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#15550 10/11/2009 11:42 PM
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Hey Terry,

Thanks for posting your Klaas/Reider piece, looks like a nice early short model. I didn't remember that you had one too but it shouldn't surprise me. This one looks mint!

The flat Reider logo is definitely the scarcer of the 2 Reider logos, at least as far as I've seen. Here's the other Reider logo with the name in an arc.

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#15551 10/11/2009 11:44 PM
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Here's the flip side to the arc Reider, a pretty common Tiger. Tiger/Reider is probably the most common of the dual marked fire pieces. This one is a short model with nonmagnetic pommel. If anyone's seen a Tiger or Puma fire bayonet with magnetic pommel, please let me know. I never have.

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#15552 10/11/2009 11:47 PM
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While we're on the topic of Tiger logos, here is the flip side of a Tiger fire bayonet. This one is currently on it's way to a collector friend in Belgium.

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#15553 10/11/2009 11:51 PM
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One last logo, this is an early Tiger variation that I believe is pretty rare on a bayonet. This one was on a postwar etched fire bayonet with ersatz stag grips on Eban a number of years ago.

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#15554 10/11/2009 11:55 PM
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Here's a shot of the blade obverse. These etches pop up every once in a while, all those I've seen thus far had serious questions about authenticity. A real shame because of the logo, in hindsight I probably should have bought it anyway just for reference.

stench_trench.jpg (60.36 KB, 529 downloads)

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#15555 10/12/2009 04:55 AM
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Proper German term would be 'Freiwillige Feuerwehr'.

#15556 10/14/2009 01:46 AM
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Herr Wolf,

I'm happy that some postwar etched blades can be vetted by something as simple as an improper spelling of something in the German. I for one would not have identified this mistake so many thanks for the German grammar clarification. I hope to start a separate thread on etched fire bayonets & their many postwar counterparts.


Since I was working on some of the many distributors of fire bayonets, I thought I'd throw in a few of the better known marks & some rarer variations of those marks. A lot of collectors may not find such plain & obscure stampings interesting but I would say often times it is their relative obscurity that makes them desirable.

Here is the more common of 2 marks I've observed for the firm of Albert Ziegler, Giengen-Brenz. The logo is deeply stamped into the obverse ricasso of this short model. The reverse is marked with the '35-'41 Eickhorn mark. I've observed a scarce few dual marked examples with this distributor & all were marked by Eick.

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#15557 10/14/2009 01:49 AM
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This Ziegler variation shows the name "Albert" dropped in favor of the first initial "A". While this mark is also on the blade's obverse ricasso, the direction of the logo is along the blade's length. Sadly this example is not dual marked, it is a long model with nonmagnetic pommel. I used to see these on Eban years back, not too much anymore.

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#15558 10/14/2009 01:52 AM
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Here is the more commonly seen mark of the distributor Carl Busse, Mainz. There looks to be the evidence of an initial first strike that was a little too high on the ricasso for whoever was marking the blades. Interestingly I've only observed Busse's mark on fire bayonets. This mark is on a very nicely conditioned short model with magnetic pommel.

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#15559 10/14/2009 01:56 AM
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Here is a variation Carl Busse mark which I've observed just once or twice in 10 years. While both of the Busse pieces I have are of early manufacture, I believe this one to be earlier as it has a green felt buffer which I've only seen on very early production pieces. This mark is a near mint long model with magnetic pommel.

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#15560 10/14/2009 02:05 AM
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Here is the mark of distributor Carl Henkel, Bielefeld. Henkel ran a Fire Department equipment store that started in 1871 & exists to this day.

http://www.carl-henkel.de/

You can still find the occasional Henkel marked blade on Eban or dealers' sites. This long model with magnetic pommel came with an unmarked frog that I'll compare in a subsequent post.

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#15561 10/14/2009 02:10 AM
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Here is a very rare variation of Henkel's mark with the first name spelled "Karl". This is interesting in that the company's name, well known on fire helmet liners & fire tunic labels, has always been observed as being spelled "Carl". In fact the company's logo on such items is a stylized "CH".

In 10+ years, I've seen this particular variation a total of 3 times, I missed one on Brian Maederer's site several years ago. 2 more popped up in later years & I got both of those. One of them is on it's way to a collector in Argentina. I'm facing the fact you just can't keep them all Smile This one is a long model with nonmagnetic pommel.

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#15562 10/14/2009 02:11 AM
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All 3 Karl Henkel marked pieces that I've observed has this Solingen mark on the reverse ricasso.

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#15563 10/14/2009 02:12 AM
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A rare pair, together probably for the first time since the assembly line.

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#15564 10/14/2009 02:15 AM
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When I received 1 of the Karl Henkels, this was the icing on the cake. Maker marked patent leather frogs are pretty scarce but it's a very nice treat to find one that matches the distributor of the blade. The frog is near mint & very high quality as compared to the usually seen thin & heat crazed examples.

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#15565 10/14/2009 02:18 AM
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Here is a shot of the frog that came off the Karl Henkel bayonet (top) alongside the identical but unmarked frog (bottom) that came off the Carl Henkel bayonet. Same rivets, same stitching, same leather, exact but for the mark.

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#15566 10/15/2009 01:03 AM
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Many would think that we as collectors would be familiar with the marks that adorn the Solingen blades we collect but this is not always so. While books like Fisher's guide & Anthony Carter's volume 1 do a great deal in assisting us identify obscure maker marks, there are still plenty of marks out there that we know nothing about. Here are a few of these pieces & their marks.

The mark on this bayonet, JHW-E, is still unidentified. I've seen 2 or 3 of this mark only which leads me to believe it might be the mark of a distributor. The initials looks like it might be a 3 initial name with the "E" being a location. This might be completely incorrect but it's interesting to think about. This long model bayonet came from Ron Weinand & it has a nonmagnetic pommel. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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#15567 10/15/2009 01:11 AM
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Here is another such unknown mark, L&WH in a circle. Again, maybe a distributor but maybe not as I've seen this mark for many years. Not common but common enough that it's anyone's guess.

Most that I observed were late production & in less than nice condition so it took several years of looking to find one in the shape I was looking for. This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a long model with nonmagnetic & despite the poor quality parts, doesn't show it's age.

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#15568 10/15/2009 01:13 AM
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You've all probably seen this mark occasionally on a dealer's site or Eban, they are scarce but out there. No one I know of is aware of the origin of this mark, H&PK inside a triangle. Distributor? Maybe, no one knows definitively so it's up in the air.

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a late production long model with nonmagnetic hilt. Anyone with a hint of this mark's origin, please post your thoughts.

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#15569 10/15/2009 01:19 AM
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I've seen this mark a total of once, this one is it. It came from a German dealer several years ago & he had no information to impart regarding the crown logo. Initially I thought it might be the mark from the Erfurt armory but that mark is slightly different & usually has "Erfurt" underneath. There are several other manufacturers, Schmidt being one, that incorporated a crown in their usual logos but none have been exact.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a late production long model that's starting to show it's age. Please be sure to post any thoughts on this mark if you have any ideas.

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#15570 10/15/2009 01:25 AM
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This mark, "HK" in a dotted circle, has been spoken about for years on GD. There were several suggestions as to the mark's identity but Peter Costible suggested to me that he thought it was the mark of Heinrich Krieghoff, the famed Luger manufacturer. As proof, Peter sent me a picture from a Luger reference book showing Krieghoff's mark.

The mark which was on the top of a pistol was identical to this mark, down to the dotted circle. Nothing definite but it seems this might be the maker's identity. To my knowledge, Krieghoff is not credited with manufacturing any other edged weapon.

This mark is one of three I own & have observed. It was my first HK & the one most frequently encountered by collectors. This mark is on the obverse of a short model with nonmagnetic hilt.

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#15571 10/15/2009 01:35 AM
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This variation HK mark also has the dotted circle but is slightly different from the preceeding one in that the letter bottoms have serifs. HK is a scarce mark but I've only observed this variation 2 or 3 times in 10 years.

This mark is on the obverse of a very nicely conditioned, early production short model with magnetic hilt.

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#15572 10/15/2009 01:41 AM
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This is the last of the 3 HK marks. The logo is in script & I didn't know what to make of it when I received it. But I noticed the dotted circle which was similar to the other HK marks & then I realized the initials were a cursive HK.

The grip plates on this example is lighter in color that the usually seen black bakelite. The grip plates are either a type of plastic or wood & they exhibit holes that look like wormholes. I've seen this same material on other early production pieces & for some reason it doesn't seem to hold up well. The blade is very nice as is the rest of it. This is the 3rd example I've seen of this mark.

I sold Terry Kissinger one of the others, the grip had the afforementioned wormholes. Terry is a nut for condition & knowing this, he still wanted the one I sold him which must tell you something about the rarity of the mark Wink

This mark is on the obverse of a early production short model with magnetic hilt.

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#15573 10/15/2009 01:54 AM
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This bayonet is not a fireman's bayonet, per se, but it factors into the current "unknown" category in several ways. First, notice the logo which looks to be an Imperial fire helmet with top comb. I've seen some dealers offer bayonets with this mark offering the suggestion that it's an early fire bayonet. Maybe, maybe not but the logo is cool IMO despite the crossguard not being recurved. Sometimes this logo is accompanied by the initials "W.F.P" but not always. Anyone with an idea as to the identity of this mark please post your thoughts.

The bakelite grip plates are the identical material as the preceeding HK with script logo. From this picture, you can see one of the wormholes that these grips tend to suffer from. There are a couple more on the reverse grip too Frown

The blade on this example is 10 1/4" in length, not the 9 3/4" usually seen on long model bayonets. I have several other fire examples that have such a blade, all are very early production. This example also sports a green felt blade buffer which can sometimes be seen on the early pieces. This mark is on the obverse of a very early production bayonet with magnetic pommel & "T/O" slot.

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#15574 10/15/2009 01:58 AM
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A better shot of the bayonet's obverse hilt. I've seen maybe a dozen of these pieces & they're usually in beat up condition although the blades are close to pristine. Guess they don't make 'em like they used to.

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#15575 10/15/2009 04:35 AM
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Billy:

Peter is correct... the 1st HK mark for Heinrich Krieghoff is shown in the Fisher Quick Reference (it's on page 1249 of the 7th edition).

Paul Hogle has had one on his site for a while at lakesidetrader.com

John


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#15576 10/15/2009 05:49 PM
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sorry about the crap pic but , here is my J.H.W.-E. i too would like more info if poss guys

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#15577 10/16/2009 01:06 AM
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Billy

I'm (we) are enjoying your fire thread. I'm trying to improve my photo taking so I thought I would test them here. The below photos are of my Horst Wolff Fire bayonet. Ok top photo is a little soft I'll use my tripod next time. The name is etched on the spine of the blade.

Thanks again Billy for restarting this thread.




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#15578 10/16/2009 09:36 PM
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I guess I need to learn how to adjust the lighting better.

Anyway, here is a Peter Lunstrass, Solingen Ohligs, see TM insert.



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#15579 10/17/2009 02:19 AM
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Terry,

I'm very happy you're enjoying the new thread, I'm enjoying it as well. Since the last one disappeared, I know a lot of new pieces have been acquired so this one might even work out to be as good as the last one or better. I'm hoping anyway. I took a number of these shots months ago but had time issues in terms of lightening/darkening the shots as well as reducing them, but had been meaning to reastart it for a while. I'm very happy thus far.

Your inset photography & microscope logo shots is very professional & puts my crummy shots to shame. Thanks for posting some of your pieces, I know you have some real nice ones. Looking at them on GD always renewed my interest in Feuerwehr & dress bayonet collecting in general at times when my interst might wane.

Here's a shot of the Lungstrass lightfixture, a maker that I believe cannot have made very many bayonets at all. Besides your 2 & my 1, maybe I've seen 1 other. A tough mark to find & an even tougher mark to photograph. This mark is quite small & tough to get the detail to show up, even with a macro setting. This mark is on a long model with nonmagnetic blade, nicely conditioned but not nearly as nice as yours!


Will,

Thanks for showing your JHW-E, a very rare mark to find. I know of one other on the net now although I don't think the condition is so hot. I took a cursory look at Fisher's & Carter's books but didn't see anything that looked like it fit. Maybe something's there? I'll give it a closer look one of these days, just to see if anything in there fits with the initials.


John,

I had no doubts about Peter C's thought about Krieghoff. I remember looking at the guides & there were a few possibilites with the initials "HK" but that dotted circle made it a no brainer. It's an exact match but something very interesting as I don't think Krieghoff is credited with making any other blades.

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#15580 10/17/2009 02:28 AM
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Since I mentioned the maker in the last post, here's a shot of Hoppe & Homann, Hufeisenfabrik, Minden in Westf & their nice stylized logo. Another member pointed out in the last fire bayonet thread that a Hufeisenfabrik was a horseshoe manufacturer Smile

This is another one of those marks that is attributed to an obscure maker & not a manufacturer, who's mark only appears on fire bayonets. There are others I'll add as time allows. It's very interesting though since the only difference between a fire bayonet & standard KS98 was the hilt.

This mark is on a nice short model with wide blood groove & magnetic pommel. Them horseshoe makers made nice bayonets Smile

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#15581 10/17/2009 02:47 AM
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Speaking of marks that are exclusive to fire bayonets, Horst Wolff, GmbH Leipzig, is such a distributor. Old Horst's marks used to be one of the more frequently seen distributor marks. Still is actually but Horst had some variation marks that weren't seen so much.

Here is the most commonly seen Horst Wolff mark, very small block letters crunched together into the ricasso. You can still snag one of Eban or a dealer's site if you look. This particular mark in addition to having the corporation designation GmbH (Gesellschaft mit beschraenkter Haftung) & in addition to having the location of Leipzig, also includes the postal code of C1. Of the 4 Horst Wolff marks I've observed, the 2 later ones have it.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a later production long model with nonmagnetic pommel. Sorry for the poor shot with smudge Frown

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#15582 10/17/2009 02:51 AM
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This is a Horst Wolff variation that I've seen once. Yup, this one is all I've seen. When the seller mentioned the mark to me in an email & it didn't include the postal code, I thought it might be some variant. Happily I was right. The mark has larger, deeper letters in an arc.

This mark is on the reverse ricasso of a very minty early long model with magnetic pommel.

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#15583 10/17/2009 02:59 AM
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Once in a while we see a bayonet with a distributor's mark etched into the blade spine & Horst Wolff is one of those few distributors to do it. After seeing Terry's example (posted above) some years back, I predictably decided I had to have one. They're out there but not often seen & then you have the condition aspect. I did get one in the mail but it was a beater & it just stuck in my craw. I flipped it fast & set out for another.

This one came relatively cheaply as the seller mentioned the mark without the fact of where it was located. I magnified the ricasso shots which looked devoid of marks & thought this one a spine piece. A slight touch of old rust on the pommel is all that really skews it from being really super. Overall still a nice piece that I can't bring myself to part with.

This mark is on an early long model with beautifully elongated crossguard & magnetic Eickhorn pommel although the piece is not dual marked.

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#15584 10/17/2009 03:06 AM
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This is the 4th Horst Wolff mark I've observed & this is the only time I've seen it. Instead of the normally seen perpendicular ricasso mark, this mark runs along the blade & is lightly done. In fact some of the letters are tough to make out but when the seller mentioned "Leipzig", I figured I knew who it was.

This mark is similar to a Albert Ziegler variation mark I posted above. Very shallow & looks almost acid etched. This one also has the postal code & from the construction looks to be later production. These late production pieces often show their age a little more that I like but we collectors sometimes make concessions, especially when a rare mark comes around.

This mark is on the obverse ricasso of a late production long model.

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#15585 10/18/2009 05:46 PM
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Had a bad computer failure a couple of weeks ago the result being I had to buy a new one. I'm still rebuilding my favorites, trying desperately to remember passwords etc. I finally got back on here today and imagine my delight at finding this thread resurrected from the ashes so to speak. It was always my favorite thread.

It's off to a great start already, some beautiful pieces and an amazing number of views already. Thanks for starting it back up Billy.

My sawback unfortunately isn't a Reider/Klaas, it's a Klaas with the inventory #24 on the obverse crossguard. Still quite a nice piece though not perfect.

You ask about Tiger/Puma with magnetic pommel etc., my short Tiger has a magnetic pommel and crossguard. It has the slinking tiger on the obverse with TIGER over SOLINGEN on the reverse, one of my better pieces as well. My Puma though is pot metal.

I suppose all this means that I have to learn about my new camera Confused. Hopefully some pics coming shortly.


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#15586 10/18/2009 09:13 PM
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This A. Ziegier is like the one you posted. There are other versions of this distributor. I have another one with Albert Ziegler in an oval over Giengen Brenz w/ Eickhorn on the oppsite side. This bayonet is just about as mint as you can find.


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#15587 10/19/2009 01:50 AM
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Jim,

Glad to see you back on the computer & online Smile The fire bayonet thread was my favorite too & I'm happy it's back. I remembered that there were a lot more pieces I had to photograph before I restarted it but then procrastination took it's toll.

Very interesting about your magnetic Tiger, I've never seen one myself & I've handled bunches of Tiger pieces. Can you post it when time allows? I'd like to see if there are any differences between it & the others.


Terry,

That Ziegler looks pretty minty, the logo is very well stamped too. How different is the other oval Ziegler logo you refer to from the one I posted on page 3? Mine is a short model dual marked with the '35-'41 Eickhorn mark.


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#15588 10/19/2009 01:56 AM
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P.D. Lüneschloss is a maker mark you hardly ever see on a dress bayonet. According to Fisher, PDL was established in 1810 & although no date of closing is given in my edition, we can tell they were making blades at least as late as 1939 because we know they made RZM SS daggers with that date.

I've observed this particular mark on Weimar Polizei bayonets & hirschfangers as well as the occasional 3R era bayonet. Has anyone seen it on anything else?

This bayonet is a very early production short model with wide blood groove & magnetic pommel. Similar to many early pieces from lesser seen manufacturers, this one exhibits an Eickhorn hilt.

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#15589 10/19/2009 02:02 AM
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Posts: 5,070
Likes: 15
OP Online Content
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,070
Likes: 15
Here is the flip side to the preceeding bayonet, it shows the a later PDL logo with helmet & sword although this exact logo is still relatively early. The bakelite pattern on this bayonet is the later seen type but it does show an early tan felt blade buffer that is original to the piece.

penisaurus.JPG (109.49 KB, 422 downloads)

GDC Gold Badge #290
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