UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum swastika wrong way !?

opinions please

I have seen a number of these on different auction-sites over the last 2-3 years.
Fakes/copies.
Or maybe made this way to be different from originals?
Many countries have a law against swastikas on public display, but a "Mirrored" swastika may get by, as it is not the same as the nazi swas...
Just my 0.02$ worth of opinion

Cheers,

The ones I've seen are on Ebay and appear to be absolute junk being produced in China. To add insult to injury they want to charge you $100 to $200 to ship this crap to you. Every now and then I report one of them to Ebay under the excessive shipping prohibition.
Jim

so its fake??

..

...

Yep!

And a nasty one at that!

Mark

Nasty is right!
-wagner-

So far, the Chinese fakes have been almost funny, but its not funny any more. If not for the backwards swastika, this one might be tough to spot, due to the fact that considerable variation is seen in the quality of Third Reich sword hilts. Overall quality doesnt seem too bad from the photos. Joe S

Well now-On page 106 of TJ's Volume I of his new Sword series books you will find a dove head version of this. Both appear to be Emil Voos patterns. For many years I have heard of these swords but had never seen any. It does not look Chinese but a hands on look would be interesting and would probably reveal the truth. This sword also appears to have a gilted aluminum hilt which is usually a sign of an original. Sometimes we jump before we see. The more I look at it the more period features I see. It would be great to have it in hand-but from what I see--I think it is good. Why the reverse swaz? Who knows.

quote:

Originally posted by Joe S:
So far, the Chinese fakes have been almost funny, but its not funny any more. If not for the backwards swastika, this one might be tough to spot, due to the fact that considerable variation is seen in the quality of Third Reich sword hilts. Overall quality doesnt seem too bad from the photos. Joe S

Total agreement Joe S! Give these folks some time and they will have all the daggers and swords down to the point where the originals and their repros will be indistinguishable. I have wondered just how long it will take these folks to start putting out fabulous fakes. I am sure that given originals to work from, they can do a great job. Unfortunately for TR collectors! Look at what the Soviets did by reverse engineering the B-29! About the ONLY thing we have "going for us" is that the shipping costs from China precludes drips and drabs from coming in.

What will happen when they ship large quantitites to disreputable dealers en masse?

Thoughts, Lloyd

This sword that I showed you all is a part of a grouping that I am buying.
There is a engraved dagger , this sword , his Knight's Cross and some medals.
But the funny thing is , the veteran who was the owner of this all , is still alive .
I will see him , and he allready stated that this things belonged to him.
I dont believe its fake , and if it is that in China they can make these kind of copys yhen we all better start collecting beercans. Or bottles . Or I dont know what.I am trying to post some close up pics of the hilt , but it keeps rejecting . Will try tomorrow.

Rob NL, it's going to come to that too. When I was a kid, the five and dime had little bamboo and paper parasols "Made in Japan". Look at all the stuff that we get from Japan NOW! Look at all the pots, pans, etc, etc that say, "Made in China". It's only a matter of time I think.

Lloyd

http://cgi.ebay.com/WWII-GERMANY-LION-ARMY-OFFICERS-SWO...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Here's one of those "Wrong Way Swastika Chinese Jewels" for your viewing pleasure. We can't post pics. here at this time so you'll have to click on the above link to see it.
Jim

Jim, that's a real dog! Look at all the "samurai" stacked up further down. At first glance, some of those look pretty darn good to me aged eyes.

One of these days some enterprising fraudster will get involved in this business and "clean up". This is an industrial giant and I am sure they have the technology to make the best repros ever! For all we know, the stuff is some that shows up on Feebay!(I mean TR stuff, I KNOW the samurai are there.)

Lloyd

Lloyd

If the sword Rob shows is real, then it will be a hard sell down the road so to speak.

I agreed with Houston. When I first saw this piece (the photos had been emailed to me for comment), I noticed the swastika right off, and mentioned it to Rob. However, I didn't believe it was an authenticity problem, but merely an aesthetic one.

Ed:
You've got that right. From another perspective I've been dealing with Chinese copies for many years. They have made some credible copies of Mauser Broomhandles, Colt 1911s, Winchester 97s, Browning 22s etc. In my experience they will take these to a certain "quality" point and then stop for whatever reason. The copies of the above firearms while very good in some instances would never pass as originals.
As a side note: If you compare a Chinese AK 47 to a Russian example there is really no comparison from a quality perspective.
Ok Craig I just saw you above post as I was completing mine. I agree that this form of swastika was sometimes seen on primarily flags and banners before standardization set in. I think we'd all like to see some other examples of edged weapons with a backwards swastika and an eagle that looks like a chicken.
Jim

Yeah Jim, a Sgt of mine back on the Sheriff's Dept had a Chicom AK at work and I got to "play" with it. It was quite the piece of junk alright! Only thing is I am sure, it worked just fine.

I think that a firearm, being fairly sophisticated is not quite in the league with a few pieces of steel like a dagger! I think the Chinese, with GOOD guidance by someone with originals for them to copy could come out with more than just credible items.

Lloyd

As I said before that is a typical Emil Voos pattern-funky eagle and all with the nail set punched eye as well as the dot in the center of the swaz. Believe me- the sword collectors out there will want this one and there will be no trouble with the sale.
Just because a bandwagon goes by you don't have to jump on it. This sword looks nothing like the Chinese junk on Ebay even though some have said it is the same. Just not true.
If you look closely at the photos you will see-
old hand dirt along the edges and in the grooves-springy wire in the center of the triple grip wire-aluminum hilt with gilt fade/wear on the high points-a nickle plated blade showing typical scabbard marks near the hilt. These are not characteristics of a fake. Just because you have not seen one does not make it fake. Just because you don't understand why something was made the way it was made does not make it fake either.

Jim , the link that you gave shows an ugly I dont know what , you cant really compare it to the sword that I am buying.
If it is fake , then we have 2 options ; the veteran is a fraude , or , they gave the poor man , or sold , a fake sword about 60 years ago

quote:

Originally posted by Rob NL:
If it is fake , then we have 2 options ; the veteran is a fraude , or , they gave the poor man , or sold , a fake sword about 60 years ago

I am not trying to say something negative about veterans.
BUT, A number of vet's here in Norway, have things in their possession today that they claim to have had since '45. And just sometimes they forget they "enhanced" their war-memorabilia collection later on in life...

So for me, I dont care about the story, or who's had an item. The item needs to stand on its own.

This sword may be good based on the quality of manufacture, but I'd sure like to see some pics or drawings taken from period catalogues or manufacturers advertisements that shows a mirrored swastika in their designs...

Anyone have a Voos' catalogue?

Cheers,

If nobody , or at least allmost nobody have seen such a sword , it is unlikely that it will be in a catalog. I think that they made a mistake while making the sword. Unique i would say.

As I said before--I have heard about these swords for many years but have not seen one. There is another in the TJ book. The 'Why" is the big question. As far as a "mistake" goes--I don't see how that could happen. I guess a few could have been made up from a bad mold by the "tool room boys" for fun--or????? If the original owner of this sword is still around perhaps he would remember something about it that we all would be interested to hear.

Well, I guess you can still teach an old dog new stuff!

Personally, I would not want it in my collection only because it is too complex to explain and there is really no good explanation. For all the perfection of the Third Reich militaria, especially swords, this sword leaves a lot to be desired.

To each his own though...good wishes to the buyer and I mean that sincerely.

Thanks for the research Houston.

Mark

I will leave this to the owner, and anyone else who believes it's legit., to explain how the Emil Voos firm,a firm known for high quality production, would ever have allowed this out their door.
Here's another Chinese "Nazi" example for sale on Ebay. Even the Ebay Gestapo doesn't bother getting them cancelled.
Jim

I believe Houston's inclination toward authenticity is absolutely correct.

I don't have a Voos catalog, but I do have the dove head model of what I believe is an original Voos in brass with reversed swaz. In hand, it not only has certain of the unique characteristics of a period Voos saber ("punched" eye, dot in center of swaz, eagle pattern, etc.)... mine also has the STAMPED Voos trademark on the blade.

Yes, the Chinese repros also have a reversed swaz... but the similarity to any original Nazi saber ends there. The Chinese junk (as shown by Jim M above) has
grotesque hilts, poorly formed blades, strange scabbards...and lots of junked up fake patina.

It's all in the details.

Voos didn't always make the best detailed pattern swords, but they did many things that were "unique".

So, if you look CLOSELY at this WHOLE sword posted by RobNL at the top of this thread, compare it to other period examples, then compare it to the current Chinese exports,and,then, still believe it's "fake"...send any that you have in your collections to me and I'll gladly pay you the Buy-it-now price, including the exorbitant shipping, that's reflected on the Chinese Ebay listings...plus I'll throw in an extra $25 for your trouble.

Well, the reality of this sword is that most people would not want it in their collection. Real or not, it has no legs with a backwards swastika and an ugly eagle. I would not buy it and if I owned it I probably could not sell it either.

Now a brass one with TM and the same wire wrap. If that does not ring an authenticity bell in your head-what would? . The eagle may be ugly- but to the sword collector who has it all-this would be an ultimate find. Talk about ugly-actually most German eagles are ugly, crude,and really don't depict the beautiful bird as it is in life-but we love 'em anyway.

close up of the hilt

Well Orpo , then you are one of the guys that only but stuff when the "Eperts " say thats its ok.For me , this sword is from a grouping of stuff from the same Knight's Cross -winner.
Not everything that you have never seen before in your long(?) life is fake.
And for the selling of it ; I am buying stuff that I like , I dont care if you wouldnt want to buy it from me.I wouldnt sell anyway . "You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

Here's a quick shot of the eagle on the langent of an Eickhorn sword in my collection. feel free to compare it with the first sword posted in this thread:

That's great.

How about if you collect ONLY the eagles that look EXACTLY like that one... while the rest of us will continue to collect that one PLUS all the OTHER variations. ?

(P.S. btw... looks like a nice Eugen)

Well Rob, I was just answering your posting asking for opinions with my opinion. You don't have to like my opinion any more than I have to like your sword. "You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Beware of what you ask for though, because someone may give it to you. Don't become defensive if someone does not like your sword, be happy with it if it pleases you.

Period or not,
I cannot imagine any german company proudly producing anything with the national symbol mirrored...
At best I would call it a mishap, something that should have been destroyed and never left the factory!!!

And if it was me, ordering a nice sword to proudly wear on special occasions and parades, I would certainly be disgusted to receive a sword with the swas the wrong way, and would immediately return it to the representative of the company that I bought it from!!!!

Here's a simpler one an unmarked Army saber. Still light years ahead of the one in the first photo here.

Welcome to the Forum Rob. I hope you will continue. We don't all agree on many things-but the truth usually becomes evident on just about any thread you read.

Jim
I think you have the beginnings a very interesting
NEW thread that alot of members could participate in...ie: "The Almost Infinite Variations of 3rd Reich Heer Sabel Langet & Hilt Eagles".

However, the point here is that the Voos pattern eagle originally shown- albeit possibly the most butt-ugly, deformed, target-eyed, reversed-swastika, piece-of-crap design since the Edsel- is still evidently an original pattern and, for the collector of variant patterns, a hard-to-find "hole filler" in a Third Reich saber collection.