UBB.threads

Not sure if this topic has ever been covered in depth, but I am curious as to what insignia was actually worn and would like to see any photos. I know various military units worn Gebirgsj�ger insignia (Edelweiss) so I am curious as to whether these were all generic insignia, or were there branch specific ones?

I know that there was the metal Edelweiss worn on the hat, as well as cuff patches in Bevo and Embroidered. Any helps concerning photos of these or other related badges / insignia would be greatly appreciated.

I have several post war German Polizeibergfuhrer items but not too much information on WWII ones.

Thanks,
Andrew

For anyone interested, here are some post war samples of Bergfuhrer insignia worn by the Bavarian polizei and also the former Bundesgrenzschutz (Renamed Bundespolizei).

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

During TR the Polizei used two shapes of metal eagle and an edelweiss on cloth.

The cloth version I have seen a few times on Polizei green cloth but period photographs suggest that many/most policemen wore the same edelweiss as the army (dark green machine woven)
There also exist private purchase variants of the cloth edelweiss which were a bit more elaborate in there execution.

On my website section "/insignia/badges" you will see some edelweises from the polizei.

Ernst

Very interesting to see the other Edelweiss depicted on your site. Would this have been an early version ? The form is different than that of the more commonly encountered WWII version and the post war police versions.

Would the police have also used the Bevo version of the Edelweiss cuff emblem on the jacket ? The reason I ask this is because in most post war insignia usage, the wool based insignia is worn on the jackets, while the bevo is used for shirts / "einsatzanzug" riot uniforms. Which I assume is because of the heavy cleaning associate with this type of apparel.

By the way, you have a great site. A lot of work, but an invaluable tool for collectors !!

Andrew

There was an extension discussion of the Polizei Edelweiss metal and cloth insignia some years back on this forum. But it seems to have been deleated unfortunately. Perhaps someone can find the thread?

Andrew, besides the two authorized metal edelweiss insignia that Ernst mentioned, Klietmann points out two distinct police cloth edelweiss badges in his early monograph. One for nco and one for officer.

I am curious about the modern Bavarian police Edelweiss badge you show. I have one of these that I purchased some fifteen years ago or so from a police supply house in Germany. But I have never been able to find written identification of its use: who, what where or when. Do you have any info on the badge. I have an award document for an Edelweissabzeichen issued to a post war Bavarian policemen in 1946. I was wondering if the badge was a later issue of this badge.

I don't know where I got these, so pardon me for not giving credit.

Nice Polizei Gebirgstruppen photos w/edelweiss in wear.

Cheers!
Marcus

And again...

+++

quote:

Originally posted by JWotka:I am curious about the modern Bavarian police Edelweiss badge you show. I have one of these that I purchased some fifteen years ago or so from a police supply house in Germany. But I have never been able to find written identification of its use: who, what where or when. Do you have any info on the badge. I have an award document for an Edelweissabzeichen issued to a post war Bavarian policemen in 1946. I was wondering if the badge was a later issue of this badge.

Joe

Thanks for your posting. I hope someone can find the old thread. Would be interesting to read. It's hard for me to see with any clarity the insignia being worn on the cuff. I have seen both wool based and bevo cuff patches. Would both have been worn by the police?

As for your question about the current insignia. There are presently only three groups that provide mountain patrol / rescue in Germany: Heer, Federal Police & Bavarian Police. Each has there own distinct insignia. As for Bavaria, the ones I show are still in use, and there is a cloth version of the badge which I currently do not have. The insignia is basically a qualification badge. The officers perform normal patrol (assigned within the confines of the Polizeiprasidium Oberbayern) and respond to calls as needed.

If you have an earlier version I would love to see a scan. I know the version shown above has been around for quite a long time.

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by Marcus:
I don't know where I got these, so pardon me for not giving credit. Nice Polizei Gebirgstruppen photos w/edelweiss in wear. Cheers! Marcus

Marcus

Nice photos, thanks for sharing.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know the cuff title ?

Andrew

Andrew,

These are very nice photos that Marcus has posted.

The cuffband is the brown "Deutsche Wehrmacht" title that gives these policemen military combatant status on active duty. Generally worn outside the Reich, which makes sense since they are at an award ceremony. It is also nice to see both the one button and the two button caps with the Edelweiss being worn in a period photo.

George

quote:

Originally posted by ORPO:The cuffband is the brown "Deutsche Wehrmacht" title that gives these policemen military combatant status on active duty.

George

Thanks for the clarification, that is what I thought it was but didn't want to rely on my judgement in the event I missed something.

Andrew

JWotka, I clearly remember that old thread you mentioned and have search & searched for it without success. It appears to have been one of many threads that have unfortunately fallen to some administrative cleanup crud. The disappearing thread issue is rather irritating, especially in cases of beneficial threads with solid information. Anyhow, I remember that it included the card from Mollo�s collection with the two metal edelweiss examples and your valuable input. Believe I retained a copy of the card and your comments�I can repost this information later.

Andrew, my Bavarian Bergfuhrer badge is identical to yours pictured. It has a latch cross pin catch with a gold color finish reverse. Do you have some info from the Bavarian police about the inception date of the Bavarian Bergfuhrer? Is it officially called the BergfuhrerAbzeichen?

I have an award document presented (1946) to a post war Bavarian Gendarme for an Edelweissabzeichen. I have no idea what that was or what it might have looked like.

Hi guys,,,There is a notice on the Moderator forum,,as well as a notice in the Commmunity forum about missing topics..


*In short:
Moderators : If you see old threads with dead pictures or references to eBay with no useful info, feel free to delete them.

Members, if you'd like,,please look through the really old posts in your favorite forums - *[pre September 1, 2004]* - and bump up the good ones by adding a comment or simply writing something like 'saved'...Thanks ,G.


*

quote:

Originally posted by Gaspare:
Hi guys,,,There is a notice on the Moderator forum,,as well as a notice in the Commmunity forum about missing topics..

Gaspare

Thanks, I have gone back over the old forum posts and the old post is gone unfortunately. Heck I got bored one day and literally re-read everything...... but I learned a lot !!!

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by JWotkao you have some info from the Bavarian police about the inception date of the Bavarian Bergfuhrer? Is it officially called the BergfuhrerAbzeichen?

Joe

Yeah the badge and patch are both titled "Polizei Bergf�hrer Abzeichen". I am not sure of the actual date of inception as part of the Landespolizei, but I will try and research it from some books I have. However, it would most likely have been since the end of the war . So your award document for the edelweiss in 46 would have been about right. The Bergf�hrer badge would have come much later.

If I get anymore info, I will pass it along to you.

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by Huntzman:
Yeah the badge and patch are both titled "Polizei Bergf�hrer Abzeichen". I am not sure of the actual date of inception as part of the Landespolizei, but I will try and research it from some books I have. However, it would most likely have been since the end of the war . So your award document for the edelweiss in 46 would have been about right. The Bergf�hrer badge would have come much later.
Andrew

About right for what? What do you think the Edelweiss Abzeichen was? The sewn-on stamped metal flower? This post war Bavarian police officer received the Urkunde for "nachgewiesene Ausbildung im Gebirgsdienst". During the war, he was a skier, not a Mountain climber.

By the way, is that your Bavarian Polizeibergf�hre badge pictured at the top of the thread? Is it also marked "Bayern" at the bottom of the badge? I thought perhaps there might have been a variation in production.

quote:

Originally posted by JWotka:About right for what? What do you think the Edelweiss Abzeichen was? The sewn-on stamped metal flower? This post war Bavarian police officer received the Urkunde for "nachgewiesene Ausbildung im Gebirgsdienst". During the war, he was a skier, not a Mountain climber.

The Edelweiss insignia would have been worn on the Bergm�tze by the members of the Bavarian Polizei Bergf�hrer. Your award doucument would have been for having passed the mountain training course.

Unlike their wartime counterparts, the Bergf�hrer were both skiers / mountain climbers since their civilian duties mainly comprise mountain rescues. Later, the qualification badge reflected this as you can see the Edelweiss is superimposed over a mountaineers tool and skies.

Andrew

Well, what a let down. A post war graduate of Bavarian police mountain training received an Urkunde to receive and wear the aluminum Edelweiss badge on his moutain cap? That was considered a piece of uniform insignia in the III Reich.

And what did we say was the difference between III Reich and post war Edelweiss? The former had five holes for attachment and post war ones had three?

Do you know if there was an Urkunde for the later Polizei Bergfuhrer badge?

Joe

Well, don't be so dissappointed. Actually, if you follow German thinking, each award is significant in it's own right and stands on it's own merits. The officers war time service not withstanding, his post war qualification would have had to have been documented and recorded. As I have come to learn, paperwork and proper documentation is a key component of German organization.

The officers war time service would have fallen under TR documentation. Subsequently his post war qualifications would have fallen under Bavarian administration. While I am sure that his mountaineering skills would not have been questioned, they still would have needed to document this official qualification for the officers personal folder with the Landespolizei administration.

So that would explain the "awarding" of the Urkunde for the Edelweiss Abzeichen. In all honesty, he probably wore the TR edelweiss all along on his bergmutze. The award was just a record keeping formality.

And yes, it has been my experience that all official qualification badges have a paper document, even if just at the local level. I had a friend, since deceased, who gave me his "English Spoken" badge and Award document. He laughed and said that he had been speaking English since childhood, but it took the police twenty years to recognize it.

Regarding your question about the differences both my BGS & Bavarian Edelweiss' have four holes (3 on the petals and 1 on the stem) for attaching.

Andrew

Gents,

Just a thought about paperwork and proper documentation in the German Police system. I absolutly agree that the Germans are anal-retentive about orderly paperwork. Your papers must be in order!

I recall riding around with a couple of Berlin plain cloths policemen and going to headquarters to look at the (then) new E-911 dispatch system for Berlin. In order to get in, we had to first place a call to HQ and get approval from a General Officer. When we arrived, the ubiquitous female police guard with her machine-gun would not let us in the parking lot without the proper pass. The guys I was with showed every ID they had and then pulled out a plastic sheet of various passes until the lady cop found one that she liked and let us pass. Same thing when we were trapped in the locked foyer until we all produced proper ID to the proper person. Alles in Ordnung.

I know that award and qualification documentation was tied to pay, promotions, assignments, etc. so it is very important to policemen. This qualification may have been important enough to issue an Urkunde for just that reason. I know that my department had skill incentive pay that required written documentation in order to receive extra pay above a topped out base pay. You could receive extra pay for skills such as being an EMT, Rangemaster/Armorer, Intoxalizer operator, etc. This little insignia worn on the cap may have been important to the policeman for just that reason.

George

Ja,ja, Alles in Ordnung.Except they don't want to keep those papers around too long and they throw away the records to quickly I think. At least that is what some of those on the job over there say.

I understand what you mean George, but the Urkunde was dated only a couple of months after the war ended.What could they have made to issue in the elapsed time? I bet if they handed out the Edelweiss insignia, it was war time production. Neat and clean and no swastikas.

Ok everyone need your opinions.

Would this example of the bevo edelweiss cuff insignia have been worn by the polizei? And if so, what time period?

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by JWotka:
I understand what you mean George, but the Urkunde was dated only a couple of months after the war ended.What could they have made to issue in the elapsed time? I bet if they handed out the Edelweiss insignia, it was war time production. Neat and clean and no swastikas.

Joe

I doubt that a new edelweiss badge was ever even issued and if it was I think your right that it was probably a war time production piece. This was probably just an administrative award. Protocol would have had to be maintained, and if you have an officer assigned to mountain patrol, there would have had to have been something delineating his qualifications to be in that position.

Like George alluded to in his post, their might have even been a pay stipend attached to the qualification. What we referred to as "hazardous duty pay".

Andrew

Here is the illustration of the Polizei Edelweiss Uniformabzeichen shown in Dr. Kleitmann's monograph on the subject published in the 1960s.

Joe thanks for posting the Officer / NCO edelweiss photos. Very nice indeed. I especially like the detailing on the Off. version, although I guess that is to be expected.

Does anyone know if the bevo version would have been used later in the war ? Or was the bevo version strictly used by another military service branch ?

Andrew