UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum TD. Gravity knife by Voos?

Hey guys,
I picked this beauty up at the SOS. I had never seen a Voos gravity knife (and the price was RIGHT), after buying it I found out many others had never seen one either, so I thought I would post it. It all seems to "check" out. Every part seems to be stamped (usually internally). I can post better pics. as needed, (these are a little blurry) But I wanted to hear if anyone else had seen one.
Anyway, here it is...

reverse

#3
Amt stamp

Number

Open

Maker Mark

I look forward to hearing from others also, it looked good in person although I hadn't ever seen a Voos take down myself until this one. Hope to hear input from other members that collect this type!! You will probably have Roy Carroll after this one Johnny, I think he is a Voos collector.

The knife is in great shape, I can take internal pics. if requested. The whole thing is "blued" even the spine of the blade. There is a little surface rust on the back of the "crossguard". I was wanting to ask how this could be removed, with as little damage to the "bluing" as possible. Also, what can I clean the surfaces with that will not hard the bluing.
Thanks in advance!!!
Johnny

Nice Johnny,I heard a soft #2 pencil lead will take light rust off with out hurting anything.Maybe someone can say for sure if this is true.
Shawn

Looks very nice to me. I have not seen a Voos gravity knife at all, let alone a take-down.

THATS a beauty!! NEVER seen a Voos Gravity knife! Kevin.

Hey guys,
I went ahead and asked both Mr. Shea and Whittmann, neither of them have ever seen a Voos Gravity at all! Getting interesting!

What let me think a little is the fact that the mm is exacly the same like on the spurious Olympic Youth knives by VOOS, see eg. http://www.wehrmacht-awards.net/forums/showthread.php?t=125357
and it is a minute varation of a period VOOS mm which I have not seen up to now on a without any doubt period blade.
Also it is a fact, that there are a lot of new made paratrooper knife blades at german shows, with a lot of different mm´s (nearly whatever you want) and it is easy to put one of them into a take down model.
Would like to see this exact etched mm on a period blade, that would help a lot.

A late issue R.B. Nr marked used but decent enough take down gravity knife. With an almost mint “Voos” trademarked blade in it?? Most regrettably I’m not getting a good feeling at all about the combination, and wish that I could see of the examples that Wotan mentioned for comparison purposes.

PS: The “Olympic” youth knives are really a different topic. But do indicate that high grade fakes can be or have been made that are capable of deceiving collectors and presumably some dealers. FP

b Hi Wotan,this is a Voss mm of an SA dagger,you can see there is a difference. Regards nats


http://stan-the-man.tk

Hang on just a second. Emil Voos used several different etches with variations is detail.

Following are just Army dagger etches:

2

3

4

5
Then there are Luft, SA, and perhaps others

I cannot speak for the FJ blade as I know little about these knives, but I want to make he point that Voos trademarks did vary so a different version is not, in itself, a red flad.

Dave

Hi Dave ,thanks for posting the extra mm's The mark in photo 4 looks like a good match for the one on the gravity knife,Regards Stan

http://www.stan-the-man.tk

Johnny,
Could you please post pics of the inside? I think this piece deserves a closer look.

nats and Dave, thank you very much for showing comparable mm´s.
Dave is #4 with a nickeled blade?

Wotan,

I need to check #4. It is one of a big collection of trademarks, but I am not sure where it came from.

Dave

Hey guys,
I will post more pics. tonight. Anything on the interior that I should concentrate on? The pics. that I have provided so far are admittedly not very good. Stay tuned and later tonight there will be more & better pics.
Thanks for the opinions and input so far. Thanks to Nats and Dave also for the pics. I agree that the mark looks like #4 above.
Until later.
Johnny

Ok more pics.
I must say that the wear in my opinion between the blade and the rest of the knife does match. I respect Frogprince's opinion, since the pics. that I posted previously did not really show the age of the blade. Here are better pics. Again I feel that the bade wear matches the rest of the knife.
The maker mark itself looks very good to me and is deep enough for your fingernail to "drop in".
Anyway: have a closer look:

#2

#3

#4

#5

Gray spots and some spidering,

There was a little rust also on the blade which I removed with a pencil and then polished further with a q-tip and soem semi-chrome.

Where the rust was on the reverse crossguard (thanks dagger addict!)

#8

#9

#10

#11

#12


Number near tip, also slight damage to the tip;

#13

#14

Generally speaking Luftwaffe FliegerKappmesser that show wear/use have blades that show commensurate use. With age/corrosion a separate issue because poor storage is separate and apart from use/wear/sharpening etc.

For myself perhaps the larger issue is an “R.B. Nr.” marked spike along with a trademarked blade. Usually the blades on the R.B. Nr. marked paratrooper knives are blank. Circa November 1940 under the auspices of the Oberkommando des Heeres, the Heereswaffenamt began to adopt letter codes to conceal the makers of various arms which included combat (service) edged weapons for the military with Mundlos, Berg, and E.u.F. Hörster being some of the first. The codes were not adopted overnight and were in the process of being changed over again in 1944 presumably because the Germans believed that the secret manufacturer’s codes had fallen into the hands of Allied intelligence. Which brings us to the “Reichsbetriebsnummer” (R.B. Nr.) which were adopted for the same reason sometime later in 1943.

A 1943 (or later) R.B. Nr. marked military issue (Luftwaffe) knife that also has a trademark??? From my perspective there is no question in my mind that the blade is a replacement. With the question of it being a period or postwar manufactured blade open to discussion - although IMHO there is nothing that precludes anyone from replicating a legitimate period marking on an unmarked blade from any era. And age (corrosion etc.) does not guarantee originality. Having seen some examples of aged/corroded “Olympic” knives with the “Olympic” etching done right over (on top of) the corrosion/wear.

I wish that I could be more positive. But that is my honest assessment of the situation at the moment having very serious doubts about the blade being original to the knife. FP

FP- Thank you very much for the information, I did not know the significance of the # spamping, I thought it was standard for all TD gravity knives (regardless of maker). This information makes your concerns much clearer, thank you.
If this # was used to conceal the maker of the knife, wouldn't each maker have a different # (like an RZM?)??. If so would it be possible to look up the # and see what maker it refers to???
So, if it has a # stamping, it should NOT have a maker mark (correct?). Does anyone else have an example with a # stamping and a maker mark as well??? Any chance there were a few with both a # and maker mark (like double marked RZM pieces)?
Thinking positive...
Johnny

The blades are without makermarks, only numbered (with the same number). I have make pictures from my take-down-knives.

Greetings JanC

the other

Thanks Jan,
I think the number that Frog Prince was referring to is the one on the base of the marlin spike (opposite the waffen amt stamp, exterior). I do not know what you 1983 and 1866 stamps refer to . I believe mine is stamprd 824 internally (but it is not with me now I am not sure of the #) I have not removed the blade to look at the backside, I will try that tonight to see if there is a # on the back. Anyone else know what these internal # stampings refer to (part manufacturer?)???

Johnny,
What Jan is trying to illustrate is the fact that the blade,end cap and frame should all have the same serial number. Is there a serial number on your blade and end cap? Do they match and do they have the same type font as the serial number on the frame?
I'm afraid that for now, I would have to agree with Frogprince about the blade having been replaced.

Jan and Bob, sorry for my misunderstanding. After reading the posts I was very afraid when I took the knife appart once again to inspect the back of the blade for a #.
Good news, the #843 is stamped everywhere it should be, the blade is NOT a replacement. At this point I suppose only the maker mark can be questioned?

Internal crossguard:

OK guys,
Now here is somthing strange.
I was reading Whittmann's reference on Luft. and checking out what he wrote about TD Gravity knives. In the book he states that the arrow stamped on the "crossguard" points toward the grip (as all do) and once the "crossguard" is removed, the arrow below points in the opposite direction (away from the grip) mine does NOT. Mine points toward the grip as well. Has anyone seen this before???
Check out the pic.:

Johnny, The third image back from the last one (with the matching assembly numbers) does alter my initial opinion of the knife having a replacement blade. Myself included there are a lot of folks who would love to have a listing of the R.B. Nr. codes which do appear to be maker specific. To the best of my knowledge so far a listing of the R.B. Nr. codes has eluded collectors which were used on miscellaneous items with some very few having been tentatively identified as to particular makers. Usually they were identified from the way they were made when compared to letter coded examples.

The “Ges. Geschützt” added version of the etched Voos logo is seen on some of the “DJ” type knife variants some of which are very problematic. But I’m going to have to go back and see if I can pull up which version had what. I’m also having a problem in trying to determine if the blade’s polish has been “tuned up’ at some point. Which has a bearing, but is uncertain from what I can see, understanding that digital photography has its plusses and minuses with lighting playing a significant factor. Still more questions than answers - but it is getting interesting to see if one of the R.B. Nr.’s can be identified. Regards, FP

I think maybe there is a possibility that someone added a motto for some reason maybe a strange attempt to add value? Since these knives only recently became of higher value it is possible when they were still considered a dime a dozens that the blade was modified to add value? Just an idea, since I known of standard SA with people attempting to add Röhm inscriptions to add to the value of an already good dagger

Johnny,
I respectfully have to disagree with Whittmann if he states that all of them face the opposite direction.I don't have his book so I don't know how he worded it.
I have over a dozen takedowns and all of the RBNR 19's have the arrow facing the same way as the end cap. The only ones which face the opposite direction are the RBNR 20's and maker marked pieces.

OK so,
with the matching internal #s we are looking at a good knife (all parts) with now the only questionable aspect being the maker mark. Right?
Adam- inresponse to your post, yes your thought that this was added to increase the value is somthing that had crossed my mind and is a logical step. However knives of this type in this condition without maker mark are selling for $700-800... somewhere around there, going higher every day? I bought this one WELL below market value, closer to the value of a non-take down. If the goal was to make the knife more valuble and turn a quick profit, why sell it for such a low price? This is the only detail that prevents me from agreeing that the maker mark is the logical suspect... Although now, I believe that the maker mark is the only suspect aspect of this knife.
Bob- This is the only TD Gravity knife that I have so I appreciate your input since I cannot compare to any other that I have. I re-checked Whittmann's book today and he does state that the arrows should be pointing in opposite directions. If you have some like mine, I wonder how many more there may be, and perhaps we have found a variation (perhaps certain makers stamped them differently). Whittmann has one with opposite pointing arrows pictured in his reference as well). I also noticed about the arrows that some have 4 lines making up the "fletching" at the back end of the arrow, and others just have a dulled end (like mine). Perhaps this too is maker specific... But that is a little off the topic. Anyone else have TD gravities with arrows pointing in the same direction? Anymore input???
Thank you all for the intrest and opinions and input so far, I really appreciate the help!

Hi Johnny V, if you look on Wittmanns site, he has a #19 knife with both the arrows pointing the same way,Regards nats

http://www.wwiidaggers.com/LUFTGRAV.htm


http://www.stan-the-man.tk

Thanks Nats. It appears that these are legit with the inner arrow pointing either toward the handle or away. The interesting thing would be to determine which makers did which type of arrow. I truely hope to discover the truth behind my knife with this thread, however if this discussion stalls short of a definitive answer I will probably send the knife to Whittmann or Johnson for a formal authentification, not to prove 100% that the knife is good or bad but just so that I have a concrete opinion upon which I can either sleep well at night, or move to take an un-original piece out of my collection...

Johnny,
Please re-read my last post. I already stated that all of the 19's I own have the arrow facing the same way. This also holds true to pieces I've seen/handled. I haven't yet seen a 19 with the arrow facing the opposite direction, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Ya Bob, sorry about that I read it quickly the first time. Mine is a 19 and the arrows face the same direction, just as you said.

Johnny, It’s very obviously your call what to do with the knife. But I don’t know if that it’s really necessary to send it out. Inasmuch as the knife by itself from the images shown (especially the later more detailed ones) I don’t think would be prompting any particular concern or comments if the blade were blank. And while I appreciate the very considerable experience that both have in Third Reich blades. I’m not aware of any special expertise in manufacturing techniques that either might possess which (IMO) is a significant aspect of the matter as to whether the commercial type of trademark on the blade was postwar added or not. And the other factor being the status of Voos as a supplier of military goods during the mid to late wartime years.

Again speaking generally: Value is a relative thing, and years ago many items that are now a lot more valuable were much cheaper. And it was not uncommon to see more or less average or better items “enhanced” back then with inscriptions, coats of arms, logos, decorated blades - whatever to get a better selling price. And they went into collections. And from the old collections some of the items periodically emerge to slowly stream into the marketplace. There are a lot of really desirable items in some old collections. And (unfortunately) there are also non-period altered items and outright fakes as well. With my point being that at the moment it’s unknown just when the blade got its logo - 60 years - 60 months - 60 days?? Who knows?

In the meantime, if I was looking for a little peace of mind, personally I would be taking the entire knife (and most especially the blade) out into the sunlight. And with strong magnification be looking at the bluing inside the trademark and on the blade ricasso. And the polish of the blade. To see if the bluing was a uniform color. And if there were any signs of discontinuities or fooling around. Regards, FP

FP- Thanks SO much for your suggestions. I have recently purchased a 12X jewlers loupe which should arrive any day now. As soon as it is in I will do as you suggested. Thanks again!
Johnny

PS- there are a few very small scratches on the blade that go over the trademark. I am hoping with the loupe I will be able to see if the scratch goes into the trade mark, or (if the trademark was applied over the scratches) there is any "flowing" of the etching acid into the pre-existing scratches. If the trademark was applied after the scratches, you should be able to see some etching to the part of the scratch just as it makes contacty with the mark. If the scratches were made after the makermark, you should be able to see a tiny scratch to the inside of the maker mark, where whatever scratched the blade "fell" into the etching or at lease damages the edge of the mark as the scratching object passed by.
Of course I know that this still is far from 100%. The maker mark could have been made last month and the scratches made last week. But at least it would establish the mark as bad if the etch flows into the scratches. I will see if I can determine anything and post again...

Hey guys,
I recieced the loupe (very cool) and took some time to check out the maker mark. Although the scratches that I posted about befor eare too small to show anything concerning the placement of the marker merk, I did find under the loupe that there is some spidering in and aroung the letter "G" in "solingen". Before I thought this was an imperfection in the etch. So I guess all I can say is that the etch is at lease old enough to have spidering in it. Anyone know how long that would take??

This is certainly an attractive knife and we all take great pride in our pieces. Having said that there are only three problems with this knife:
1- It is invaluable to understand how German industry and society operated. The trade guilds regulated everything and no maker strayed from the guild's dictates for long. Look at every other gravity knife. The maker's marks are generally uniform in size; always on the same side of the blade and and positioned the same. All are situated over the city name : SOLINGEN.
This is the only example I have ever seen with "Ges. Geschutzt" etched on the blade.
2- R.B. NR. 0/0561/0019 is the contract number for SMF. Each company was assigned its own unique contract number - no exceptions. (See
"Luftwaffe Gravity Knife" by CPT (Ret) Mack A. Pattarozzi (on e-bay now). There is an entire chapter on Reichsbetrieb numbers.
3- The alignment arrow on the BOLSTER (end cap) is the SMF style: and arrow with stylized fetchings.

So, as nice as it is, it has had the blade replaced with a fantasy blade.

ALWAYS, be veery cautious bout pieces that are "rarely seen" or "never seen before". There's good reason that they are so rrare - usually because they are not original.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. The good news is that you can get an SMF blade, fit it and you'll have a very nice representative piece.

Looks like you have just the info. I was looking for. THANKS very much for your post.
The blade is stamped on the reverse with the correct #, so I don't think the blade is a replacement. But it sounds like the fact that the etch was made post war is confirmed. Now I am wondering if I can buff the maker mark right off!
Anyway, thanks again and WELCOME to the forum! I think I need a copy of that book!
If it is a bad etch though (which I now believe) it is interesting that it is EXACTLY the same etch found on the olympic knives. Just as crisp, just as clear, and even the depth of the etch is the same as the olympic pieces....
Hmmmm....

You can find the book on ebay listed under this auction number: 150011243837. It's on "buy it now" so it's quick and easy.

Anyway I see you're from Louisville; I'm in texas. I did two tours at Ft. Knox and my wife is from Jeffersonvile; small world. Well to the knife. when I first saw the post I was completely shocked! My first thought was; "How could I have missed that maker?" But, when the fog lifted and all the other issues came into focus I understood. Infact, last night fter I posted I was thinking that the blade's assembly number was the same font as the other numbers which makes it very unlikely that the blade is a replacement. The correct blade would have been unmarked, and while there are many small differences between makers blades are pretty standardized. They all have assembly numbers stamped on them and the numbers are uniformly positioned above the keel on the reverse side of the blade. BUT, there were many different fonts used to stamp them and few are found today except in the old East Germany. I found a set of dies there once that matched those udsed on some Mausers. But the odds that anyone could match fonts is pretty unlikely. The etching is beautiful but too black. I can't recall ever seeing an original etching that was darker than a light gray. As for removing the etching... I have been repairing these knives for many years but I would have to say that it would be quite difficult and not something I would try even if it were lightly cut. Your description makes me think that it is pretty deep. A machinist may be able to grind it off but you would have to retemper it. I'm not sure what I would do if it were me. It is a very handsome piece, you have to admit that. Take care.........Mack

CaptainPattarozzi,
I would like to thank you very much for your input!!! As you know I did not have a good feeling about the logo but lacked the information as to which maker had that specific Reichsbetrieb number to cross check it against the maker. It proves that the etching even though it’s not badly done is fake. I am very interested in the book especially if it has a chapter on the R.B. Nr.’s. By any chance is there information in it on R.B. Nr.’s for German leather goods makers?

PS: If I was the owner of one the those Voos/Olympic knives and saw this thread I think that I would be starting to get a really uneasy feeling right about now. Some of them paid some fairly high prices to own one. Regards, FP