#15590
10/19/2009 02:06 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
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OP
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This is another PDL logo, the latest of the three I have. This logo employs the helmet & sword logo inside an oval with the firm's name & location within the oval. The hilt of this bayonet is very clearly not Eickhorn so I presume PDL's contract to produce fire bayonets was not exclusive.
This mark is on a later production long model with nonmagnetic pommel.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15591
10/24/2009 04:00 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
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Unlike Polizei bayonets which are frequently encountered with unit markings, it's only occasionally that we find fire bayonets so marked. Even then, many of the markings appear to simply be inventory numbers with no indication of which department the bayonet was used in.
This bayonet is unit marked & there is no question over which department it was carried in, arguably the biggest in Germany. I've seen several Berlin marked pieces over the years & all have been marked in this manner, roughly stamped on the reverse crossguard. This one shows the inventory number 1789 & is I believe the highest number I've observed. I picked this one up from Bill Shea many years ago & while not perfect, is still an upgrade from an earlier one I had.
This bayonet is a long model later production piece with unmarked ricasso & nonmagnetic pommel.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15592
10/24/2009 04:01 AM
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OP
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This is the frog that came on the Berlin marked piece, nicely dated 1937 & maker marked to a Berlin manufacturer. It's always nice to see small connections like this between bayonets & accouterments.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15593
10/24/2009 04:21 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
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OP
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Nearly all Berlin FW marked bayonets will be found with blades devoid of makers' marks, but not all. Twice I've observed very early fire bayonets that were marked to the Berlin FW & maker marked by Alcoso. We know Alcoso had one of the bigger contracts to produce Polizei bayonets just by the number of Alcoso pieces we see in collections, so it doesn't come as a real surprise that Alcoso scored at least 1 contract to produce fire bayonets.
Alcoso is one of the older & more well known of Solingen's manufacturers, having been established in either 1821 or 1842, according to my edition of Fisher's, & still in operation as late as 2002. The symbol of the scales was used in nearly all of Alcoso's numerous maker mark variations.
This bayonet looks to be of very early production. The bakelite shows the early wide diamond pattern & the rivets look to be brass based & in the shape I've observed on early Alcoso KS98s. The pommel has the typical early Alcoso shape & the recurved crossguard has the classic stubby Alcoso arms. The inventory number is a mystery, it could be 145, 1453, 1455 or 1458 as the last digit is obscured by the "FW". It doesn't matter though as the character & age of this piece make it a keeper for me. I was lucky enough to find another & it currently holds an esteemed place in the very nice unit marked collection of Steven C.
Another treat about this piece, the blade is longer than the usually seen 9 3/4" but measures in at 10 1/4". This Alcoso is a very early long model bayonet with magnetic pommel.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15594
10/24/2009 04:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
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OP
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This was a nice treat that came attached to the Alcoso marked Berlin FW bayonet, a similarly marked frog. This was the first time I had observed such a frog but they must be out there somewhere. The leather on it is thick but still fairly supple & it shows just the slightest of loose stitching. It came to me directly from the Fatherland.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15595
10/24/2009 04:25 AM
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OP
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Here's a better shot of the maker mark, coming back to Berlin manufacturer Karl Dietz.
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#15596
10/24/2009 04:31 AM
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While we're on the topic of Alcoso, here's another Alcoso without unit marking. This one shows the same early Alcoso mark & has an early tan felt blade buffer. This mark is on an short model with magnetic pommel.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15597
10/24/2009 04:34 AM
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OP
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My last Alcoso example with a variation mark that I believe is slightly later then the preceeding 2. It's a little more detailed with the name "Alcoso", the lettering is more intricate & it has the location of Solingen. This one fell into my lap from Eban years ago.
As you can see, the short blade is in the form of a nice sawback. Although there is some darkening on the pommel, it is magnetic & heavy in hand.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15598
10/24/2009 01:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Billy:
Thank you for this thread... amazing.
Please keep it up, I am panting in anticipation.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#15599
10/27/2009 01:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858 |
Here is one of my twin sets. Peter M�ller, Gummersbach. One has an inventory number M11 and the other M18. I know of another Fireman bayonet that is marked with a number with the M following the number.
TKissinger
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#15600
10/27/2009 02:46 AM
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OP
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Hi John, Thanks for the kind words . I have lots more but have to resize most of them. Haven't had too much computer time lately but I'll try to give it a shot tomorrow. Hey Terry, Beautiful pair of bayonets. The mark is scarce if not rare IMO but it's super nice to have a minty pair with unit markings. Some guys have all the luck Here's mine, some light scratching on the blade but it's fine overall. This mark is on a long model with nonmagnetic pommel.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15601
10/28/2009 12:52 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072
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Joined: Jul 2001
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quote: Originally posted by Billy G.: I've seen this mark a total of once, this one is it. It came from a German dealer several years ago & he had no information to impart regarding the crown logo. Initially I thought it might be the mark from the Erfurt armory but that mark is slightly different & usually has "Erfurt" underneath. There are several other manufacturers, Schmidt being one, that incorporated a crown in their usual logos but none have been exact.
This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a late production long model that's starting to show it's age. Please be sure to post any thoughts on this mark if you have any ideas.
Billy, hey! say I came here to post some photos of my short sawback rig and while reading I came upon this post of yours. anyway my thoughts on the crown mark only is this. thats its from the firm Carl and Robert Linder. You were correct about the erfurt crown, its much more complex if you have a bit take a look at Carter's A-L ref and check out Linder. I have been working on my hang tag reference and have a postwar Linder tag that I have been working on and the crown mark stuck out to me when I seen your post. I wont say this is "the final word" but it looks like a match in my view. Now I have to finish your postings and shoot a few pics of my short saw. Bret Van Sant
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#15602
10/28/2009 01:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 5,814 Likes: 18
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Bret:
I think that you have nailed it... I looked at the maker marks in Fisher under Carl & Robert Linder and saw the same crown: four panels, the cross and a circle under the panels.
John
Always looking for Eickhorns and etched bayonets.
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#15603
10/28/2009 02:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Here is my short sawback. My light took a poop so you got overcast at best my bad! I dont have a decent way to display my control tags so this one ended up here, it didnt come this way.
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#15604
10/28/2009 02:42 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072
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Joined: Jul 2001
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#15605
10/28/2009 02:44 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
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#15606
10/28/2009 03:02 PM
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Posts: 1,072
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Hey John! I should amend my post a bit also. The crown mark while close to one example of C&R Linder is also "close" to Peter Rosenkaimer maker mark. However Peter Paul maker mark is much later. The crown that matches the one Billy shows on his fire bayo C&R linder with the knife and crown in a circle is the one that is the exact match for the pictured firemans Billy shows. whew!! Bret
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#15607
10/29/2009 03:21 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
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OP
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Bret,
Well done on identifying the Linder logo, I think you're right indeed. I had a list somewhere of likely candidates with crown type logos but of course can't find it now. The differences in some of the crowns were very minute & it always bugged me why a manufacturer would use something as innocuous as a crown with no other identifying marks.
Very nice Horster sawback, don't think I've seen a shortie from Horster before. Quite well conditioned & certainly deserving of that control tag. Sort of a wide blood groove for a short model too. Nice trait & a nice bayonet overall. Thanks for sharing it!
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15608
10/29/2009 04:35 AM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Billy, The tag just hangs out on it. I aint foolin nobody saying the tag came with it. And on the C&R Linder deal, more work would need to be done to make that 100% positive. Does Terry list a CR Linder on his maker list of bayos? The little mystery things are the real nice parts of collecting.This is a good example of the reason I have ask that the maker mark gallery continue to be worked on but seems Vern is ok with what they have, which is several holes.Just getting by anymore does not cut it! Many nice examples have been shown here. Someone should pin this to the top as well as terrys maker mark list. If they can. Bret Van Sant
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#15609
10/29/2009 03:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834 |
quote: Originally posted by cog-hammer: Someone should pin this to the top as well as Terry's maker mark list. If they can. Bret Van Sant
Wonderful suggestion!! Hopefully this will happen.
WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
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#15610
10/29/2009 10:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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Joined: Jan 2001
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I have never seen a C. R. Linder TM on a Heer, Luft. or Firemans bayonet, except the one Billys owns. But there is so many TM's I haven't seen. Several collectors have helped me assemble my TM list. When Billy sent me the photo of his I assumed it may have been an early piece.
TKissinger
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#15611
10/30/2009 01:53 AM
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OP
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I've never seen a C&R Linder mark on any type of bayonet at all. While it's possible the crown logo could be someone other than Linder, I think Bret has nailed it. Always wondered about that one too thanks man! BTW Terry, the Linder crown logo bayonet isn't an early production piece as far as I can tell. The materials & weight of it makes me think later production. Here's another mark that I've never seen on a bayonet although this manufacturer's mark is always in demand on Heer & Luft daggers as well as especially coveted on SS daggers. It's the logo of Arthur Sch�ttelh�ffer & Co, Solingen-Wald. This piece came from Ron Reide for a nominal price, it's not mint by any means but certainly nice enough not to pass up. I had thought I'd just get it as a space filler & upgrade sometime in the future. That was 7 or 8 years ago, I'm still waiting to find that other piece. Has anyone seen another? This mark is on a very early production long model with a magnetic pommel that has an Eickhorn pommel & crossguard. A keeper for sure.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15612
10/30/2009 02:07 AM
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Here's another mark that's one I've never observed on a fire bayonet or bayonet of any kind, the logo of Ernst Knecht & Co., Solingen-W�stenhof/Wuppertal.
This nice piece was an Eban find, the seller couldn't really identify the maker mark except to say it had "stags or something similar" which made me think the elk logo of Robert Schaaf. When I got a good picture of it though I realized it had to be a variation of the Knecht logo which I was somewhat familiar from SA daggers.
This mark is on a very well conditioned long model with magnetic pommel.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15613
10/30/2009 04:14 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072 |
Billy, very nice! I can add my own twist on the maker mark. I know most folks could care less but its amazing you have found a bayonet with this mark!!
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#15614
10/30/2009 04:17 PM
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,072
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Joined: Jul 2001
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And here is a seal from the same firm note the dates on the tag vs. the seal. The seal is on a box but I wont show the box until I get a better grip on what would have came in it. Again the bayo with this mark is to me just fantastic!!
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#15615
11/01/2009 02:26 AM
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Bret,
I've certainly never seen anything from Knecht in the nature of tags or boxes. Just great items, thanks for posting them.
Here's another mark I've seen on a dress bayonet just once, the logo of Hammerfahr Cie. According to Fisher's, Hammesfahr was a fairly common manufacturer of SA daggers with their swimmer logo, founded in 1919 & the company was still in operation as late as 2002.
This piece would have caught my eye as it's not common on bayonets at all but when something is both rare & on a fire bayonet it presents a real prize for me. Not a sexy logo by any means but the rarity does it for me. This one came to me from a fellow collector in the midwest a year ago & I was both lucky & happy to get it. I'd love to know if anyone else has seen this mark on a dress bayonet at all.
This mark is on a minty long model with magnetic pommel.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15616
11/01/2009 02:33 AM
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Here is another maker I've seen just once on a bayonet, the logo of Gust. H�ker. According to Anthony Carter's book, Haker was founded "before 1920" & was a maker of bread, fruit & meat knives as well as pocket knives. We've seen the H�ker logo on SA/NSKK daggers as well as HJ knives & now a bayonet.
I was again both happy & lucky to find it before someone else snapped it up. It came all the way from England from a dealer who's name escapes me at the moment. From what I understand this is not a common mark on anything, I've seen it on the occasional SA dagger but apparently they made bayonets as well.
This mark is on the obverse ricasso of an early & beautifully minty long model with magnetic pommel.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15617
11/01/2009 02:38 AM
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Another treat with the Gust. H�ker piece was the surprise I got when I unwrapped it from the bubblewrap, a dual maker mark showing a man with hat & a pickaxe. Collectors are used to surprises for the most part, things that show up upon delivery that weren't apparent in pictures. At least this was a good surprise
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15618
11/01/2009 03:01 AM
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Here is a scarce mark to find on a fire bayonet, the logo of Arthur Evertz, Hersteller blanker Waffen, Solingen. According to Carter, the company was founded in 1925 by Arthur Evertz (who incidentally was the brother in law of the well known manufacturer Paul Seilheimer). Carter lists Evertz as a manufacturer of 1st & 2nd model Luftwaffe daggers, Heer daggers & some early SA daggers.
I have seen this mark on dress bayonets albeit sparingly & maybe 2 or 3 times on a fire bayonet. This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a later production long model with nonmagnetic pommel.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15619
11/01/2009 03:06 AM
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This is the other Evertz mark seen on bayonets, the AES initials in a square. This is the only time I've observed this mark on a fire bayonet & am not sure if I've ever seen it on a Heer/Luft bayonet but if so, it can't have been more than once. If anyone has such a mark, please be so kind to post it.
This bayonet is not minty by any means although it's still probably Exc. This piece came to me from Eban for a song, probably because the scabbard had a lot of crud stuck to the outside so I bet a lot of bidders were put off.
This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a late production short model with nonmagnetic pommel.
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#15620
11/01/2009 03:09 AM
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Although this wasn't a surprise, it certainly helped me want this piece. You just don't find inventory or unit markings on fire bayonets very often so I like to take them into consideration. While the mark itself isn't too telling, combining it with the rare mark made it a keeper. I know Terry posted some nice bayonets with an "M", who knows if they're from the same department or not. As you can see the blade exhibits the remains of some tool cleaning it with steel wool although thankfully it wasn't sharpened. Some people just shouldn't be trusted with nice collectibles
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15621
11/02/2009 12:21 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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Here is one version of a Hermann Schellhorn Offenbach A. M.
TKissinger
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#15622
11/02/2009 02:50 AM
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Terry,
Nice Schellhorn marked piece, looks like a Pack grip & rivets which is a nice tidbit too. I really dig putting together manufacturers with their distributors & it isn't always easy on pieces that aren't dual marked. This one makes it a little easier though which is nice. Really well conditioned too which is a rarity, the Schellhorns I've come across are usually later production that show their age less gracefully that I'd hope.
Schellhorn is another one of those distributors that I've only observed on fire bayonets. Here's my example which also has the offset Pack rivets. This etched mark logo is on the reverse ricasso of a later production long model bayonet with nonmagnetic pommel.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15623
11/02/2009 02:58 AM
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Here is another variation of the Hermann Schellhorn mark, this one stamped instead of etched. As far as fire bayonet distributors go, Schellhorn is probably the most commonly seen, if not the second most commonly seen. I guess their store in Offenbach am Main did a brsk business.
This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a later production short model bayonet with nonmagnetic pommel.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15624
11/02/2009 03:05 AM
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Here's a fire bayonet by the scarcely seen distributor of Hans Gr�nwald, Magdeburg which nicely includes the firm's address at the time. I've observed a Gr�nwald mark without the address as well & have seen both marks on the occasional Heer/Luft dress bayonet but this is the only time I was lucky enough to find it on a fire bayonet. Admittedly this bayonet is not in the best of shape but again, when I find one that I figure is pretty rare, I usually get it & hope to upgrade. Had this one about 6 or 7 years & am still waiting As far as maker/distributor connections, I know someone who has a H�rster piece dual marked with Gr�nwald. This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a later production long model with nonmagnetic pommel.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15625
11/02/2009 03:10 AM
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Here is a tough distriburor to find, the mark of Hans Gukumus, Wittenberg. Only one I've ever seen before or since, thanks to Ron Weinand for helping me out with this one. There's a light attempt at sharpening that some tool did but it wasn't enough to throw this one back. Another thing I like about distributors is unlike manufacturers which mostly hailed from Solingen, distributors were widely scattered & dotted the map around Germany.
This etched mark is on the reverse ricasso of a later production short model with nonmagnetic pommel.
GDC Gold Badge #290 GDC Silver Badge #310
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#15626
11/02/2009 05:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Here are the three versions of H. Schellhorn.
TKissinger
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#15627
11/02/2009 08:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834 |
WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
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#15628
11/02/2009 08:53 PM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,834 |
WANTED TO REPURCHASE!! Walther pistol Model PP - ac code - Ser. No. 382000P - REWARD FOR INFO ABOUT THIS PISTOL!!
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#15629
11/02/2009 09:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,858
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Now I know where I got those photos from. Nice pair I don't have. Hear I missed you at the gun show last Sat. Talked to Dick H. for awhile. Got my rooms for the SOS is Feb. maybe I'll find some treasures.
TKissinger
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