UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Rohm Dagger Forum SA partial Rohm - personalized & with chrome scabbard

This one came in yesterday. It has a chrome scabbard and has somebody's name on it which I would guess would be the vet that bought it back?

I don't question it's authenticity but what do you think about the scabbard being chrome?

I know it's hard to believe but the photos I saw, made the scabbard look like it was black, with the black wearing off... not chrome. Even the description said that the paint was wearing off, no mention of it being chrome.

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Here's 1 photo where I thought the scabbard was once black... should have my eyes tested...

You didn't mention is there was a bench number on the bottom of the lower cross guard. Not a big deal if it doesn't but nice if it does. Looks like a legite Rohm Dagger by Eickhorn from what I can see. The vet probably engraved his name and had the scabbard chromed. I've seen this before. Those crazy guys!

Gailen David

No bench mark unfortunately, would have been good though.

The name engraved on the scabbard is neither German nor is the engraving Germanic in style.
This coupled with the chrome scabbard would seen to indicate post war vet "enhancements". Here is a case where IMO a legitimate restoration is in order. I'd have the scabbard redone for sure and consider removing the crossguard "enhancements".
Jim

Just find yourself another same vintage Eichorn SA and switch scabbards. I would refinish nothing if it was mine. Any guy worth his salt can tell a refinished scabbard.

Gailen David

SDP, nice dagger.

Regading the engraving. There are at least 15 Heer officers with "Thomas" as a last name listed in the Army 1939 rank list. Didnt bother to check the others. Re. the script, I dont think we have enough evidence to reject is as non-period... We had a good thread on this issue http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6393090285/m/7410038334/p/1

who knows, this could be the owner´s name.

The engraving does not appear to be consistant with German engraving. Could be, but I don't think so. I see one "Thomas" in the 1944 SS Dienstalterliste. Loaned my other list to a friend so I can check no further.

Gailen David

No way is the name a period engraving. This is modern machine engraving. I've seen enough to know.

Ed, I would be very grateful if you could elaborate on why you think this is post-war machine made. Great topic

I would say that lettering is so absolutely precise that it is open to question. I have never seen that style and font and precision before that I though was hand-done.

In addition, the chromed scabbard says that a later owner fiddled with it.

Dave

This engraving is very precise in every angle and movement and only achieved by a form of jig and not a period hand engraving where the letters are never exact as they are with a machine.

This poses an interesting dilemma. I agree that just switching the scabbard out is the easiest way to go here. However: If the chromed example is the original scabbard aren't were preserving more by restoring it to it's original configuration?
BTW: Ed Sunday is right on IMO with his assessment of the engraving.
Jim

i knew this script style reminded me of something. I think it was a named dagger Paul Hogle had on his site with the name "Paul Kannapin" it was sold and its not there any more but i think it was very similar. Anyone remember that one?

I was just trying to google for historical engraving machines, pantographs etc. Seems the first pantograph dates from 1938, but i have no idea what it was capable of producing in terms of script

I think there's a pretty good chance that this is the original scabbard to the dagger.

Check out the scabbard to lower crossguard fit on both sides...

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This past February at a fund raising antiques appraisal show in East Tennessee, I saw an identical "name only" ground Roehm in a chrome or nickel-plated scabbard. It too was an Eickhorn. The dagger was sold to an antiques dealer at the show for the appraisal price. I believe it too had an engraved name on the scabbard. I know the dealer who bought it, and will ask him.
I had no interest because I too thought it had been "monkeyed with" by an American soldier, and I am not really a dagger collector.

An interesting point came up in this thread - were pantograph or engraving machines used for IDs or dedications on daggers ? All the things I have seen on SA/SS crossguards or scabbards have either been stamped or engraved by hand as far as I can tell.

Dave

This is an engraving machine / pantograph used in the 1920s and 30s to engrave clocks, dedications on sword blades etc (see the description by ebay seller who researched this machine).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=...0082326224&rd=1&rd=1

The best known german equivalent of this was and is Deckel.

There are “pantograph engraving machines” - and then there are "(rotary) pantograph engraving machines". The first uses a chisel type cutting tool not unlike that used by hand engravers, only designed to be used in a machine. The other uses a rotary cutting head like that of a Dremel tool or dentist’s drill. From what I can see the machine Gustavo posted is the earlier chisel type.

The work done on the locket of the scabbard posted here (IMO) is with a rotary cutting tool. I’ve reposted one of sdp’s images that appears to show that kind of work done by a rotary cutter which leaves swirl marks.

As a point of interest rotary engravers themselves I believe were invented shortly after the turn of the century. But were not in widespread use being used more in industrial applications. By the mid 1930’s they were still not in widespread use. But had exhibited some interesting abilities, not the least of which was the engraving of the Lord’s Prayer on the head of a pin by an American company for an industrial exhibition in 1935. That said, there is no doubt in my mind that all of the scabbard “enhancements” seen on this scabbard are postwar. FP

FP I really respect your knowledge in this area. Would you agree or disagree with the following: The appearance of an inscription as having been machine engraved does not in itself rule it out as being (National Socialist) period done.

Gustavo, The machines existed so I have to agree, but with a couple of caveats/cautions because IMHO it’s not a simple yes or no answer. Rotary pantograph engraving existed during the time of the Third Reich and in fact is seen on some period artifacts. But to the best of my recollection not in the early 1930’s but afterwards. That said, with those items where rotary engraving was used, they seem to have been used in either a government or factory setting. Which from the examples I seen means the machines were not small and probably fairly expensive.

And please permit me to add something that I think has a bearing on the topic in general. In a Germany still in a depression. With a shortage of machinery of all types. And an abundance of talent and cheap labor. For a single line of inferior quality engraving, why would somebody use rotary engraving when so many conventional engravers were available to do a better job at a nominal cost?? Regards, FP

Fred, you took the words right out of my mouth. When I was in Switzerland the Watch and Jewelry industry was offering classes on old world hand engraving and enameling which are both lost art today. In our area in Canton, Ohio there was one of the largest watch and watch case producers in the country ,(Deuber Hampden) and everything was hand engraved. I still remember some of my fathers jeweler associates doing their own hand engraving and it was a treat to see them work! If someone mentioned , you ought to get one of those new fangled machines to do that they would have replied,Hogwash!

FP and Ed, I totally agree. I cant imagine small jewelers having these expensive machines. I would love to know, however, if the large dagger distributors / Uniform stores (Heereskleiderkasse in Berin and Dresden for e.g.) would have something like this and would use it for single dagger personalizations at the request of officers picking up their stuff.... Most engraved daggers you see definitely dont appear to be machine engraved.

SMALL WORLD! I just learned that this is the SAME dagger I saw at the antiques appraisal show in East Tennessee in February. It now resides in London.

What was it appraised at?

I don't know. I saw the dagger early in the morning, but it did not interest me because of the chrome or nickle-plated scabbard. It had not been appraised at that time.
Later in the day, I ran into the dealer who bought the dagger. I told him about the piece and told him where it was.
Later he told me that he suggested that the fellow have the appraisal done, and he might buy it if the owner was willing to sell at the appraised price. That is what happened, but I did not ask the dealer the price he paid, and he didn't volunteer the information.