UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SS Dagger Forum Question Mid Period dagger fitting and eagle

Hi All

I have this M33 dagger and noticed that the blade/scabbard fitting is not optimal. You can see a 2 mm space between the cross guard and the blade itself. Is this something to be worried off ?

Also, what is the opinion about the eagle. Seems to be a long neck version ??, but is not perfectly set in the wood.


I would appreciate your opinion. Thanks

next picture

and again

Hi Ben,

I dunno, we'll need to see some close ups.

Just kidding!

I don't see the small gaps between the grip and the crossguard as hard evidence (from these photos) that this dagger is assembled from parts or is a bad dagger. I take it from the plating that this is a later dagger (an RZM) which historically had lesser quality controls than the early 33 SS EM daggers. Tom Wittmann writes about this and addresses it in his chapter of Johnson's book regarding SS daggers.

Moreover, wood shrinks over time and with changes in temperature and humidity. The eagle is not perfectly set in the wood as you mention, but again, Wittmann shows a photo of an RZM dagger where the grip eagle on an RZM is actually about 3 mm off from the center bridge of the grip. These things were not installed during the 1930's with laser controlled lathes either.

The gap between the crossguard and the blade could raise some red flags. Even on later daggers, it should not be too pronounced. Do you have a picture of it?

Last question - it that a leather washer on the end of the blade? There should not be one.

quote:

Börse

Hello Börse

many thanks for your reply. The gap I mentinned is between the crossguard and the scabberd. I added a new picture.

There is a perfect fit between the blade and the crossguard (see picture)

Thanks!
Ben

blade - crossguard fit

Its indeed an RZM dagger

Ben,

That slight gap seems to be even from left to right. Is is just that the dagger will not fully seat in the scabbard ?

Dave

Dave
yes, the dagger does not fully seat in the scabberd

Ben

Gailen told me that SS daggers were sometimes found with leather washers for exactly this reason. The washer filled the space between the crossguard and the scabbard when the fit wasn't so German perfect. Most washers have been removed because they are not "textbook". The only known example of a Louper has a leather washer as can be seen on page 29 of Wittmann's volume.

Hi either the lead weight in the bottom of the scabbard is dislodged and preventing the blade from entering fully or the scabbard did not originally belong to the piece. That is a fairly substantial gap even for a late period plated RZM dagger.cheers, Ryan

I'm having the same thoughts as Ryan above.

I asked the question thinking of the scabbard weight ... if there is one present.

The scabard weights are variously shaped pieces of lead that are held in the bottom of the scabbard by the screws that also secure the lower scabbard fitting. At a point after RZM dagger production began, the weights we eliminated. You can usually tell just by hefting the scabbard. Sometimes they get loose and jam the blade.

The other possibility is that the scabbard has been switched and the throat is not wide enough because it was not filed during fitting. You should be able to see if it is catching.

Dave

Sometimes it's just a replaced screw in the scabbard upper fitting being too long or not notched that prevents the blade from going in.

Mark

I went into the scabbard with a long needle to measure its length and I noticed is is a bit too short to hold the blade. Just a few mm. I do not know if a scabbard weight is present. If it is, could this problem be fixed by removing the lower scabbard fitting?

Ben

If there is a lead weight in there, the only way to get it out or move it into correct position is to simply remove or loosen the screws on the lower scabbard fitting and then try to move the weight with the long needle or some long thin screwdriver. If you don't have to totally remove the screws, don't. They can be a real booger to re-install without messing up the threads. All you may have to do is loosen them to get them to release the weight assuming its there. I use a light on the end of a long rod to look into my scabbards. You can often find them at gunshows as "bore lights". Saved me a great amount of guessing on whats in there way down a scabbard.

Mark

Mark

Thanks for the tip. I did exactly what you said, and this is the result. I guess its acceptable now for an RZM dagger ?
What do you think ?
Ben

Hi it looks a lot better. cheers, Ryan

This old topic looks at RZM dagger fit to scabbard.

Dave