UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons The BCN Bayonet Forum KS98 Pommel Etch

Can somebody tell me whether there are legitimate dress bayonets with the standard Eickhorn pommel etches made by manufacturers other than Eickhorn. I realise that makers other than Eick draw suspiscion but is this a hard and fast rule?.
Would other makers "HOLLER" for example, have their own in-house version or would they have bought in the blanks from Eick with the etch already in place?.

I have seen several with other TM's and most have been HAND engraved (may have been period done but who knows for sure).

There is a big difference between the Eickhorn pommel etches verses the hand engraved ones. The quality is not there.

I don't think anyone has period references showing other makers having this option.

Degens,

I agree with Terry, I don't believe I've ever seen a correct Eick pommel etch on another maker marked bayonet. I do know Eickhorn was very tight with their proprietary etches on the blades so it would figure they would be the same with their pommel etches. I would also reiterate that the hand etched pommels I've seen have lacked a lot of the quality of the Eick etched ones. Wayne would know for sure though.

Thanks chaps,
There not much info on pommel etches in the archives, and Waynes book has a good example of what to look for. I was curious to know if any other legit makers had ever been shown , I remember reading a post from Houston on another thread regarding the possibility of non-Eick etches but cant find it now .
I did like your example though Terry .

Degens,

The truth of the matter is that pommel ETCHES from any manufacture (only five for etched dress bayonets) are VERY RARE to find. If you find one however, usually it's an Eickhorn example cuz Eickhorn was the ONLY company that offered (depicted) the pommel etches in there catalog. Across the country with all the collections I had seen the only true pommel etch found is in my book. The reproduction Artillery pommel etch I use in my book came from a very reputable dealer who thought it was real. Because of their scarcity it is sometimes easy to convience ourselves that a poor depiction of a pommel etch is real simply because they are just so hard to find that we have nothing to compare to, which brings me (finally) to the point of this post. I would suggest that the large companies like Holler probably did have templets for pommel etches but the orders for such an etch were soooo rare
(because it would have been a Special Order that would take a lot of time to complete, also the retailer probably would not offer such an order because they wanted to sell what that had already on display) they may have simply discountinued the offer because it would have just taken too much time to produce. As mentioned many times in my book, Eickhorn did NOT loan, give or accept ANY other images other than there own. And, only distributors carrying Eickhorn dress bayonets were priviledged to have the Eickhorn inserts in the Eickhorn product.

Just use common sense when looking at a pommel etch. Is it an ETCH or is the image stamped in.
Also examine the image for obvious image distortions. Solingen Etchers were NOT sloppy workers. I hope this helps. See you at the MAX.

Von Ryan

Wayne,
I would appreciate your opinion of this pommel etch. I aquired this directly from a veteran in the 1960's. I thought it a little unusual at the time because it is an Eickhorn blade and the etch doesn't show in the Eickhorn Kundendienst. This same picture appears on pg. 235 of Angolia's old dagger book. He shows several bayonets of mine but mistakenly attributed them to someone else.

Von Ryan, very intersting to discuss these pomel "etchings" with you. I have seen at least two without any doubt period ones and did examine them carefully. Both were the "simple" army eagle. BTW it is exactly the same motive (in each detail) which sometimes (was at request) does appear on the otherwise smooth "Einheitssäbel" from EICKHORN.
Imo and due to what I have seen those eagles (on the pommel of the bayonets and the crossguard of the sabre) were stamped, not etched, then nickeled.
For sure not engraved. Most fakes (if not all) are engraved and therefore easily to detect for anybody who has seen the right thing.
What let you think that the emblem is etched, not stamped?

Danny, Danny, do you have my book? If not I'll be happy to send you one....On page 114 is the famous Gulls Etch. Due to poor sales or just not to dupilicate the Luft line,this etch was deleated from the line when the Luft. Eagle within the wreath was introduced (1938) In short what you question is a minty ETCHED pommel that is 100% correct. If you should determine that this pommel etch IS not right with you I'd appreciate a chance to purchase it.
Meanwhile, get "the book".

Von Ryan

Wontan,

I agree with 50% of your analysis. I believe that Eickhorn DID STAMP the eagle into the pommel of many Eickhorn (that is Eickhorn) dress bayonets. The problem as I see it is that Eickhorn does not picture ANY image in a STAMPED form within their cataloges. While composing the book I wanted to stay within what was published at the time, and try not to speculate with opinion other forms of the pommel etch. It is also interesting that whenever I see a STAMPED eagle it is always the Wehrmacht eagle and not any other eagle or image. Also I have noticed, and perhaps you guys can weigh in here, that the Eickhorn STAMPED eagle is ALWAYS on an Eickhorn dress bayonet indicating that it was an Eickhorn protected image. Was this helpful?

Von Ryan

Wayne, Wayne - do I detect a hint of arrogance here?
Yes I have your book but don't live in it. Thanks for pointing out the page number.
No, it's not for sale. I was not questioning the authenticity of the piece.
Best Regards
Danny Danny

Von Ryan, thank yo about your thoughts on the matter. Imo EICKHORN did stamp all their different pommel motives.

Danny, Danny no arrogance I promise. I just admire these items so much that I think just EVERYBODY lives and breaths etched dress bayonets. What's live'n for if not to see beautiful things!!!

Wotan: Have you seen ANY other STAMPED pommel designs that Eickhorn originally etched other than the Wehrmacht Eagle??? If so, got a picture, I'd love to see it.

Von Ryan

From what I can see in the pic I think also Denny Gaither´s pommel motive is stamped.
When you do examine the adorned pommels of early HJs (those with the blade etch in gothic script and the different true pommel etches like HJ-Badge or HJ-flag) and PSS Bajonets (true pommel and crossguard etches, hand enhanced) always the contours are left and all the background is etched away. Here it is always contrary, the background is here and the motive (imo) stamped into the pommel. That is the difference in the manufacturing process.
All those (truely)engraved pommels of dress bajonets I could observe have been simple copies of motives of (real) EICKHORN stamps and therefore (imo) highly spurious or even sure fake/post war applied.
Just my thoughts due to my observations and examinations.

wontan,

I've read your post a few times, and quite honestly I'm not sure exactly what you are saying. In the Pommel etch area of my book
page 55 I show a correct pommel etching of the Helmet and Crossed Rifles Eickhorn motif. This IS a correct etch. The etch Denny has on his pommel IS a correct Eickhorn motif etch. Please SHOW me what you are implying is or is not, a pommel ETCH on a DRESS bayonet. Since the book has been published I have also SEEN the Wehrmacht Eagle in ETCH form on a dress bayonet pommel, however it continues to be a very rare option seldom seen. Take a look at the Deluxe etched dress bayonet pommel page 70. THIS was a VERY extensive presentation from the Holler Company. This IS an ETCH and is not stamped or a hand enhanced pommel. This etch took a great deal of work to produce as the template had to be wound around the pommel to create the effect seen. If you have examples of what you are referring to I'd like to see them. Take care

Von Ryan

Just for reference.

Thanks Terry, that IS a stamped, NOT ETCHED example. The form I referred to in the last two posts.

VR

The STAMPED pommel must be ultra rare--I have seen several etched pommels but I just can't recall seeing the stamped type in over 50 years of looking. I have also seen a very few original etched pommels that were not Eickhorn or Eickhorn style. WKC made an Imperial dress Bavarian bayonet -triple etched -with the fleur- de- lis type pannels-and with the Bavarian motto on both sides--I have seen two or three of these--so Eickhorn did not "own" or control this pattern --at least at that time. The point is that if you think you have seen everything and know "all there is to know" about a Third Reich or Imperial subject or any other for that matter-you don't. It ain't all in books--that's for sure.

The Book refers to dress bayonet etches produced between 1933 and 1945 and has NOTHING to do with the Imerial period. Only Eickhorn used this pattern during this time frame. In thirty years of collecting myself I have not seen any Fleur-de-lis in any bookend other than Eickhorn dress bayonets during the period mentioned. Yes, proving that we (all of us) do not know everything there is to know about that period. Just looking at Terry's example and compairing it to the KNOWN pommel etch that Eickhorn produced it is easy to see the differences in the two types. Simple as that.

Von Ryan

Perhaps I have not seen all but I ONLY have seen the stamped version of the eagle for several times, I do not know any etched version.
Von Ryan, the pommel motive on pg 55 bottom of your book is for sure an engraved one and, as you stated yourself in the book, is postwar.
For myself I already have thought over several times before the pg 55 top picture "crossed rifles with helmet". Although it is quite well done and it MIGHT be an original and etched motive I have to admit (only my personal ! opinion) that I don´t like it. I would like to see it in a stamped version to love it much much more.
TKissinger´s pommel is a "textbook" one and stamped. Without any doubt original/period.
In my opinion, what I can see from the pic, for me Denny Gaither´s pommel is also STAMPED. But for final decision on this one (etched or stamped) I would like a close up. To avoid any misunderstandings: I too do believe that Denny Gaither´s Bajonet is original/period without any doubt.
The same motives ON THE BLADES are ALL ETCHED without any doubt.
To express once more the difference between etching and stamping: Take a close look on an EICKHORN etched eagle on a blade and the stampd version on TKISSINGERS stamped one. The one is the negative of the other (or the other way round). The same for Denny Gaither´s motive and the corresponding blade etch pg 114 in Von Rayan´s book.
I am sorry that I cannot describe better and in a shorter way.

At this place I also want to thank you, Von Rayan, having written one (if not THE one) of the most interesting, informative and educational books in our beloved hobby!

wotan,

The Crossed Rifles over Helmet pommel etch shown in the book IS a CORRECT etched pommel.
Have you seen any other Eickhorn pommel stamping OTHER than the Eagle that Terry shows above? The Eagle on Terry's pommel is MUCH deeper and doesn't have nearly the detail that you would normally see in an ETCHED Eagle example. However, saying that, I DO AGREE that they are an pre-45 Eickhorn pommel relief. I have never seen the Gulls, Crossed Rifles, Panzer or Eagle within the Wreath motif or ANY other known Eickhorn motif in the same stamped form of Terrys above. If anyone has one out there in Etched Dress Bayonetland please post a picture. See you at the MAX.

Von Ryan

wotan,
On a more private note, many thanks for your kind words about the book. I very much appreciate your generosity of spirit.

Wayne

OK, its turned up and below is the reason for starting the post. Having this in hand there is no doubt in my mind that it is original, dont be fooled by the pictures, this is small and the detailing is exquisite. I have used Waynes page for comparison and I hope he does not mind ( can remove if he does ), please bear in mind there are legitimate reasons for slight differences in the etch....ITS NOT EICKHORN.
This etch appears on a WKC knights head only logo KS98. It should provoke some interesting debate as there are obviously differences of opinions on what is correct. Can post more pictures if required >

You are right it doesn't look Eickhorn. There are just to many differences. I have seen some of these done on Eickhorn blades to make you think they are orginal. So could it be period done, who knows. My question is how well will it resale?????

To me it doesn't look stamped or etched. Would need to see it up close.

Probably the hardest thing I have had to photograph, how close do you want to go Terry . I was hoping the experts could tell me if it is etched or stamped, and I appreciate you need to have the thing in hand to make an informed descision, its certainly set well into the plating, with no signs of damage that you would expect to the plating if it was added later. I have sat it alongside an EK to give it some scale, theres no way this is hand etched!

Degens

I am glad you started this post, its great to learn more about these.

Now that is one of the best close-up pictures ever posted. Wayne and some of the other experts have seen more of these so I am going to pass the buck to them.

Does the metal around the lines and dots seem to be higher than the rest of the surface. If it is doesn't that indicate it was probably done after the plating process. The one I pictured must have been done before for there is a lack of the high medal.

Degens,

For sure this is an odd pommel marking on this WKC KS98. I can't tell how it is applied either. It is obviously not an Eickhorn pommel etch. Could it be postwar photo engraved?

OK, the question of stamped or etched application. First, this WKC bayonet pommel embellishment is not the same as the Eickhorn in either method of application or exact pattern style. This makes me concerned about the originalilty of this particular bayonet pommel marking. Second, I can see Eickhorn stamping the rather small eagle on the flat of the pommel but how can one stamp the wider designs, with a wreath, on the curved surface of the pommel? This makes me think they are normally etched.

Here is an example of the same Eickhorn pommel etch on an Eickhorn KS98. Forgive my poor photographic skills. I agree with you that these things are almost impossible to photograph decently.

George

Here is a closeup of the same etched device on the pommel of this KS98. What I am trying to show here is the curve of the pommel and the depth of etch that is maintained from side to side.

George

Finally, here is a closeup of the same device etched on the blade of this Eickhorn KS98 with the etched pommel. I believe this is a "textbook example" of what this Eickhorn bayonet should look like.

I hope this is helpful to the discussion.

George

George

If you look at stamping on cross guards you can see how a flat stamp goes in deep at the highest point and shallow at the ends.

Could they have had a curved stamp????
Could the design been molded in???
Could they used a roller stamping????
Could it have been etched in???

Where I work we do some acid etching and I think it could have been done that way, but as I have said before I haven't seen enough good ones(most have been post war enhancements) to know.

Terry,
The contours are completely beneath the surface of the plating, the etch feels inset with no raised surfaces. The thing to remember here is all pictures with the exception of the first, that I show are digitally enhanced by the camera and do not show the true intended visual perspective of the motto.
George, beautifull example of how an Eickhorn etch should look and my compliments on the photography, would love to know how many attempts it took .
The example I show has consistent depth across the etch, which in my opinion writes off stamping as you say, photo etching I know nothing about, what would be used as a template? is it possible to photo etch a curved surface?.
In hand this thig has me totally convinced, to the point I am willing to send it on a holiday if necessary. The quality on post war etches just do not match up. The other points to note are the double / bordered pattern to the etch versus the single line etch to the Eick, differences in manufacturer or in application?, again this is not visible to the eye, only once enhanced.

Very interesting thread, stunning pics, much information.
Degens, is your pommel motive plated within the grooves?

Wotan,
From what I can tell...yes, take a look at picture 4 with the EK, this more closely depicts the finish to the grooves, the other pictures I was trying to use the shadow from the natural light to make the etch show up !.

Well, here goes.... First the WKC pommel image doesn't seem to be large enough or centered correctly. The Eickhorn etches as the examples pictured above and in my book are all large depictions and properly centered on the pommel. Second and more importantly, as you see in my book, WKC purchased there Extra-Seitengewehres from the F.W.Holler firm. Eickhorn didn't sell their etched dress bayonets to WKC or ANY other Solingen Company that I am aware of, only to DISTRIBUTORS. That's why the association page 28 is so important. Now, if someone walked up to me with this pommel at a show I couldn't believe this etching template was of Eickhorn production and since none of the five dress bayonet etching companies used the same inserts or for that matter even the lettering fonts it would not be possible for me to conclude that this was a legitimate pre-45 manufactured item. And as already mentioned, the quality of the WKC etch is "suspect" just by it's lack of detail. Strike THREE. Hope that helps...
See you at the MAX.

Von Ryan

Wayne,
Thanks for the assessment, and point taken with regard to the exclusivity of the Eickhorn pattern. I was in no way trying to pass this off as a legit eickhorn etch, rather the possibility of an etch by a different company, albeit the same pattern.
Regards

Geez, I love this stuff!!!!

VR

Degens,

Thanks for starting this thread, it's most informative. Great insights and comments gentlemen.

Only one more comment about this thread from me.
I was just informed tonight that a friend purchased an Eickhorn etched dress bayonet with the catalog Nr. 3219 (two eagles) and an ARTILLERY 88 gun ETCH on the pommel. As I have never seen an example of this, I asked if the etch looked like the Crossed Rifles and Helmet form in my book. He said it was exactly like the pommel etch in the book only of course, it was the 88 Gun instead. A wonderful find which again shows Eickhorn staying with their own patterns. Thank you gentlemen for allowing me to remark on this incredible find. See you at the MAX.

Von Ryan

Hope it was'nt this one .

Artillery Etch

Actually I was finished with this thread until I saw this. This is a poor representation of Eickhorns Cannon motif. It is also pictured on my pommel page. Degens, I can't believe you want to ruin my day. Feeling dejected and sad now....I must go to bed. A tear is now forming at the edge of my eye.

VR

About 10-12 years ago I seen one of these at the MAX show and took it to Ron Weinand to see what he thought, well he clued me in on what to look for, so thanks again Ron.

Yep, I agree with Wayne and Terry and Degens on these engraved pommels. While some pommels were certainly engraved with initials and such during the time of use, these engraved Eickhorn style pommel etches are fakes. Wasted talent I am afraid... these fakers could probably make decent money as tatoo artists if they applied themselves to legitimate work.

This bayonet that Degens links to most certainly did not come from the factory (any factory) this way. Too bad that a fool and his money are soon parted in this hobby.

Gents,

I found another fake pommel etch while browsing an auction site today. This one is on what appears to be an original Wingen KS98.

The pommel is engraved with a copy of the Panzer etch. Looks like it might be the same handiwork as the Artillery engraving.

George