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Dave Cameron
Posted 06 November 2003 17:17
As suggested by another member, I’m going to start branch specific uniform threads. It seems that great uniforms are scattered across are 6,750 postings on 18 pages and to cover all branches on a single thread could be cumbersome. It is a mutual feeling that this consolidation of branch specific uniforms into one thread will perhaps provide an easier reference for visiting collectors. Fire away. Other branch specific threads to follow.
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ORPO

Posted 13 November 2003 10:48
Here is a wartime Verwaltungspolizei Hauptmann tunic for an Adjutanten. The tunic is made of fine summer weight wool and has hellgrau piping throughout. It shows use and wear.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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ORPO

Posted 13 November 2003 10:57
Hauptmann shoulder boards are the late wartime style without the hochrot Nebenfarbe worn early in the war. The Adjutanten cords are orginal to the tunic and are attached by a button.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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ORPO

Posted 13 November 2003 11:05
VwP machine sewn officer collar tabs with grey backing. The brown wool collar is fastened with two hooks and is piped with grey.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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ORPO

Posted 13 November 2003 11:10
VwP officer sleeve eagle in aluminum bullion.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 13 November 2003 11:18
VwP officer tunic back showing the standard four panel uniform cut with grey piping at the boxed tail. The brown cuffs have false closure flaps and are grey piped along the opening.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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patrick
Posted 13 November 2003 18:33
Great idea and super tunic. NOW if could only find an enlisted Admin tunic. Has anybody ever seen one? I've seen tabs and boards but thats it.

"I only had two beers officer, I swear."

"In GOD we trust, everyone else keep your hands were we can see them"


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patrick
Posted 13 November 2003 18:33
2

"I only had two beers officer, I swear."

"In GOD we trust, everyone else keep your hands were we can see them"


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patrick
Posted 13 November 2003 18:34
3

"I only had two beers officer, I swear."

"In GOD we trust, everyone else keep your hands were we can see them"


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ORPO

Posted 14 November 2003 12:12
Unissued enlisted VwP shoulder boards. The sew-in set are the early boards with grey piping and red Nebenfarbe. The removable set are the later boards without the secondary piping. It appears neither set has ever had pips attached to them.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Ernst H


Posted 14 November 2003 13:25
George,
Interesting boards you show.
I was under the impression that the lowest uniform-wearing Verwaltungsbeamte was the Polizei-Assistent which would be in Hauptwachtmeister rank.

Ernst
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Gary8
Posted 14 November 2003 16:51
My tunic


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Gary8
Posted 14 November 2003 16:54
collar


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Gary8
Posted 14 November 2003 16:57
board


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Gary8
Posted 14 November 2003 17:01
eagle


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Gary8
Posted 14 November 2003 17:04
back


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ORPO

Posted 14 November 2003 17:18
Ernst,

You are correct that the Verwaltungspolizei Polizei-Assistent is a Verwaltungsbeamte in the Hauptwachtmeister range. That is, this NCO is at the bottom of the ladder on the middle pay range group (Pol Assistent, Pol Sekretär, & Pol Obersekretär) and holds a lifetime appointment as an official (Beamte). These particular shoulder boards appear to be unissued and have never had any pips applied to them. I don't know if they were worn like this or if they simply have not had the appropriate rank pips put on them because they are unissued.

That does bring up the question of whether the lower pay range group Einfacher Polizeiverwaltungsdienst folks wore these shoulder boards and if not, what did they wear? The SHAEF book on the German Police indicates the lower pay range group consists of 9 pay grades and some of those (i.e. jailers) were obviously uniformed. It also states in para 151, "As a result of wartime manpower shortage many of the requirements for candidates for this branch have, however, been relaxed as has previously been pointed out in connection with the Regular Uniformed Police. Preference is given to Schupo members with 8 years' service for whom 80 per cent. of all openings are reserved. Training is given on the job and candidates hold the rank of Amtsgehilfe auf Probe (Office Help on trial) during a probationary period. After six months the "auf probe" is dropped and in the case of Schupo members appointment for life is given after two years."

I suspect these folks could wear Verwaltungspolizei uniforms with boards indicating their 8 years service and current pay grade. They certainly would not wear the Hauptwachtmeister shoulder boards because they were not yet in the pay grade of Polizei-Assistent.

George

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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patrick
Posted 14 November 2003 21:53
George,

I don't know what to say, YOU HAVE A PAIR OF ENLISTED ADMIN BOARDS. Since Gary did not take me up on my left arm offer I'll give you the same chance. LEFT arm - Admin boards.

Think about it.

Pat

"I only had two beers officer, I swear."

"In GOD we trust, everyone else keep your hands were we can see them"
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ORPO

Posted 15 November 2003 10:42
Here is the Knötel Verwaltungspolizei uniform plate for an Oberstleutnant (in Höher Polizeiverwaltungsdienst) and a Hauptmann (Polizei Oberinspektor in Gehobener Polizeiverwaltungsdienst). Notice the black boots and belts and the SS Officer knot worn by the Police Officer on the right.

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 17 November 2003 00:11
Ernst,

I continued to read the SHAEF book and found in paragraph 153 the following explanation of candidates for the Gehobener Polizeiverwaltungsdienst rank (Inspektor) that may be helpful in our discussion of NCO boards. "Half the posts in the Gehobener Polizeiverwaltungsdienst (Senior Grade) are reserved for the NCOs of the Schupo with at least 12 years of service; the remainder go to the few who are admitted from the Intermediate Service and to civilian candidates... Upon successful completion of these examinations the candidate is given the title of apl. Polizei-inspektor... A candidate from the Mittlerer Polizeiverwaltungsdienst, provided he is not more than 45 years old, may be admitted to the Gehobener Polizeiverwaltungsdienst, if he has shown outstanding abilities... Even after passing the Polizei-inspektorprüfung (examination for the Gehobener Polizeiverwaltungsdienst), the candidate still holds his old rank until his final appointment as Polizei-inspektor."

From this description, the NCO candidate (from either the Schupo or VwP) would hold, and display, their current rank (whatever that may be at the time) until their apprenticeship ended and their final appointment as a Polizei-Inspektor. This could very well explain use of VwP NCO shoulder boards displaying less rank than a Hauptwachtmeister could it not? Period photos of these folks are few and far between, but it would be nice to see a photo of someone with a rank less than VwP Hauptwachtmeister.

George

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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Ernst H


Posted 17 November 2003 16:10
George,
I had a look in my bekleidungsvorschrift.

The bekleidungsvorschrift makes a distinction between "Mußuniformträger" and "Kann-uniformträger". i do not yet fully understand the difference between these two.
There is also mentioning about when a uniform is to be worn, who is to pay for it and when the uniform becomes property of the wearer.

Not every verwaltungsbeamte was entitled to wear a uniform.
I believe I am correct in saying that people employed by the Polizei for administrative duty where not automatically a Police official and could not automatically wear a uniform. Many would just wear their civilian clothes or in case they where Schupo officials, their Schupo uniform.

What I read from these texts is that only a few higher ranked officials (in charge of specific tasks) allways wear a uniform. All others can sometimes be allowed to wear a verwaltungsuniform but primarily wear whatever they normally wear (civilian clothes or schupo clothes)
In the 1943 order for verwaltungsbeamten, the lowest rank that is talked about (about wearing a uniform) is the Verwaltungsbeamte in Hauptwachtmeisterrang.

In the same chapter about Verwaltungsuniforms is mentioning of other ranks (wachtmeister and meister) which are to hold their previous rank,...but only if they are Polizei Waffenmeister. I do not know of Polizei waffenmeister wore Verwaltungsuniforms.

I hope this all makes a littlebit sence.
please correct me if I am wrong

Ernst
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Posted 17 November 2003 23:04
Ernst,

I think you are on the right track with deciphering the bekleidungsvorschrift. The distinction is between those who can (may) wear a uniform and those who must wear a uniform. I also think this was a very blurred distinction as even plain cloths policemen (with full arrest powers) often wear a uniform for various occasions and uniformed personnel often wear plain cloths depending upon their current assignment. This is particulary common for inside administrative work of this type. The one thing they would never do is display anything but their current rank insignia regardless of their assignment.

I think it is "possible" for Verwaltungspolizei to wear uniforms showing less rank than Polizei Assistent in Hauptwachtmeister Rang. I certainly do not think it was common. Gee Ernst, none of these Verwaltungspolizei uniforms or insignia are commonly found. They are all very scarce and NCO stuff is as scarce as hen's teeth, as we say in the States.

George

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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Ernst H


Posted 18 November 2003 01:59
George,

what I think could be a reason for the scarce nature of Verwaltungsuniforms is that many did not wear a uniform when working in their presinct.
When sent to abroad they where issued uniforms.

If the assignment abroad lasted for less than 6 continuous months the clothing had to be given back to the Polizei clothing depot. If the assignement lasted for longer than 6 months the wearer could keep them.

Ernst
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ORPO

Posted 20 December 2003 11:52
In order to keep this thead alive I will post a Verwaltungspolizei greatcoat for Offiziere. This Mantel is of police green wool with a brown collar that has grey VwP piping. The sewn in Polizei Inspektor shoulder boards have one gilt pip and the coat is fully blanket lined and dated 1940.

George

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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Posted 19 January 2004 16:57
A Polizei Verwaltungs München "dog tag" and cord to keep the thread alive. As a side note, Adolf Hitler's Munich apartment suite reverted to the German state. The rooms are now offices of the Verwaltungspolizei and are not accessible to the public. The brass Vwp plaque by the door does not mention the former occupant.

George

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson


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patrick
Posted 19 January 2004 17:30
George,

Very nice great coat, that all I need to finish up my Admin display. Helmut had one last year but I was too late. I've also scaned a pic of my VerW tag, all though it is stamped in a diff. way.

pat

"I only had two beers officer, I swear."

"In GOD we trust, everyone else keep your hands were we can see them"


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Ernst H


Posted 19 January 2004 17:44
George,
Am I reading you correctly that Pol.Vw... means member of Verwaltungspolizei?
Doesn't it just mean member of polizei in a certain polizei verwaltung (administrative area)

here mine for Wilhelmshaven

Ernst
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Posted 19 January 2004 19:02
Sorry Ernst, I was not being precise once again. The tag stamp does not indicate issuance to a Verwaltungspolizei policeman. It indicates issuance by the administrative district as you point out. Munich for mine, Bendorf for Pat's (GEMPO), and Wilhelmshaven for yours. Just trying to keep the thread alive.

George

"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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Ernst H


Posted 05 February 2004 12:21
To revive this thread and conclude the discussion about wether or not there were Verwaltungsbeamten in NCO rank I today found a regulation in the Ministrialblat about this very subject:
Polizei Assistenten are to wear the uniform and insignia of Pol-Hauptwachtmeister. This is including NCO collartabs in gray AND a grey sleeve-eagle (without standort-name)

Original order from 1938. Changes made to that order in 1940

Ernst
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Gary8
Posted 24 March 2005 14:05
Here is an admin tunic that I recently got from Patrick, the cufftitle is outstanding


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Gary8
Posted 24 March 2005 14:06
Collar


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Gary8
Posted 24 March 2005 14:06
eagle


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Gary8
Posted 24 March 2005 14:08
Best of all the cufftitle. the pictures just do not do this title any justice. The weave is very thick and tarnished.


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Gary8
Posted 24 March 2005 14:09
Back


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Gary8
Posted 04 December 2005 15:34
Here is the latest addition. admin officers summer tunic. I must say that finding police items is getting harder and more expensive.


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Gary8
Posted 04 December 2005 15:36
Collar patches are sewn on with slip on shoulderboards


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Gary8
Posted 04 December 2005 15:37
Eagle hand embroidered with some faults


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Well glad to see that these threads are back up, here is contribution to this thread My Nco peaked cap with early Maria Slama address for Wien. This one is in crisp minty condition with no moth or damage that I can see, all we need to do now is for someone to find that NCO jacket.

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Another shot

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Inside

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First set of admin boards for me, no secondary colour.

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reverse

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Gary,

I still enjoy looking at that Admin tunic with DW cuff from time-to-time! I just might have to add an admin tunic to the collection some day! Not sure if I said it before, although congrats on the elusive Admin visor and the rank straps!

About all I have are a few pieces of misc. insignia, somewhere!

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Officer's visor:

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Here is my contribution, my latest tunic

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Boards

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eagle

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BTT to keep alive

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Sorry to have been absent for so long: my interest in the Polizei is as strong as ever (and work on volume 3 in my Bender series continues) but sickness in the family has kept me busy with less plearurable pursuits.

Just a quickie on the Verwaltungspolizei: I have a note that officials with the rank of Polizeirat and above wore bright red as an additional colour (Nebenfarbe) on the shoulder straps. Can anyone confirm this, and give the source?

Many thanks and best wishes to all.

hpt

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Hello,

According to Deuster from 1938-1942 the lower and middle grade ranks wore the double red/gray on their shoulder boards, higher grades only gray. I think the red was dropped altogether in 1944. Here is the German, perhaps your reading is different.

W.Unland

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Many thanks, I should have checked that out first. Just never enough time!

hpt

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Originally Posted By: hpt
Many thanks, I should have checked that out first. Just never enough time!

hpt


Good to see you back Hugh.


"You can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson
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