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#158239 12/19/2007 07:15 AM
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This is supposed to be a Zeitner silver marking. I was presuming that the silver content was 800, as I was told but actually I can't figure it out myself. Would like to hear some opinions of the experts like Kingtiger. I would also be interested to know if these markings are faked.

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Another image.

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Hello Frederico,
Let me first apologize for missing this question. I am trying to locate a thread on the proof marks on silver items like this and I expect to lead you to it in a short while.

Mark Smile

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Here is the site...

www.925-1000.com/

Mark Big Grin

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Frederico , it is a Zeitner mark,,and yes its been reproduced many times..Usually the fake marks are 'cast in' when the piece is made. They really should be stamped in,,nice and clear. Also, from what I've seen, maybe 5 or so original Z pieces the silver content looked to be a 'special' looking stamp also. I of course haven't seen it all and they probably do have a regular looking number set..

This is an example of a fake Z. 'stamp'. this is cast in when the piece was made, silver content is an actual stamp though.

Some advice,,if you ever go onto one of the silver collecting forum sites never mention your piece is a nazi one. You might get an answer [and a nasty comment] and if you continue posting 3rd reich silver pieces you will be asked to stop!

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Thanks G, you are the real expert here and I am very glad you got involved.

Mark Cool

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Thanks to both of you. I will come back on this subject.

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Frederico,

I can't tell from your photo if this is a real or fake Zeitner mark, although it does appear to be stamped. I noticed that your photo is the same one you posted in Kingtiger's thread "Goering Wine Carafe from Carin Hall" from last year. In that thread JWotka posted a photo of a silver bowl with a Zeitner mark which appears to have a special stamp along with a 935 silver content.

What is the reason for the repost? Maybe I can help.

Best regards,
Carinhall

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Hello Carinhall!

I'm glad you are involved as well..I was in rare air on this one...This is more up your alley!

Mark Cool

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Mark, thanks, but no expert here..Just an enthusiast like yourself. I just happen to have been looking into Z. marks last year for my project...

There's plenty of fake 3rd reich silver. All stamped up and ready to play..I can just make the comment that the Z. marks I've seen have had a special content mark as well, and,,an art deco looking 'Berlin' on the larger pieces. Doesn't mean its always like that though..
Best bet,find some original pieces about the same size, year and start your comparing!

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Mark, Gaspare and Carinhall,

Thanks for your involvement. The reason for posting it is that it is the mark that is on a Goering object that I own and that I posted before on the forum. I have some doubts on the markings, in particular when I compare it with the nice markings of Mark's wine carafe. My markings are much less clear and I can't figure out the silver content. I will have to do some research of the Zeitner logos first before I can make a final judgement concerning originality. As I understand from Gaspare the Zeitner markings have been frequently faked. My object should be from around 1935 and I am looking for Zeitner marks from the same period to have some reference.

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This is the object, a wedding goblet of Goering and his wife Emmy Sonneman. From the outside it looks to have some typical Goering silverware properties. I do like the oakleaves in particular, which look a lot like the ones on the mirror as can be seen on page 288 of Johnson's book German War Booty. Also the shields of Goering and his wife look to be real, although it shouldn't be difficult to fake these. Carinhall, when I posted the images before you told that this or a similar goblet was sold a few years ago during an auction. Would you be able to give more info on that one?

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Frederico,

The first time I saw a Göring goblet similar to yours it was being advertised for sale in Sept. 2004 on relicsofthereich.com for $2,500. The goblet was one of 9 Zeitner items that were for sale on that website. The advertisement stated the following description:

quote:
Special Offering !! Original Silver from Hermann Goring !!

NOW FOR SALE SEPARATELY !!!!
This is a very Special Offering. These items have never been on the market before and have never been in any collection.
The group of items were recently purchased from the still living Daughter of Professor Zeitner - the house jeweller and Gold and silver Smith to Hermann Goring. Zeitener's daughter still lives in a North German town and has had these items for the past 60 years.
These are 100% real and unquestionable and will come with a lifetime Guarantee of originality .
The items were either work in progress for Goring or items returned for repairs which never made it back to Goring.

2. A Beautiful handcrafted large Silver Goblet. The Goblet stands 7" tall and is made from hand hammered silver - again Hallmarked and with the Zeitner mark. The Goblet is embellished with the a real Gold art-deco style Eagle and swastika and real Gold Goring family coats of arms. The stem has superb gilt oakleaves wrapped around. This is a truly stunning piece of art !!
$2500


Later in 2006, it appears the same goblet was advertised for sale on hannahsreich.com for £950.00.

I have re-examined the photos from these two advertisements. One of the photos from relicsofthereichs.com shows the size, location and spacing of the Zeitner and silver marks that appear to exactly match the marks on your goblet. Although the photo is a bit out of focus I can also see that the pattern of superficial scratches adjoining the marks is the same. This comparison, along with the identical design of the goblets, leads me to believe that your goblet is the same one that relicsofthereichs.com had for sale.

According to relicsofthe reich.com, the goblet was acquired directly from Herbert Zeitner's living daughter. Therefore, if you want to know more about the goblet's provenance you should contact them.

Best regards,
Carinhall

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Frederico,

I hope your research is successful. I am very interested to hear about what you discover.

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Gaspare,

You are correct in your observations about Third Reich silver and Zeitner pieces in particular. You didn't mention, but maybe have noticed, that some authentic Zeitner pieces even have the capitalized name "ZEITNER" stamped on them. Let's not forget that Zeitner produced work before and after the Third Reich, so his marks had variations over a career spanning 5 decades.

Best regards,
Carinhall

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Frederico,

There are two websites that have nearly identical names: relicsofthereich.com and relicsofthereichs.com. It is the first website, not the latter, that had your goblet for sale.

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Carinhall, I agree, the firm has a long history. Its important that if comparisons are to be made the pieces are around the same size, and around the same period are used.
If Frederico is concerned he should first confirm the provenance. Then check into the stamps by comparisons..

The piece could be just fine,,made from original and postwar pieces,, or total bogus..
If the provenance is good I don't see why they wouldn't make out a certification paper for Frederico, I'd certainly ask,,and even pay for such a paper if I was keeping the piece.. ,G.

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Dear all,

Many thanks for your input and help on this subject.

Carinhall. You're absolutely right. This is the goblet that came originally from Relics of the Reich and later on from Hannah's Reich. As far as it concerns Martin Stiles from Hannah's Reich, he is an honest guy who sells good and original stuff. I really can recommend him to do business with.

I do not have any experience with Relics of the Reich but I used to hear good stories about the owners. They offered some other Goering objects for sale then. Among these was also this "car object".

I happened to send an email to Relics of the Reich last saturday asking about the origin of the goblet. I am waiting for a reply.

Gaspare, that is a good idea. I will ask for a provenance.

Carinhall, thanks for the quote. I didn't remember the exact text.

I will let you know when I will have some more information.

Regards,

Frederico

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I sent a second email last week to Relics of the Reich (to both emailaddresses in the US and the UK), explaining how I got the goblet and asking about the provenance. I also offered to pay for a written COA. Unfortunately I didn't get a reply so far.

If there is someone who would be able and willing to help me to get in touch with the owners of Relics of the Reich, I would be grateful.

Thanks,

Frederico

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Hi Frederico,

I don't know the person(s) affiliated with relicsofthereich.com where your Göring goblet came from. However, I found the following contact info on that website:

USA Contact Details
Postal Address:
Kent Berg
9547 Watson Industrial Park
Saint Louis, MO 63126
USA.

Telephone: (636) 675-9912
Email: Bergfurher@aol.com

Since your emails are being unanswered, then you should phone and/or write to Mr. Berg. His original advertisment (see my Dec. 23rd post above) stated that he would provide a "lifetime guarantee of originality". As the current owner of this goblet you should be entitled to this guarantee especially if you are willing to pay for it. Best of luck with your quest.

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Interesting..that 'car item' is for a civilian pilot in service of the Reich..

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Carinhall,

Thanks for your help.

Another forum member told me that Paul Jarvis is the owner of Relics of the Reich and that he is moving to Germany. I received another email address which I also tried last sunday. No reply so far.

I will keep you informed.

Frederico

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I received a reply of Paul Jarvis of Relics of the Reich today. Paul is a very friendly person and he told me the name of the German dealer from whom he purchased it. I just sent an email to the German dealer asking for the provenance. Will keep you informed.

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Carinhall and all the other ones who were very helpful in this matter,

Today I received a reply from the German antique dealer telling me that he remembers the goblet very well and that he bought it directly from the daughter of Herbert Zeitner, whom he knows for over 20 years. I will ask for a written COA.

Frederico

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Wow Eek Nice! Thank you for showing it. Cool Paul


In Memory of Joe Mann
Medal of Honor Recipient
July 8, 1922 �
September 19, 1944



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Frederico,

Glad to hear you are making progress in your quest. It would be wonderful if your goblet did indeed come from Prof. Zeitner's daughter. In my opinion this would prove the goblet's authenticity. If you get an opportunity please ask the german dealer what the daughter knows about this goblet and the 8 other pieces he purchased from her. Also, try getting a photo showing the complete group of Zeitner items that the German dealer purchased.

Best regards.

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Carinhall,

Those are good questions. I will ask.

I received a reply that it is not possible to get a COA. Don't know the reason for that.

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Frederico,

Don't give up trying to get a COA - whether lifetime or limited - from the german dealer. If he still refuses, then perhaps he will compromise and write you a narrative explaining the circumstances in which he acquired the goblet from Zeitner's daughter. This should provide you with the provenance.

In the meantime, I found an old web photo of your goblet sitting besides the other items acquired at the same time from the daughter. The photo is small and it is difficult to study the pieces. From left to right they are:

1. Bronze German Hunting Association device with the Göring and Sonneman coats of arms.
2. Your silver goblet.
3. Silver wax seal in the shape of the Göring fist clutching a ring.
4. Black wood and silver circular tobacco box and lid with Göring and Sonneman coats of arms.
5. Bronze eagle and swastika.
6. Bronze and silver wax seal in the form of the Deutsche Jägerschaft - German Hunting badge.
7. Silver eagle and swastika.
8. Hammered silver goblet with an ebony wood base with Göring and Sonneman coats of arms.
9. Car emblem in the shape of a wing with a swastika within a circle.

I believe these pieces have been sold to several collectors. I hope that one or more of the current owners will read this thread and then contact you to help establish the provenance.

Best regards.

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Carinhall,

You're of great help. Many thanks!

Frederico


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