UBB.threads Forums General Interest Restoration, Conservation, and Maintenance Forum Help restoring burnishing

What techniques or products can be used to reapply black burnishing to SA daggers?

I am not aware of any method to accomplish this.

The original darkening agent was a chemical applied to both the motto and makers mark before the final fine grinding of the blade. Formulas varied to produce different effects from intense black (such a Boker) to light gray. It was put on with a big brush or dauber and the final grinding removed everything on the surface but left the chemical in the lower areas of the motto/mark. (*)

The problem with replicating this, besides finding the chemical, is that you would have to regrind the blade.

I have seen mottos enhanced with Magic Marker.

As far as period stuff (maybe)I have seen some enhanced with paint and one that was done very nicely with black enamel put in the motto.

Dave

(*) The process of darkening and final grinding is my opinion, rather than anything I can prove. I would greatly welcome proof of other methods.

What about bluing agents used by gunsmiths? I have heard of a product called "cold blue". Anyone have experience with this stuff?

Finding a bluing or blacking agent is not the problem.

The challenge is getting evenly in the motto and no where else because it does not come off. This is why the factories just brushed the stuff on and let the final grind take off the stain on the rest of the blade.

Cold blue works great if you are very steady or work with 5 to 10x power eye loupes for perfect application.

Hi guys,

The color left in the etched lettering is neutralised corrosion left by the acid etching process. A wax stencil was placed on a fully polished blade and then the exposed areas etched with acid.After etching the acid was neutralised and the wax removed. In some cases additional darkening was added as in some Boker examples. I'm not sure if this was accomplished by black paint or just a clear lacquer applied to seal the etched area causing the finish to darken considerably.

The frost left in the recesses of the letters are very fragile as they are the remains of microscopically corroded metal.

Burnishing on the other hand is a rubbing or in some cases scrapping to bring out the highlights of an object that has been darkened or plated. Burnishing is done with a hardened, highly polished steel tool. The word 'burnishing' has had it's original process and meaning incorrectly applied to something it's not. Just like the word 'anodising' is incorrectly used to describe the finish and process used on early blued or browned SS and SA dagger scabbards.

The final color was usually dependant on the quality of the steel as well as the type, strength and temperature of the acid used.

Just some thoughts.

Tony

Guys,

I have done alot of cold bluing on many different things. It will be very easy to make a mess of the motto, trying to use cold bluing agent.

The area needs to be very clean (I beadblast my stuff) then you need to apply the blue and leave for one minute, then rinse with luke-warm water! (you feel like dipping your dagger in water??) It will be too easy to accidentally get some blue outside of the motto area.....and then what will you do?? This cold blue agent is acid and eats itself into the metal.

I was thinking about another solution. My friends younger brother was into this "Warhammer" table top game, where you need to buy all these different figures and then paint them. Some guys are true artists when it comes to painting these small figures, and I even tried it myself. They use a special black shading paint they use, which I think we could use for making the motto�s darker. This is what the Warhammer online store says about it:

"Citadel Colour Inks are just the thing for shading your basecoats, just thin down the ink with a little water and paint on the miniature. The ink will flow into all the folds and crevices - instant shading"

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?...00810&GameNav=300810

I am really interested in trying this on a beat up dagger and see how the results are, but I dont have a beat up dagger. Is any forum member willing to try this and show us the results?

Regards

Hinrik

I would most respectfully suggest a somewhat different scenario with some of the elements from those already posted.

Factory etched German sword (and bayonet) blades were fully finished and polished before etching. To polish them after etching would in all probability remove at least some of the gray nitric acid residue that was left from the etching process. This is not seen on untouched German sword or bayonet blades.

As Tony mentioned the etched design for a sword (or bayonet) blade used a wax mask/stencil/protect - whatever, which was applied to the blade (one time use) and protected the parts that were not to be acid etched. The wax masks were premade from a pattern/stencil usually in quantity and on better quality blades the masks were cleaned up while on the blade to correct any imperfections. After etching the mask was removed. This process is also how the presentation and customized examples were made which employed specialists some being better than others.

The Germans had a large number of cold bluing formulas that were used in the gun making trade. After a dagger blade is etched it would be very simple, efficient, and cost effective to leave the wax mask in place after etching and apply a cold bluing formula to the blade if it was desired to darken the etching. And after bluing the etch, the mask would simply be removed like it would have been originally.

That does not mean that a dagger blade could not be polished or repolished after the etching and/or bluing. But why do that and risk screwing up the etching if it not necessary to do so? They did not do it for swords or bayonets so why would they make an exception for daggers??

PS: While I think things should ordinarily be left with whatever original finish is present - I would lean toward using some kind of non chemically reactive darkening agent. That can be removed by something not any stronger than lacquer thinner if it becomes necessary at a later date (Like Hinrik�s idea?). Cold blued guns are usually detectable. And those where the individual doing the cold bluing messed up can be pretty awful. And to have to repolish a blade or try to get cold bluing out of the etching if it doesn't look right further destroys the item's originality. And might be a lot worse than if the item had just been left alone. FP

I have restored the burnishing with fairly good results using Super Blue and a fine brush (for picture painting). Using small scissors I cut the hairs of the brush to form a fine point. The brush shouldn't be too wetted with the bluing solution when applied. I also keep a Q-tip dipped in simichrome handy to correct any 'errors' immediately. Then I apply gun oil with a piece of cotton which I subsequently wipe off with a rag.

Hey Manfred we must be on the same wavelength here, because that's pretty much how I do it.

Hinrik... I am pleased to report to you that the Warhammer ink works beautifully! Thanks for the tip. You need a loupe and a steady hand but the results are excellent.

A portion of the burnishing on this dagger was inadvertently damaged by simichrome. I wish I had taken before and after pics, but unfortunately I only have the "after" pics. Here is the overall shot.

Here is a shot of a protion of the motto that was unaffected by the simichrome.

Here is a portion treated with the Warhammer ink.

Another portion treated with the Warhammer ink.

Skyline,

That looks fine, and even if you want later, its easy to remove it.

If you are a "magician" like Manfred, then sure the bluing looks great. But I dont think all of us here are that good working with a Q-tip and a customised brush...haha..so that is why I did not recommend it.

Regards

Hinrik

Skyline Drive / Hinrik

I assume it doesn't make any difference if you were to apply this procedure to an SS dagger?

From the us.games-workshop.com page... do you use the "chaos black" from the paint list or "tin blitz" from the metallics list?

What water to paint ratio should you use for best results?

If you make a mistake, how do you fix it?

Or... do you just use the black ink under the "inks and empty paint pot" section?

I used black ink diluted with water. Maybe 75% ink to 25% water. Full strenghth is a bit too black. I used a flat toothpick with the pointed end to apply. If any got outside of the motto I was able to remove it by rubbing th area with the flat potion of the toothpick. You need to let your mistakes set for a few moments or it will be too wet and you will just smear it around. Once it sets up to the point where it's tacky (not completely dried) it scapes off fairly easily.

I think you did a heck of nice job here and taught us a lot! Thanks!

Mark

I agree, this is fantastic work! It's certainly got me inspired.

Skyline Drive... I'm interested to know if you did anything to the makers mark or did you leave it altogether?

If you did try, can you please post some pics?

I did nothing to the maker mark, as it was unaffected.

Skyline Drive... I just had a shot myself on an old dagger. That Warhammer ink is the dog's bollocks. If you happen to go outside of the etching, it comes off so easily. You defiantly need to use a jewelers loop though, no matter how good your eyes are.

Personally, I wouldn't use it on any dagger. This kind of restoration seems to be only appropriate for daggers that had original black burnishing. The rest of the dagger should be in such a condition that complete blackened burnishing does not appear out of place. My guess is that only 10-15% of all of the makers did this, and even then not consistently. I also think there may have been more than one method to do this. On some daggers it looks like the blackening was a part of the etching process. On others it looks like something was applied after the etching.

Hello Skyline ,I thouht there was only 3 or 4 makers blackened the motto and maker mark,Regards nats

you can't beat the real thing ,Gebr Bohme motto

Stan that just a guestimate, probably way off. In addition to the maker you mention I think all of the Suhl makers did. I have a David Malsch and a Carl Wusthof with very dark mottos. I believe I have seen Gebr Heller, Malsch and Ambronn, Macero and even Eickhorns with very dark or blackened mottos. I'm sure there are more. Nice blade by the way!

One more thought about the blades with black burnishing. It seems to me that they have distinctive fine crossgraining as opposed to the wide crossgraining or polished blades you see with light etches. My theory is that the fine crossgraining reduces the glare and disperses the reflected light differently to produce more of a "white" blade that enhances the blackened motto. Just an observation.

Hello skyline,My Aug. Merten is very dark as well,and I have also seen an F.Dick with a black motto Regards Stan

Stan can you post a closeup of the etch on your
Gebr Bohme?

I remembered another maker with a very black etch... Aesculap.

Hi Skyline nice job on your dagger, would you recommend only trying this on a beater or one of my better daggers, and also after applying the ink does it dry quickly and is it hard to tell it was applied recently.
Thanks.

I tried it on an old beater, I'll post a pic when I get a chance.

The ink/paint dries relatively quickly. If you use a loop, you can easily see if you've gone outside of the lines or haven't gone far enough. There is no problems getting any excess off.

If you thin the paint out or don't heavily apply it, it doesn't make the etching look too dark.

The great thing is, if you don't like it or you make a complete balls up of it, you can remove it all, no problems at all.

The Warcraft supplies department has never been so busy. They must think there is a craze for painting their models completely black!.
Ive ordered 6 litres

slayer... I don't have any beaters so I tried it on a nice dagger. I don't think that anyone could tell the restored portion from the original by looking at it. It appears to be an exact match. However, I doubt that this would be convincing as original on a beater for obvious reasons.

Degens if you do get any make sure you get the ink, not the paint.

I thought of yet another maker that had blackened mottos... August Bickel.

I checked, I used ink aswell, not paint. I had an old beater which this type of work really shouldn't be done, (cause it doesn't match) and a whole bunch of other reasons. Same with using semichrome on the blade but the dagger didn't cost me much and I need to do these things for myself to have my own opinion.

pic 2

No question about it... the stuff does work well.

My attempt on my dagger so far Ive only done the first part of the motto on my Haenel, what do you think?

Also I have a EP&S partial Rohm how dark were the mottos on these and was the Rohm inscription darekened at all?

another,

one more,

Very intresting post !
I did some modelpainting in my younger days (not so long ago)
So this should be an easy fix for some of the daggers I own.

i would like to add some extra information on the modelpainting techniques that can be used to darken or even lighten (if your restoration comes out to dark) some of your motos.

Some techniques used in modelpainting are :
washing and dry-brushing.

Washes:
A wash is a thin paint that washes into the nooks and crannies on the model (in addition to tinting the flat areas) and it can add a dramatic depth to miniatures.

The bad news is that after all that care you took to get a good finish at the previous stage, the application of washes is likely to make it look awful and it's only after the later dry brushing stage that the results really start to shine though. Getting used to the results of the washing stage and knowing when to stop is a matter of experience I'm afraid.

Prepare the wash by thinning the paint with something like 2 parts thinner to 1 part paint. Use a brush to 'flow' this onto the model. Hold model such that the surface that you're working on is horizontal so that you can control how the wash flows.

Let the wash dry and remember that you can always add a second or third coat of wash if the first was too light so err on the side of caution.

When trying to decide on a wash colour for the purpose of enhancing shadows, start by deciding if the base colour is 'warm', like red and yellow, or 'cool', like green and blue. Dark brown makes a good wash for warm colours while black does a good job on cooler colours. For cool colours, you can also use darker shades of the base colour. This usually does not work as well for warm colours.

Another use for washes is to simulate the effects of mud and other gunge which builds up in crevices and in this case you need to choose a colour that best matches your gunge of choice.

Dry Brushing
What washes do for the crevices, dry brushing does for the raised areas. It has two main purposes. The first is to create highlights to counteract the shadows and the second is to simulate wear and tear, as it's the raised areas that always suffer most.

The technique is fairly simple: take an old brush (because this is harsh treatment for a brush and if the brush you use isn't considered old, it soon will be) and dip it into the paint. Now wipe the brush across a piece of kitchen paper until only a faint line of paint comes off the brush. Now gently brush across an edge or high point of the model. This process is repeated to build up the highlights as required.

The trick is to dry the brush quite well on the paper. You can always add more paint to the model and only a very small amount of paint is needed to get the required effect.

For highlights it is best to use white paint or white tinted with a hint of the colour over which you will be dry brushing. For simulating wear you need to think in terms of what colour would show through. On a vehicle this may well be the silver colour of the metal. Bear in mind that damage in a non-wear intensive location will then tend to rust while in a high wear area the constant wear will keep the metal clean.


do some googling and you will find some nice examples of painted models.

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/howto/wash.htm