favour of you being able to reveal the true facts about the sword pattern.
This way every collector will benefit from the knowledge you discover about this Sword, and the Knights Cross Winner who owned it. I look forward to your revelations.
In the period since I logged on you have submitted other photos. I cannot comment on the medals - I leave that to a specialist - I am sure that their are contributors to this site who can help you. But the Army Dagger with the engraving/etching(?) to a Knights Cross bearer? Could we please have more photographs of the actual dedication? Thank you.
Referring (again!) to the Wolf Sword, as you will see (above) I will reveal my views, and the back-up support for them, when I am ready. For the moment let us concentrate on your acquisitions. I look forward to your reply to my questions above.
Best wishes.
FJS
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This has been a very interesting thread made even more interesting because it would connect a living veteran to specific Third Reich artifacts. Given the probable age of the veteran, a rare event in the 21st century because most have already passed away. I also would like some pictures with the full dedication. And if possible some good closeups of the dagger, and especially the engraving details. I�m not a handwriting analyst and claim no expertise in that area. As a lay person, however, I noticed that that the style of (what seems to be) engraving looked very similar. And when I did a side by side comparison of a couple of the characters - it seemed to me that the similarities were very pronounced. One of my questions to the Knights Cross Winner would be or would have been regarding the engraving. Was the same person who engraved the sword langet for him, the one who also engraved the dagger? Regards, FP
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Gentlemen,
I have no comments at the moment on these reversed swastika swords. I have my thoughts about the subject but.....much is to be found out and learned yet. Certainly a very interesting thread.
Now.............
I would like to "throw a cat in among the pigeons" as an old friend of mine is wont to say when things need to be stirred up a bit.
Brass hilts being early and aluminum or alloy ones being later ones is not necessarily a valid truism.
I have an Eickhorn von Stein pattern sword with the late Eickhorn over the shoulder squirrel tm. I also had a Zeiten model marked with the same late tm. So what you may ask? These are known entities with gilted aluminum hilts.
What makes them different is that the hilts are of gilted brass and not aluminum or other substitute alloy.
Houston has seen the von Stein at a Chicago Show a while back as he was curious about this anamoly.
We may need to rethink some of the suppositions put forth here.
Just some thoughts,
Tony
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FP,
While the pictures aren't overly clear, the langet appears to be engraved using a template and a pantagraph stylus. The indexing is off a bit as the initials are not well centered on the langet shield.
The dagger blade on the other hand looks to have been done freehand using an electric pen of some type.
For what it's worth.
Tony
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Hello Tony , Please permit me to throw another �cat� into the equation. Eickhorn was a major player, and probably had stocks of pre manufactured parts waiting to be assembled. Voos was not, and seems to have done a lot of small scale hand work as needed. Speaking generally, there is no question that copper was restricted for military use (dress weapons don't count) in the late 1930's. Followed by aluminum, with zinc being the metal of choice until the end of series production in 1942. And please don�t let the images I posted make unclear my intent. Unfortunately, to enhance them enough to be able to show them side by side, it created a lot of computer generated �artifacts� which does make it look more like an electropencil. That is why I asked for more images because I knew that there was a discrepancy between the ones Rob NL posted and the comparison. Best Regards, FP
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Regarding the Voos anomalies:
I have file pictures of my swords, as well as one owned 6 or 7 years ago by Bill Shea, and will ask Roger to post them tomorrow. There have been some incisive comments and questions about these enigmatic sword patterns, and that is as it should be. As a collector, one has to be somewhat skeptical of unseen or oddball items. Indidentally, most of these anomalies have been purchased at modest prices, as they were either suspected as fakes, or not even noticed by the seller. I passed up my Voos dovehead and never noticed the backwards swastika, until Reichssword pointed it out to me, and I then bought it. I don't think that the seller ever noticed the anomaly. My lionhead was purchased reasonably on Ebay before the "ban".
To address FP's comments about the hilt sandcastings, which he mentioned and is obviously knowledgable about, I can only add that brass seems to cast rather well compared to aluminum. Most cast aluminum hilts lack the detail of brass castings. Aluminum has a lower melting point than copper and brass (I believe), and may have other ductile characteristics that account for the poorer detail. Maybe the cleaning and deburring operations affect the surface results as well, as aluminum is softer.
A different type of hard-packed sand would have been used with different metals too. I recall seeing some pretty hard sand mold residues at some of the steel foundries that I have been in, as the heat of the molten metal no doubt causes a metamorphosis in the used mold. Some had a hard porcellain look after being used, and what they looked like before the pouring procedure, I can't say for sure, but it was a hard cream colored sand mold that was used at that particular small parts metal foundry. I have also seen a fine grey compacted sand used at foundries that made larger steel castings. Steel, brass and aluminum would require different procedures and mold materials, in order to obtain the desired casting rusults. Others with foundry experience may be able to clarify some of this information. If I can get back into that one foundry, I'll ask the forman some particulars.
The later zinc hilt castings were made by the molten injection die molding process. It is called Zinkspritzguss in German, and the parts are also referred to as 'Feinzink' parts. This die casting process produces a very clearly detailed hilt, albeit from a less than desireable material. Germany had an abundance of Zinc at that time, primarily from the large deposits in Upper Silesia. It became a ubiquitous ersatz metal during the war. Pack & Co. also used a zinc based alloy they called "Tombak", but it appears to have been sand cast, not die cast in their sword hilts. I don't recall ever seeing a Voos sword hilt made from zinc die casting; they are either brass or annodized aluminum.
I think that anyone with a Voos factory catalog from the 1938-42 period would be a big help in clarifying some of the questions regarding different patterns and models. I would pay good money just to get a Xerox copy of a well illustrated Voos catalog. I think that Voos had a Casberg-like design artist who conceived their unique and esoteric/exotic patterns. Once you learn to recognize the Voos signature look, there is no mistaking their products, trademarks or not. Much research needs to be done on the Voos firm, and it would be terrific if such information were brought to light. Unfortunately, Anthony Carter, who I knew, never released his second volume of 'The Sword and Knifemakers of Germany' with information on the Voos firm, as he died suddenly in mid 2002. So, if anyone can shed some light on Voos swords, please do.
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You might want to check with Tom Johnson. He has the most extensive collection of edged weapons catalogues that I'm aware of. BTW: Your email isn't working.
Jim
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I�m looking forward to the images of Ace�s swords and that of the other one he mentioned. It will be very interesting to see them and get a chance to observe some possible variations.
Ace is obviously well acquainted with factory operations and we are in general agreement. As he indicated there are different casting sands and techniques depending on how much finish work is desired, and of course what metal is being cast. With sand casting not only do you have to have a good master pattern, but the sand itself is critical and has to be properly cohesive so that when the pattern is removed an exact impression is left. And it has to allow gasses to escape and tolerate cooling shrinkage etc. For high temperature alloy precision parts in this era investment casting is often the preferred option. As he stated aluminum is harder to (gravity) sand cast. And while there are some ways to try and get around problems with conventional molds. For lower temperature alloys like aluminum (1218 �F) and especially (zinc 787 �F) the easiest method is to pressure die cast it which is what is normally done. More upfront cost, but the payoff is a much better product with less work. (Copper at 1981 �F was more challenging to die cast back then.)
Purely a technical matter, perhaps one of our German speakers can help because I thought �Feinzink� referred to a high grade zinc alloy (minimal impurities). I also am under the impression that �Tombak� refers to a high copper content brass which often has a reddish hue. Terminology aside, as he stated there is no question that zinc became the metal of choice for late production. And I think that it�s reasonable to assume that there was an overlap in materials depending on the maker and time period.
I defer to his knowledge of the Voos company being more familiar with those who had contracts with the Wehrmacht. And deeply regret the very untimely passing of Anthony Carter who was a gentleman and scholar of the first order. And who had done considerable research regarding German blade makers - and was always ready to share his knowledge with like minded individuals. Regards to All, FP
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Posting for Ace...
Additional photos of other known Voos reverse swastika sabers.
First, aluminum dovehead.
Roger
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Next, 1 of 2 for aluminum lionhead
Roger
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2 of 2, aluminum lionhead
Roger
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Last set, Bill Shea's aluminum Voos lionhead (photographed 6-7 yrs ago).
Note, previous 2 swords in Ace's collection.
Roger
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The sword looks good to me. How many of us know how to hang the United States flag? Does the blue uion go to the left or right? It changes if worn on a uniform.
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FOXART
Super set of photographs - you have done us all proud, and especially so in locating some older period photos from an old collector (I use the word "old" in the most respectful sense. I think I mean "senior" collector.)
Whatever this thing really is, we could not objectively assess it without your excellent photographic contribution. You have been very generous, and also prompt, with your archival contribution. Now we have to pursue another source of information:
Has anybody got any information on Rob NL, and his alleged Knights Cross Winner connection to his reverse swastika sword?
There may be more to this subject than meets the eye at first glance - so we need to take all information on board. So come on Rob NL - what is the latest development with your intended purchase?
Regards
FJS
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Further casting information:
Before stopping to visit Roger and having him kindly post the sword photos, I stopped at Harbor Casting in N. Canton. A helpful shop forman there answered many of my questions about metal casting, and I observed their operation as we talked. They only cast steel, brass and bronze items of small and moderate size there. They were casting brass boat motor propellers before I arrived. The molds are made from a special fine grained grey sand, that is formed as a wet mixture over the pattern, and then kiln dried before use. The sand changes color to a cream hue during and after the pouring process. The metal is made in small batches in a small melting furnace that is heated by electric coils that have cooling water circulating through the hollow coils. The melting device is attached to a hoist for mobility and pouring. I didn't catch the name of this mini furnace, unfortunately. This technology is similiar to that used in heating small steel bar stubs prior to drop forging in other operations that I've seen. I was able to examine the sand molding material on a cooled batch of propellers, and it was fragile and crumbled easily after being fired. It was not hard as I thought that I remembered it from prior visits, but maybe that was what I saw years ago when Frankham Bronze was still in business locally. Anyway, the molten metal was poured into the flared mold 'riser'and flowed by gravity down into the 'tree', as several parts were made from multiple molds with one pouring of that heat. That is how modern sand casting is basically done today on a small scale.
Roger later connected me with a friend of his at Stark Pattern (they make mold and die patterns) who knew the technology of aluminum casting, and he graciously answered my questions about that operation. He said that it is usually done by gravity sand casting similar to steel and brass, but the riser is larger to apply more weight and pressure to fully fill the molds. Since aluminum's specific gravity is so much lighter that the other metals, some adjustments are made in the process to eliminate bubbles and air pockets, depending on size and desired quality. Sometimes aluminum is pressure cast using hydraulics in a die casting method similar to zinc casting, and another option is the use of glazed plaster-of-paris or even steel molds, in order to obtain higher detail and quality. He said that brass gravity- casts better than aluminum and that there is better detail because of the density of the heavier metal. Aluminum can also loose detail in the cleaning procedure because of its softer and more fragile characteristics. He said that most casting technology and processes in use today were also used in the 1930's.
Fred, in regards to 'Tombak', as featured in the Pack catalog, my experience with the material used by Pack & Co. is that is is not the same as the metal alloy 'Tombac', as used in Canada. I have a Pack Luft sword made of this material, and it is heafty like zinc or brass, but is obviously cast from a zinc based alloy. It can be clearly seen where the light plating finish is now gone. The Pack 'Tombak' army sword hilts are sand cast from the same zinc alloy. You can always spot them, as they have a greenish hue where the zinc impurities bleed through into the gold plating. Brass or any alloy with a very high copper content won't do that. I think that Pack was talking-up a cost cutting production alloy in their solicitations about their 'new Tombak'.
All in all, it was a very informative day. Though I could have 'Googled' the same basic information on the web, I got the info in a much more constructive way, and enjoyed the experience. I hope that you enjoy the information here as well.
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Frederick wrote ; quote:
and his alleged Knights Cross Winner connection quote:
??? Tell me , does this mean that you question my connection with him?
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quote: Originally posted by Frederick ; quote:
and his alleged Knights Cross Winner connection quote:
??? Tell me , does this mean that you are questioning my connection with him?
[/QUOTE]
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Rob NL.
No I am NOT questioning YOUR connection with the Knights Cross Winner. What I am questioning is how you can be certain that all the items you are purchasing really were carried by that Knights Cross Winner?
From my own particular point of view it is the sword that raises the most interest. Because if the Knights Cross Winner from whom these items allegedly came really did carry that sword - then that would negate my theory that the sword is constructed from original, reject parts.
I hope that this clarifies to you the purpose of my question.
Best regards
FJS
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Ace, Thank You (and Roger) for posting both versions of the aluminum hilted reversed swastika swords. They add a lot to the discussion because it indicates that these swords were series production with no effort made to to change or modify the knucklebow assemblies. If Bill Shea said his sword was aluminum because it was extra lightweight, then that was probably was what it was. However, while the lighting seems to be off, in the middle image to me it looks like perhaps the base metal possibly was zinc?? I am not saying that it was. Just pointing out that it seems to have a much darker gray color than the blade - and aluminum when it oxidizes tends to be more white (image reposted below).
And thank you also for the additional input on casting. It roughly coincides from what I remember about it and gives a good snapshot view as regards current practices. While in the dim past I�ve done sand casting myself, now I am more conversant with investment casting as one of my brothers is in the business. (And another worked as a plant engineer for U.S. Steel but the castings there were much larger.) That said, it was the visible problems in the aluminum sand casting first posted that indicated to me that whomever was doing the casting for Voos had not quite figured out how to handle aluminum. Which as you illustrate is more difficult to achieve good detail using gravity.
The Germans use the same word as English with a slightly different spelling. And the German dictionary/engineering definition is pretty clear that �Tombak� is a brass alloy made primarily from copper with zinc being the alloying element (roughly 70%cu 30zn% - varies). After copper was restricted to military production all sorts of materials are seen in an effort to replace it. If Pack & Co. late manufactured �Tombak� is primarily zinc that may be the case. Although I would think that it could get a little confusing for Third Reich collectors because badge/medal collectors use �Tombak� when referring to badges made primarily from copper. As do on occasion early blade collectors. Regards to All, FP
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Well, I know that I have a hand written document from him saying that he owned these items.
He got a late type Knight's Cross , that also is a good sign because he won his Cross in march '45 .
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Another Voos langet for comp. Very interesting and informative thread.
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Baron, does the sword that you just posted have a Voos trademark on the blade?
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Fred,
I examined and photgraphed Shea's sword and it was aluminum. I don't know why the langet photo came thru so dark. All of these Voos anomalies are aluminum, except Roger's sword.
The technical aspects of sword construction can be confusing for various reasons, and we have to try to sort it out as we go. I always appreciate your knowledge and input on these subjects, as you have contributed a lot to the understanding of this discipline, or 'hobby', as many say.
I haven't seen a dictionary definition of "Tombak", it's not in my Harper-Collins Ger/Engl edition. Maybe you can post more of what you've found. Was it a technical dictionary? What you described is similar to brass, which is usually 65% copper and 35% zinc. The zinc is what gives the alloy its golden color. This word "Tombak" may be the proverbial 'contradiction-in-terms'conundrum; or confusion reigns! A lot of Third Reich badges and medals are made of zinc or an affiliated alloy. It was the one metal that they had a surplus of, and they really used it. Maybe the catchy moniker for this metal was "Tombak"? A very sentient German sword collecting colleague of mine is mystified about the definition of the term as well, and he was born and raised in Remscheid, a tool and die town across the Wupper from Solingen. In a Google search two years ago, I came up primarily with the Canadian version of "Tombac", which is heavy in nickel. There was little if anything on Tombak, as I recall. This term needs researched some more, for sure.
I really think that Pack & Co. took license and great liberty with their use of the term, and their touting of the word was to cover a cost cutting/profit enhancing effort. The green tinge to Pack's "Tombak" sword hilts is indicative of the high zinc content, a similar effect which can be seen on most zinc die cast Eickhorn Prinz Eugen's. Copper plating would have helped to eliminate most of this 'bleeding', but after Sept, 1939 copper was in short supply.
Perhaps Wotan or others may have some knowledge of "Tombak"?
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OK, Rob NL,
you state this:
----------------
Well, I know that I have a hand written document from him saying that he owned these items.
He got a late type Knight's Cross , that also is a good sign because he won his Cross in march '45 .
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Well, I don't know much about Knights' Crosses or if there is a "late type" pattern - so perhaps some other member can explain this distinction to me.
It seems to me that if he got it in March 1945, then it would appear that he also received his Army Dagger with the "Ritterkreuz" inscription on the blade at the same time.
I will have to be candid with you, and state that I am not particularly convinced that the Germans were issuing presentation daggers with Knights Crosses in March 1945.
I think that it would be a good idea if you revealed to us just who this Knights Cross Winner is, and we will see if we can confirm some of the details. I say this because I have a vague suspicion that the seller of the items is not being wholly truthful to you.
Regards
FJS
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The dagger was given to him by his men and from what I see also atributed to him by them. So you really think that the Germans didnt buy or sell those daggers because the War was almost lost ? If they would act like this they would be shot. This man is in the books , and he did recieve the Knight's Cross for his battle against the Russians. I think that you would better be studying this link http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/817092573/m/3260070874 For I think this is much more important then to be commenting on a 500$ sword. Be patient , next week I will see him , but I wonder if I tell you that he DID carry the sword then , if you would believe me. I , for one , know that you will still have your doubts . What would satisfy you? A period picture of him carrying the sword , the dagger , the cross and the rest of the medals? You know as well as me that this has a very small chance. I never have seen a Knight's Cross - winner with his dagger and with his sword in a picture. So , for now , untill next week , we can discuss the Wolf sword.
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Ace,
That's negatory. Typical unmakred Voos blade. I have never seen this type of Voos with this exact stylized langet. Angolia has a similiar version shown, but not identical regarding the langet design. Typical looking Voos birdie as well.
Early manufactured sabel.
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Ace, Thanks for the update on Bill Shea�s sword. While digital photos are a wonderful way to share information they are not perfect, and from time to time have caused problems for many of us in making correct interpretations.
From my Langenscheidt�s college dictionary �Tombak�: tombac, pinchbeck. New World college dictionary �tombac�: (tombak) .... an alloy of copper and zinc, and for pinchbeck: ... an alloy of copper and zinc. A German engineering dictionary �Tombak�: tombac ... a copper zinc based alloy ... red brass. While 70%cu/30%zn is at the low end of high copper content brasses (more yellow), U.S. mill standard red brass (more reddish) is 85%/15%, and there are all sorts of other formulations.
The bottom line I think being that as I mentioned earlier it�s a high copper content (brass) alloy generally with a reddish cast. (There are also more silver colored �white� brasses, that are high zinc (varies) with the proportions reversed, and a number of related alloys.) As for Pack & Co. - who knows what they were thinking??
Rob NL, Given the late wartime date IMHO it might be prudent to ask the person you are meeting if the dagger was given to him after the award? Or sometime after the war was over? In March of 1945 the Russians were at the back door, and the Allies were forcing their way in through the front. Having spoken with Wehrmacht veterans who fought on the Russian front: I�m having some doubts that considering what was going on, with soldiers having enough time to try and find, and then have engraved a presentation dagger (that was not a part of a combat uniform). As for the man himself his identity and history as an officer is especially relevant. Because over the years I have seen a number of supposedly named and attributed artifacts that did not match up to the facts. I am not saying that this is the case here. But only making a generalized statement based upon what I have seen happen from time to time in the past. Regards to All, FP
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Fred P. After more inquiry on red brass as being referred to technically as 'Tombak' in Germany (especially in the 1930's), you are correct. It is 85% copper and 15% zinc, and known as 'red brass' in the U.S. today. How the name came to be applied to the late high zinc content cast sword hilts of Pack, if indeed that is what they were referring to as their advertised version of "Tombak", can only be speculated on today. I have a very red colored, uncleaned, dovehead Pack Nr. 207 with the early TM in my collection, that may indeed have been made from red brass. Did Pack use real red brass at one time, and eventually miss-used the name "Tombak", as the metal mix was adulterated, if not reversed? That's where my interpretation of what I am aware of is pointing. Pack was an aggressive marketer and may have mixed its metaphores royally. Another flexible definition of Tombak: Tombak
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