|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Gentlemen:
Who has Imperial German Uniform Tunics to show?
I think Imperial Tunics are often overlooked by collectors. Perhaps we can stimulate some discussion on the types of tunics and their insignia and construction?
Here is my first contribution. This is a Waffenrock for an Imperial Bavarian Gendarmerie NCO. The tunic is dunkelgrün while the piping is hochrot in color.
George
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
The tunic has full skirts with no pockets. It does have loops for a medal bar and is cut in the regulation style prior to 1912. The high collar is square cut with long gold litzen with a red stripe and gold metallic tresse along the edges. The shoulder boards are sewn down and are not removable. The plain copper buttons are the proper early large style.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Close up view of the long Imperial collar litzen.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Finally, a view of the back showing the Rock cut. Interestingly, the back is cut from three panels instead of four as there is no central seam down the back. I have seen this three panel pattern on Imperial tunics before. The skirt is cut with the usual box tails with six plain buttons.
Who has a tunic to add to this thread?
George
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Interior view of the tunic showing the construction.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468 |
Hi
I have a example of a field grey WWI german tunic.
It is a simplified m1910 em's tunic from the Bavarian foot artillery regiment. Dated 1915 and reg issue marks . Reason by calling it simplfied is the german army had to take short cuts in producing the volume of tunics needed in the start of the war. If you want to dive in collecting these first war tunics. Get copy of Marshall Daut video on Field grey uniforms of the Imperial Germany 1907-1918. It will go into detail on the styles of m1910 tunics to simplfied tunics to m1915 to pm1916 peace time tunics. Reason I can go on on this explaination.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468 |
Here is the picture of the tunic
Thanks Joe Semen
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468 |
Please note this a salty tunic. But that is what you want see in a em's tunic. Most of the surviving tunics are private purchase or Officer tunics. Reason they were left behind. Surviving examples of em's issue tunics are very diffcult to find.
Joe Semen
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Joe,
Thanks for posting your Bavarian Fuss Artillerie tunic. You are certainly right, these enlisted issue tunics are difficult to find today. Can we see a photo of the shoulderboards?
George
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468 |
Hi
Enclose is a picture of the simplefied shoulder strap. Notice the lack of regimental piping. And stiched directly on the shoulder. The Prussians stiched there simplified straps in the shoulder seams. Also note the size , it is narrower than the m1910 shoulder strap.
Thanks Joe
3.JPG (64.93 KB, 309 downloads)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Joe,
Thanks for the picture of the shoulder board. Yes, a very plain board. I was not aware of the difference in sewing techniques between the Prussians and Bavarians. Very good information.
If you will notice the shoulder board on my Bavarian Gendarmerie tunic you will see that while it is sewn into the seam it is not a loose board. That is to say that it is sewn down all around its edges and is not removable nor can straps be run underneath it.
George
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468 |
Please note, this technique (stiching of shoulder straps on the m1910 wartime simplefied tunics only, not the true m1910 or 1915/1916 tunics.Or prewar tunics like the one you have.
Joe Semen
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Joe,
I certainly appreciate this information. It is the little bits and pieces of technique and construction that I enjoy about uniform collecting.
Let me ask one other question about your tunic. I know that it is normal to have the black piping on the collar and cuffs and the red on the front flap on Bavarian Army tunics. Can you elaborate on why and when this was done? I don't think all matching color "Waffenfarbe" was introduced for the Army until after 1918; correct?
George
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468 |
Hi
This goes in depth here. As per 1914, m1910 tunics , front edging were poppy red exceptfor jager tunics and the cavalry branches. Then goes to edging colour of the shoulder straps vary from army corp in the infantry and field artillery to specific colour in the cavarly ,foot artillery ,engineers, train and on and on. To type of cuffs worn.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468 |
So each branch of service and corps had specfic type of tunic variation in style ,plus colour of piping.It goes in depth here , plus type of colour of buttons as well. I hope this kinda helps.The branch service piping came into effect with the new M1915/ M1916 field uniforms.
But this went to colour piping to solid colour shoulder straps too.Pick up a copy of the Book . The German Army, By Jurgen Kraus. This will answer all your questions. Thanks Joe Semen
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 468 |
Hi George
Please not my error, The Prussians on simplified m1910 the shoulder straps are sewn on top of the shoulder, and the Bavarian tunics into the shoulder seam.But on these tunics you can get variations as on this Bavarian foot artillery tunic. The shoulder strap is sewn on top of the shoulder seam.As the stiching matches the same stiching on the rest of the tunic.As with this wartime tunics you get variations. As front breast pockets on officers tunics you see once in awhile. I hope this helps you . Thanks Joe Semen
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 117
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 117 |
George For a detailed overview of the pipings used on tunics as from 1907, you can also have a look at volume 2 of the series published by Shiffer on Imperial uniforms : http://home.scarlet.be/~tse02026/Bookpage.htmIt also explains the differences of cuff design , button color, officer vs EM tunics, army tunics vs army officials, etc... JS
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Joe, Thanks for the information and follow-up. I do apprecaite it. I gave up on collecting Imperial military tunics years ago but I have continued to pick up a few Imperial police uniforms over the years. While they usually follow military regulations, some techniques of constuction differ. I think this is because they are often tailor made instead of factory manufactured. I still like these tunics though.  George
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900 |
Here is another one, an imperial "Zahlmeister"-tunic, Prussia, 1914. Dark blue over all with white pipings. Kolibri
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Kolibri,
A very nice Paymaster tunic. Could we see a shot of the shoulder boards? Did these tunics sometimes have "Beamte" style collar tabs?
George
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900 |
This is a shot of one shoulderboard. Kolibri
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900 |
Orpo, i think, collar tabs were worn only on the fieldgrey paymaster tunics. Kolibri
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Kolibri,
Beautiful shoulder boards! Some have the Z device and some have the Wappen.
Thanks for the info on the collar tabs. It is a very nice tunic. Thanks for showing it.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900 |
A new one. J.R. 135, Diedenhofen, enlisted man.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900 |
Around 1914. Regards Kolibri
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,980 Likes: 4
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,980 Likes: 4 |
Dear Kolibri, The condition of this tunic is simply extraordinary, where do you find them? I'm fairly certain that I won't look this good when I'm near a hundred years old ...  Thanks for sharing, old buddy! Bill
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Kolibri,
Another very nice Infantry tunic. From the Second Company it seems.
Here is an interesting Imperial Polizei tunic. This one continued to be worn by the Württemberg Polizei during the time of the Weimar Republic but it had different shoulder boards during that time period. I have photographs of this tunic still being worn until the 1936 regulations made it obsolete.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
View of the back showing the split tail without buttons or a boxed tail.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
View of the shoulder boards for Sergeanten with crown. I think these tunics were also worn by the Bavarians, possibly the Ortspolizei. At least I have a Bavarian photo album of them being worn during the time of the Weimar Republic. The crown appears Bavarian to me and certainly not the Württemburg crest.
George
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900 |
Orpo,
thats a nice and interesting tunic.
It must be a very late imperial tunic, made in 1918. The style was unusual before. Is that correct?
Why are there no tunic buttons on the backside for the leather belt? Was it worn without any belt? Or is it possible that it is a tunic post 1918 - Weimar - and the shoulderboards were added later? But during the weimar area too the most tunics had these buttons on the backside.
Regards Kolibri
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Kolibri,
Yes, this style tunic is unusual and it seems to have been adopted by Württemberg in 1918. It appears that early tunics had the six button front and later ones had the eight button front. Since this tunic is not cut in the "Rock" style with a four panel back and a boxed tail there are no belt buttons in the back. There are belt hooks at the sides instead. It is certainly a transitional tunic style.
The tunic appears to be property marked to the Stuttgart Ortspolizei, which became the Schutzmannschaft during the time of the Weimar Republic. Unfortunately, there is no date of issue. Of course this tunic continued to be worn until 1936.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
I do think it is possible that the shoulder boards are incorrect Imperial ones. It is possible that an older policeman continued to wear his old shoulder boards (the tunic is named to a Wachtmeister and these are Wachtmeister rank shoulder boards) or it is possible they are simply earlier boards incorrectly placed on the tunic.
Here is a better view of the green boards showing the color.
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
The removable shoulder boards do seem to properly fit the tunic. Here is a view of the underside showing the complicated method of attachment. The button has a long hook that captures the tab and is inserted into a long cloth sleeve on the body of the tunic. So, this is the correct attachment for this particular tunic.
What are your thoughts?
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900 |
Orpo,
not easy to answer. I presume, that the whole tunic incl. the shoulderboards was made during the weimar-time, only the crowns are added later. The attachment of the shoulderboards looks imperial, but could also be weimar. Here is a copy of an old regulary from 1929 with two tunics. One of them looks very similar to yours (but has belt buttons). What do you think?
Kolibri
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809 |
Here now my 1910 Imperial Garde tunic .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809 |
Dress shoulder banjo board and silver bullion collar litzen .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809 |
Close-up of the board with #55.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809 |
Close-up of the collar silver bullion Garde Litzen. Note how far back they go !
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809 |
Bullion dress belt and gilted brass buckle.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809 |
Dress decoration bar ,etc .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809 |
Backside of the tunic . There are no interior markings !
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809 |
6 button back slot closure .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,809 |
Sorry , there was one wrong file posted . Here the close-up of the silver bullion dress Garde Collor litzen . Note how for back they go ! --AND it made for a very stiff collar! Hope you like my Garde tunic . Bernd
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,174 Likes: 1 |
bernd,
Simply outstanding thanks for showing it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Bernd,
I had forgotten about this outfit. I love the silver litzen on the collar and cuffs. Very nice needlework.
George
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900 |
This came in these days: Saxonia, private, Field-artillery-regiment 77 in nearly brandnew condition. Kolibri
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Kolibri,
An outstanding outfit. It is interesting that the bottom of the tunic is piped as well as the front. Is the color red or the lighter orange color that I see on my monitor? Very neat!
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 900 |
Orpo,
thanks for your friendly comment. The colour is red, not orange and the red piping at the bottom of the tunic is a saxonian speciality for all kind of troops (in prussia, bavaria etc. only for calvalry).
Note also the special saxonian shoulderboards.
Regards
Kolibri
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439 |
Great tunics guys~!
I still need a tunic for under this one.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5
|
|
OP
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,155 Likes: 5 |
Jerry,
Very nice with the IC on the breast. Also very hard to find with the pads intact. Is the armor or pad unit marked?
"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,889 Likes: 2
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,889 Likes: 2 |
Jerry, I've never seen this type of armor (at least no from the 20th century). What is it?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,439 |
Its called a "Curras", and I think most of them that were later worn by Germans in WW1 were captured form the French in the 1870/71 war.
I am not that "up" on the finer points of them, but when I had a chance to buy it, with that EK on it, I knew I had to have it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,889 Likes: 2
|
|
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,889 Likes: 2 |
Thanks Jerry. Is the EKI an 1870 or 1914? If it's an 1870 can you post good close up photos? I've wanted one but don't know how to tell good from bad on the 1870's.
|
|
|
|
Forums42
Topics31,670
Posts329,076
Members7,519
| |
Most Online5,900
Dec 19th, 2019
|
|
|
|
