UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum swastika wrong way !?

foxart:
The only thing I can say is we're going to have to agree to disagree here. A very positive point IMO is this thread has stayed very civil.
Rob:
I hope you understand that none of the comments here are directed at you personally and we've all had items posted here at one time or another where the originality has been questioned.
Many of us individuals posting in this thread know each other personally and understand that critical statments about an item are not directed at the owner.
In the end; it's your sword and if you're happy with it that's all that really matters.
I like to make an open request to other Forum members: If you have Voos sword examples in your collection please post pictures for comparison purposes.
Pictured below is a Voos Dealer Sample board currently for sale at Johnson Militaria: You may want to forward your pictures to Tom Johnson and ask him if ther is any comparison.

Jim

Orpo , I asked for opinions on the originality of the sword, but you could only talk about how ugly it is and that you dont want to buy or own it.
I am not blind . I also see that these swords by Voos are ugly . If I wanted to know how beautifull it was then I would send it to a fashion show for swords.
And that you dont want to buy it doesnt give me usefull info also .

Jim , I know that your comments are not directed at me personal , thanks for them .
Houston , also thanks to you for your welcome!

quote:

Originally posted by jim m:
foxart:
The only thing I can say is we're going to have to agree to disagree here. A very positive point IMO is this thread has stayed very civil.
Rob:
I hope you understand that none of the comments here are directed at you personally and we've all had items posted here at one time or another where the originality has been questioned.
Many of us individuals posting in this thread know each other personally and understand that critical statments about an item are not directed at the owner.
In the end; it's your sword and if you're happy with it that's all that really matters.
I like to make an open request to other Forum members: If you have Voos sword examples in your collection please post pictures for comparison purposes.
Pictured below is a Voos Dealer Sample board currently for sale at Johnson Militaria: You may want to forward your pictures to Tom Johnson and ask him if ther is any comparison.

Jim

You will find this exact same sample board on pg 193 of Johnson's book, "Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich". It's in color too! The then owner of this sample board was a dealer in San Bernardino, CA, Vern Ruppert. Vern offered to sell me the board but I declined. I bought many items from Vern.

Lloyd

Whether we like it or not, the fact is that some items made during the time of the Third Reich were of inferior quality. Inferior quality does not make an item fake, but it does illustrate that the people who made them were human. Judging by the overall quality of the casting in my humble opinion the mold makers (sand cast(?) at Voos were amateurs. Amateurs who simply got it wrong in multiple areas. I think that the first image Jim posted is a die casting, which (with die makers that know what they are doing) is going to create more or less perfect examples every time. (With Jim�s second image the ferrule I think is a die casting. But I can�t tell for sure with the knucklebow and would have to see the underside.)

I have seen past discussions about eagles facing right. And eagles facing left. If you look at officially approved period military decorations you will see both: And eagles with wings out, wings in, at angles, (etc.). I have never seen an approved army decoration with the swastika rotating in the opposite direction. My point being that there was quite a bit of latitude in the design of the eagles - but not the direction of the swastika�s rotation.

Which as I stated seems to be a sign of a factory with less skilled/knowledgeable workers. And that the maker seems to have been reluctant to destroy or rework the sword hilt before shipping for reasons that we can only guess at.

But ultimately a lack of quality (or beauty) does not necessarily affect originality - it is what it is ........... FP

Clarification: Make that �Judging by the overall quality of the sand (?) casting in my humble opinion the mold makers at Voos were amateurs.� (Meaning that the knucklebow appears to be sand cast, and the person or persons doing the molds/casting seem to have lacked expertise.) FP

The Voos sword hilts with the backwards swastikas are absolutely genuine, and scarce. I am personally aware of only 3 of the lionheads and 4 of the doveheads. I have one of each in my collection and can vouch for them. Houston and Roger are right-on about these Voos anomolies. Why they were made and sold is of course enigmatic, and Voos is the only company to make such a piece, to my knowledge.

I suspect that the die cutters made an error and it was not caught until a batch were made. Voos, not wanting to eat the expense of the mistake, sold them anyway. That's conjecture, of course, but the most logical explanation. At any rate, I never hesitated to buy one. I thank Reichsword for turning me onto one at the MAX years ago!

Super guys ! THAT is info that I need , thanks for it!

I don't usually add gasoline to a fire but I'm going to do so in this case. Firstoff we haven't seen one shred of evidence that Voos produced this sword. I emailed pictures to 3 very respected old line collectors and they all agree that there's no way Voos produced that sword. As we know; It isn't possible to prove that someone never made an item so I will not attempt to do so. Here is an example of a Voos sword(not mine). Please compare it to the first one in this thread:

I�m not trying to add �fuel� to the discussion either, but do we have an idea as to just when the sword might have been made? After looking more closely at especially the closeup images I think that what we are seeing is tangible evidence of a company that was financially stressed - and either could not afford or otherwise lacked the necessary resources to make a better product.

I seriously doubt that whomever was running the Voos company intentionally had swords made with backwards swastikas. If Voos had intended for swords to have reverse swastikas then every sword by Voos would be the same. They are not. More likely the senior or head mold maker at the time died, retired, was called into the army. Or for some other reason a partially trained apprentice had to fill in trying to make hilts of zinc or aluminum by sand casting instead of die casting.

Except for companies that specialize in casting as their core business, for smaller companies (if done in-house) they usually are done in batches. You don�t see what the end result is going to be with sand casting until the one time use molds are broken and the castings removed. As was suggested, by then it�s too late to do anything if an error was made.

From a modern perspective a maker normally would destroy defective components. But in this case with what is essentially a cosmetic issue - apparently whomever ran Voos decided to finish the raw components anyway - and ship the swords �as is� to generate revenue. My point here being that with smaller less financially stable makers there is more of an incentive to ship items that are less than perfect. Whereas a first tier maker has more to lose if their quality was ever called into question. And they also usually have more resources for example to make (or have made) molds for die casting. Which even back then would have been much more expensive than sand cast molds.

Something else to keep in mind, is that even with the best of manufacturers during the time of the Third Reich, not all items made by a company (over time) will necessarily be of the same quality. You only have to look at P-38 pistols made in the late 1930�s. And then look at the late war versions by the same maker to know that what would have ended up in the trash bin in 1939 or 1940. Was issued to the troops �without the blink of an eye� in 1944 or 1945. And the pistols were �milspec� - whereas private purchase swords and daggers had limited or no standards. FP

HA!!-Jim--that's a HERDER. If it has a VOOS TM we are in a different ball game


FP--Are you forgetting that some of these swords have brass hilts? That makes this a different situation as it indicates production over a period of time--not just some late war bungle.

Houston:
That sword is listed in another area as a Voos. I will defer to your expertise here if it in fact is a Herder. I have been trying to find other comparison examples for illustrative purposes in order to run this down. If you have other examples of Voos hilts it would be helpful to all if you would post them.
Let it be understood that no one is on a witch hunt here. I believe everyone is trying to come to terms with a very controversial sword.
Jim

Houston, Actually I did forget because I was paying more attention in looking at the images than I had when I first saw them. And you�ve made an excellent point. But how much does that change the basic premise of a company that for a period of time lacked something? Either skilled workers, a lack of quality control, or some as yet undetermined reason why poorly defined castings are seen with reversed swastikas. The example posted appears to be plated over a silver colored base metal. So it obviously is not one of the brass hilts.

That still leaves the possibility or probability that an apprentice or apprentices were making the hilts if the brass hilts are as lacking in definition as the one posted. Unless of course the brass hilts that ae being referred to, in addition to reversed swastikas, have very well defined castings. What would be interesting at this juncture are some closeups of the reversed swastika hilts made with brass. Showing how much cast detail actually is present so that they can be compared to the example Rob posted.

Also, I don�t remember anyone saying that Voos only made hilts with reversed swastikas. It would be interesting I think to get a look at a couple of conventional (non-reversed) hilts by Voos. To see just how well they are made by comparison. Regards, FP

Here is an early brass Voos lionhead with all brass wire wrap which IMO indicates the earliest type of manufacture.. This is the scarce one with the Whermacht eagle and swastika on the P guard. It is not exactly the same and of better quality of the one we are looking at but the eagle is basically the same with dot in the center of the swaz and nail set punched eye. Voos exclusive characteristics. It is not really a beautiful eagle IMO and does not depict the real beauty of the real bird in any way. It is really IMO childlike and crude in many ways-BUT-If you really start looking at these Nazi eagles they are almost ALL like that. We love them anyway but a beautiful piece of art-- IMO in most cases-- they are not.
I don't own any of these reverse swaz swords and never have-but I hate to have things accepted that are fake or originals condemned that are period. It does not matter if you "like" it or not. Based on the evidence presented IMO they are period. It does not matter if they are in a catalog as many things are not.
Just one final point --If you wanted to make a "good" repro sword why throw in the wild card of the reversed swastika? We are not talking 'Chinese' here-who knows why they do anything?--and who know who actually makes these. The Ebay swords are more of a joke than a real attempt to make a halfway acceptable repro.

First I would like to explain that it is not my intent to criticize anything that someone collects. This is a discussion among gentlemen to explain why certain viewpoints are held. And to provide collectors (new and old) with information to aid them when they encounter comparable items in the future.

Houston, My sincere compliments on the sword you posted. As always you have excellent examples of the best of what some makers were capable of creating during the time of the Third Reich. Beauty is relative and some eagles on various items are more attractive than others. But as you stated very few do justice to their inspiration. But beauty (or a lack of it) is not a determinate when judging whether or not an item is a legitimate artifact.

After looking at yours in comparison with Rob�s sword, yours (for me at least) reinforces my belief that Voos was having some problems with its manufacturing of hilt castings. Using yours as the baseline it shows that in an earlier time period Voos was capable of better quality work. To illustrate that I have taken the liberty of posting the two together side by side. Your example to the left shows not only a better quality casting. It also shows that the hand detail/finishing was better.

But where the �rubber hits the road� even more IMO is with the second image of the rear. With the rear it can be better seen that the late casting has quite a few voids, raised areas, and other casting flaws. And the finishing is not as well done. All of which transpired before the hilt was plated.

However that does not affect originality, and like I said earlier: �it is what it is ...........� Regards to All, FP

The rear.

And before I forget Roger�s (foxart) brass example. Which is really too far away to be sure about anything. But to me it looks like it might have some kind of an elongation at the punch mark/hole below the swastika. And some kind of casting void or poor workmanship with the eagle�s head. Any other possible problems are too hard to make out with any kind of certainty. My sense of it is that it might have been manufactured not too long before the brass hilts were discontinued. FP

I have been observing some of the commentary about this sword, with the reverse swastika emblem, and there has been some really interesting feedback.

I am of the opinion that the sword is of European construction (and not really like those Chinese offerings), and that it is possibly from the Third Reich period.

I don't have a complete answer concerning How? and Why? such an anomaly of the reverse swastika should exist. The argument made by some other devotees is that it is impossible. Nobody could make such a mistake with a swastika. OR alternatively, this is evidence that the German Armourers were not as precise and accurate as we (me in particular) like to believe.

I cannot go with this laissez faire tolerance that German sword making, engineering, or any other disciplined art was full of mistakes, flaws, blemishes and poor workmanship. Certainly failings existed, but not on the scale or widespread capacity that some other US dealers state.

My simplified opinion on the sword is this. The pattern maker producing the fittings made the error with the swastika without noticing it (maybe it is a form of dyslexia and it might be said that the error was so big you don't see it - much like the expression that one cannot "see the wood, because of the trees"). Therefore numerous castings of the guard and knucklebow were cast - but I would suspect that later on they were quickly recognised as being incorrect when it came to assembly, and that they were subsequently shelved and a corrected example produced.

It is my belief that no authentic issues/sales of this sword with reverse swastika ever occurred - and that any existing examples are the product of assembly from post-war parts (reject parts included). I simply cannot believe that such a variant would pass so far down the line as to go into completion and sale to the officer market without someone noticing that the swastika was incorrect.

It is an interesting feature that the Rob NL sword, with lionhead backstrap (but no pins going through the side projection of the backstrap into the grip) and that the other image presented by Roger foxart, have identical knucklebows and crossguards - although this latter item has a "Dove head" backstrap and ornate pins securing it through the grip. See combined image attached to save scrolling through this thread.

It is my considered opinion that both swords are "parts assembly" and in this instance they are constructed with some rejected parts that feature the knucklebow-crossguard with reverse swastika.

There is another issue in this matter, according to Rob NL he is purchasing his sword through a German dealer, and that he is being given the name and address of the original recipient. As part of the package of items possessed by the original recipient (together with this sword) there is also a Knights Cross.

This is now very challenging. We have a claimed Knights Cross winner who carried this very sword with the reverse swastika emblem on the crossguard. Is this true? Is this to believed? I would like the Gernan dealer involved, and indeed the original recipient, to stand up and claim all this to be true.

This sword is remarkable, I really want the complete answer to all the questions that surround it, because somewhere in all this I suspect that someone is not telling the whole truth.

Frederick J. Stephens

Interesting Fred--except that I find it almost impossible to accept that this "mistake" was made in the early brass and then carried on in the later aluminum without detection????????? IMO impossible to imagine.
I don't understand the "why" of this sword either but it seems to have been made for a considerable length of time--not just a couple of days or a week.
As I said before I have heard about these swords for many years so they have been around for a long time--and I don't remember Atwood having any either.
It's really a puzzle but the construction looks period. We may never know but, like you, I would love to hear the statement of the original owner and the current offering dealer-- Many would not believe but it would be interesting.
An original photo of the sword in wear would be the ultimate-even a poor photo could probably be enhanced to tell if the design was the same even if the swaz could not be seen.
One additional thought-Why would a dealer trying to sell an expensive made up grouping-throw in a sword with such a controversal design? Makes no sense to me??????
Good to hear from you Fred. Wish you were more active on the forum.

I havn't read the entire post yet. However, that being said, if in fact its a Chinese piece, which I wouldn't bet entirely on, it's been done quite well.

In my experience, all the Chinese pieces and other repro Heer sabels out there are of lower quality (with the exception of some specialty pieces which are far and few between). There will come a day when repro army sabers hit the market that are of decent quality.

I agree with you, Houston, it is difficult to explain the existence of both the solid brass, and the plated alloy hilt. The initial conclusion is that the solid brass item is earlier - suggesting the mid-1930s before the alloy hilts became more prolific. Of course it could be immediate post-war production to complete "parts" items, when brass became more freely available.

I cannot bring myself to believe that a cutler of the period would deliberatly produce an item with this reverse swastika - nor do I think it is for the Finnish market, who also carried the swastika, but in an upright format.

I am left with my conclusion about it being an error that would have ultimately been identified and rejected - after all, the casting facility would cast whatever they were given to work with. It was not their responsibility to determine if it was artistically correct.

It will be interesting to see if "Rob NL" can tell us more about his source supplier and the link to the original recipient. I would also be interested to know if "Robin foxart" can recall the provenance of his item.

One thing I am sure of is that these items date from the period. And that it is unlikely that they are "fake or replica" in our conventional understanding of these things.

FJS

FJS-
In response to your question, my brass dovehead has "limited" provenance... I bought it in an antique mall in Richmond, Virginia about a year ago.

My decision to buy it was based on:

1) my confidence in my own ability to recognize a period sword, having collected these things since the early 1960s;

2) the existence of a stamped Emil Voos trademark under the langet, which is a "plus" for any Voos pattern sword, since many were not marked (and, in my opinion, this obviously helped verify originality/attribution);

And, last but certainly not least...
3) the knowledge that other experienced sword collectors were aware of this reversed-swastika Voos pattern and confident in its
authenticity/originality.

And, to anyone who might wonder... NO, I did not buy it because I thought it was a "pretty" design.

Also, just to possibly throw a twist into this discussion... 1)realizing that the "right hand, 45� canted" swastika is almost universally accepted as the "Nazi swastika" , and 2) momentarily disallowing that the Voos mold maker for this sword was either rushed, inattentive, politically naive, or just stupid... it remains that the left handed swastika( swavastika) was among other things, the Nordic symbol for Thor's hammer.

Was the reversal intentional by Voos with the objective to imbue a special symbolism...and, thereby, a unique period marketing spin... to this pattern???

Just a thought.

I don�t think that the reversed swastika was deliberate either. And was of the opinion that whomever created the �master� casting pattern could have committed a gross error thinking that it would come out OK in the finished product. Things like that do happen from time to time with tool and die makers, and with someone with less experience would not be terribly surprising. I have a much greater problem imagining anyone shipping out something like that during the Third Reich even with non milspec items. However, in the postwar period in the United States, many automakers had a reputation for knowingly shipping out defective cars from the factory. So perhaps the concept is not a completely unrealistic one. And seems to be limited to one (relatively) minor manufacturer.

There is no question in my mind that legitimate brass hilts would be earlier. What is not known is the exact timing because the one posted could have been made at the tail end of using brass for hilt manufacture. And while lacking a good closeup of the brass one already posted, it does not appear to be as well made as Houston�s sword, but does seem to be better made than the alloy example that started the thread. I�m also wondering quantitatively how many are brass and how many are alloy? Which has a bearing on the timing, and possibly as regards the dagger and the rest of the �package�.

Also in looking at the images. I noticed that the ferrules on the brass and alloy example seemed to match the �artwork� (for lack of a better description) of their respective backpieces which is a good sign. If it's not too much trouble, perhaps Roger and Ace could provide some closeups of the hilts/knucklebows (including the ferrules, and especially the langets) of their swords for comparison purposes. Regards to All. FP

quote:

Originally posted by foxart:
it remains that the left handed swastika( swavastika) was among other things, the Nordic symbol for Thor's hammer.

Where have you got this from????
Thors Hammer has its own symbol in nordic mythology, and this looks like an upside-down hammer....

By some it is believed the "Tyr" rune symbolises the hammer of Thor, other think the WolfsAngel symbolises it. (SS-division "Das Reich" also used this rune as its divisional sign)

Nevertheless, in nordic mythologi, the angular swastika does not exist. Only the SunCross (as seen as a stylished, rounded swastika on the 1.st pattern Luft daggers, and the luft sword).

Cheers,

Tor-Helge

Sorry, should have provided links previously to support at least the basis of the Thor's Hammer "theory"...

Explanation of swastika/swavastika:
http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/swastika.html

Re: "Thor's Hammer"

See 2nd item, 5th line: http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/swas.htm

Also see para.6:
http://www.paganlibrary.com/reference/swastika.php


FP, I will try to send better photos of my brass dovehead details later today.

Regards

One question that comes to mind is if Voos did sell these swords with the reverse swastika, who would buy them? With the numerous sword choices an officer had, why buy this particular sword? Would these swords have been sold at a discounted price? I would think the officer faced the ridicule of his buddies once they noticed the flaw. Max

As usual-we have lots of questions -but very few clear answers. Typical as usual

Gentlemen:
I am going to try too summarize where I think we are on this topic:
*The reversed swastika sword is part of a grouping being purchased from a WW II Vet who is still alive.
*The original owner was purportedly a KC winner and there are other objects in this assembly that belong to him.(see earlier picture).
*I think we are all in agreement that this example is NOT one of the Chinese copies currently available on Ebay.
*This sword with the reversed swastika is known in both a brass and alloy version leading one to believe they were made over a span of time. However; They are also thought to be rare.

Houston,who has been involved in this hobby virtually since it's inception states: "For many years I have heard of these swords but have never seen any." When I personally think of rare 3rd Reich items I think of Felderrnhalle daggers(around 50 originally made) and July 20 Wound badges(around 100 originally made?). Yet these items are regularly see at major shows and I counted 8 Felderrnhalle daggers for sale at the MAX a couple of years ago.
I'll ask you Houston. Considering the untold militaria shows you've attended over the years and the many many private collections you probably have seen aren't you incredulous that not one of these would ever have surfaced even if it is "rare"?
Going back to the sword in question. The original owner is purportedly a KC winner which is a very prestegeous award by anyones measure. Can anyone envision the recipient actually wearing this sword publicy?
I will remain a skeptic until some actual concrete evidence surfaces here.
Jim

OK foxart,

Thanks for your initial answer - you bought the piece about a year ago - being convinced that it was Third Reich period. I think we can go along with that. The piece does seem to be TR period, and the majority of my peers seem to agree with this.

How about going to town with your digital camera, and phoOK foxarttoing and posting a whole load of images of your sword? I think that it is genuine, and apparently many of my contemporary associates think that it is real - (although what exactly it is we are not 100 per cent sure).

Rob NL - you started this thread, so how about giving us the latest information. Have you contacted the seller? Have you been given access to the original recipient? What does he have to say?

In this year of 2007 we are in the twilight years of the survivors of WWII - nobody should be in a position to dismiss their testomonies.

Rob NL, we are all interested in helping you with your purchase. How about you share your information with us so we can guide you effectively.

Best regards
FJS

Hi all !
The latest news is that I bought the grouping and that I will pick it up myself next week .
I will go by the veteran also .
So I hope I will have some more info then.
But I am convinced that the sword is period , the reason that I go by there is that I will probably never get a chance again to talk to the original ownwer of such a grouping.
Thanks for all your usefull info , well almost all the replies where usefull.

In response to the requests of FP & FJS-
Following are some detail pix of my sword (...that's the brass Voos dovehead in case you aren't following closely ).

Maybe we can beat this around until RobNL can get back to us with some info on his KC winner grouping.

Frederick ,

what do you think of this sword?

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/817092573/m/3260070874

Knucklebow

Backstrap

Reverse hilt

And, finally, a photo of the Voos trademark...snake around stump w/ "Emil Voos Solingen"...not too visible as it is somewhat small and high on the front of the blade under the langet ... but just to semi-prove that it's there .

That's all folks!

Jim--I'm never really that surprised when I see something I never have seen in over 50 years of looking. In fact, it happens ALL the time. There is just NO END to the rare and unusual things produced during the Third Reich and earlier. Just a ton of it is NOT in ANY BOOK. I'm sure that Fred and many others will agree.

Thank You Roger!! We all appreciate the extra effort that you made to try and bring some closure to what has been at times a very controversial topic. As for your sword, some of what looked like possible defects in the original image turned out to be OK in the new images. And the overall quality of the casting and hand work seems to be somewhere between Houston�s and Rob NL�s. It also looks like the same �master� pattern was most likely used for yours and Rob�s - with the differences being accounted for by the hand finishing/detailing process. (The sword�s condition of course speaks for itself.)

What still leaves me scratching my head in bewilderment is that apparently somebody in the Voos factory - instead of modifying or having a new �master� made with the correct rotation - continued to use the old one. I am not arguing that it did not happen. Just trying to see it in the light of 70 years ago as to what possibly could have caused a failure to make a correction at the factory. Thanks Again, FP

FP
Some possibilities-

1. The brass and aluminum models were made made "back-to-back", within a relatively short period of time, at the cusp of the transition from brass to aluminum casting. The lack in details in both design and finish may then have been a result of oversight in quality control due to more important priorities relating to the changeover of manufacturing processes,

or...

2. The reversed swastika was intentional for whatever reason(s),

or...

3. nobody really cared as much as we would like to believe they cared,

or ...

4. Simply, nobody noticed.

As you say, whatever the reason, we will probably never know it (... unless somebody can come up with a period Voos catalog that pictures this "variation" )

Let's hope for a period photo from the original owner also.

Tom Johnson had one of these forsale several years ago in his catalog.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria