UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum Herm. Rath Army sword, etc

Hi All, just picked up the Herman Rath army sword and wanted to share it, since its a maker not seen too often. Gilding is still very nice and original scabbard paint is about 95%. I got it at a decent price so eventhough I wasnt sure if the felt bag was original or not it didnt matter. Any thoughts on the bag? I tried a search but didnt come up with awhole lot.
opinions on the hanger also. Its not marked at all on the reverse.

Nice rig - congrats!

The bag and hanger look perfectly original to me.

It looks good to me as well. Very Nice!! FP

Very nice! The bag looks fine to me. Since Rath was a distributor and not a manufacture it would be of intrest to find out the maker. Your saber looks a lot like Richard Herder unattributed saber on page 86 of Angolia's sword book.

HI guys, thanks for the kind words on the sword. Was Rath a distributor or a maker. I always thought they made police swords and just did a few armys. Or, were they a distributor for all types of swords? Or a maker of police and a distributor for armys?

Dale,

You are right. This sword is a dead ringer for the Herder leopard head shown on page 86 of Angolia. No listed catalog number on this one.

Lar,

A good question. Rath had some sort of relationship to the SS/Police apparatus to supply swords. I suspect that Rath falls into the "assembler" or "supplier" catagory rather than a "maker" or simply a "dealer" slot. These categories are really not so neat and tidy as we sometimes tend to think. I fear we sometimes become to pedantic about this or that ferrel or frog stud type or grip wrap as often these bits and pieces came from third party suppliers who specialized in making such things.

You have a very nice period sword there in my humble opinion.

George

I would love to know more about the RATH firm. Did thy survive the war? One thing I do know is that RATH army swords are very rare.

Interesting twist here ORPO as I've always assumed the Rath firm was just a distributor but one with enough clout to get their names on the swords. It's really a shame so much information has been lost.
Dale: I for one have never seen any evidence to indicate the firm survived the War.
Jim

The Rath firm is interesting. The Polizei swords they supplied/marketed/produced had the SS Kulturzeichen runes within a diamond on the blades so they had some official relationship to the SS as a "supplier/vendor." Their name also appears on Heer swords such as this one shown by Lar. The same Heer sword with a Richard Herder marking as shown by Angolia with an etched blade.

I don't know the complete answer. What I do know is that various firms assembled swords but manufactured few, if any, parts. The best example of this practice is the Horstmann Company in the US. Horstmann imported, and bought locally, various parts and "produced" US swords with their name on them for over 100 years. Horstmann made some parts in house but most blades were imported from Solingen and Horstmann marked in-house. This may well be what we see with some "distributors" like Rath. I can't say for certain in this instance, but it is a good educated guess IMHO.

George

George:
I'm a little fuzzy about this so bear with me. I seem to remember from somewhere that Horstmann supplied cavalry sabers to the Union during the Civil war and had always assumed these were imported complete swords. I even sort of remember their being located in the Philadelphia area. Are you saying that this firm imported parts and did the assembly and perhaps some manufacturing here.
I find this very interesting!
Jim

Jim,

Yes, Horstmann is a good example of what went on with government purchasing during the Civil War. Leonard Garigliano studied Civil War contracting and published "Abstract, Review And Notes Regarding Principal Sword Contractors During The American Civil War" in 1983. Len's analysis showed that Horstmann supplied over 30,000 swords (including some parts and 2,500 scabbards) to the US Government during the war, including delivery continuing into 1866. This was through both Horstmann's New York and Philadelphia operations.

Horstmann supplied swords of all types under contract with quite a few Cavalry Sabres as you mention. I think their Navy Officer swords are a good example of their work. They typically have very distinctive scabbard mounts with straight cut angled brass mountings that they seemingly cast in-house. The blades typically look like Solingen products. You will also see this assembly occuring in period catalogs from Schulyer Hartley & Graham when they offered different blades of Solingen manufacture or domestic make or damascus steel. S H & G assembled these officer swords under their name. And, the case of Tiffany & Company is well known where Tiffany imported the Cavalry Sabres supplied to the Government and finished other high quality swords that they sold retail. The distinctive steel hilt Heavy Cavalry Sabres they supplied to the Government were made by P D Luneschloss in Solingen and marked with both PDL and Tiffany names on the ricasso in most instances.

There are other similar CW examples with Solingen marked blades in locally produced hilts bearing two "maker" names on the blades.

I think Rath, and some others, probably operated in a similar manner. This would help explain the sword that Lar has in relation to the seemingly indentical one that Angolia shows in his book. While it is possible that Rath simply bought the sword complete from Herder and resold it under their name it is also possible that Rath assembled the sword using Herder parts for the hilt. We may never know for certain.

George

Very interesting discussion. Thanks, everyone! Here's a wristbreaker marked Horstmann Phil that my Wife's Brother found in the walls of an old house in Marietta, GA. I think it may have belonged to the yankee that Miss O'hara killed.

Dale,

A very neat Horstmann 1840 Heavy Cavalry Sabre with a fascinating history. It might well be a pre-war sword that was Rebel used as well as a probable Yankee piece.

Horstmann made some very distinctive swords. For instance, here is a private purchase 1840 NCO sword with a turned down back guard and an etched blade. The turned down guard swords are often thought of as being USMC pieces and this guard is cast (not bent) in the downward position. The etched blade is also seldom seen and is no doubt pre-CW. The blade is stamped "Philadelphia" on one side and "Horstmann" on the other ricasso.

George

George:
Besides having a wonderful collection of swords of your own, the information that you have shared with us is absolutely remarkable and is greatly appreciated.
I can't remember anyone who has given us more instructive information on edged weapons.
Thanks,
Jack