UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons German Sword & Miniatures Forum SS Officers Degen

Craig:
I call you between now and then. Are you flying or driving?
Jim

Dale Ellis: Why do you think the knot on Boerse's sword is from Reddick? The reason why I'm asking is because Boerse wouldn't know. I did some work on his sword and hung on this knot which was in my junkbox. This knot actually looks more 'seasoned' than shown in the picture. I just spruced it up a bit to match the condition of the sword.

George, You did an excellent job of getting across your viewpoint. There is something to be said for being direct and not trying to make a point in a round about manner (to which I will plead Nolo Contendre). When the sword was supposed to have been manufactured the company had as near as I can tell already dropped off the radar screen as a producer of anything. It may have been a subcontractor to make something else. But as yet I have not found any evidence if it did or what that might have been.

Mvogel, I can't seem to find my Reddick catalog. What I don't like about the knot is the irregular shape of the circle and runes. Also the embroidery looks all humped up. On good knots it seems to be more of a weave.
What does Houston think? Looking in the Wittmann book it seems to shows this type knot on pages 351 and 381.
Jim, I geuss it was just the photo. It looked like a weld between the tang and blade ricasso.

I don't like the look of that knot either. I doubt if it is a RR but it just does not look right-runes are a bit fuzzy.

Thank you, Houston. Who do you think may have put this type of knot out. Johnson? I had a flyer from Reddick that said they had found some unissued SS officer and NCO knots. They looked similar. One other thing. Everyone should look out for, the last knots I saw from Reddick, the runes did not touch. Thanks

I don�t trust this etched blade at all. And we know this kinda slogan (not exactly the same) from several other copy blades.

Robert:
Can you post some examples of the etching you're talking about? No one else here seems to ever have seen an etch on a blade like the one I posted.
Jim

No I don�t have pictures from a saber blade or an M33 blade with this etching. But I remember well the M33 ones with the Motto "F�r Tapferkeit im Ostfeldzug 1942" like who where offered on militariaweb.com or some other internet sides. I am sure here on the forum you will find this kinda blade and also I am sure some collectors know this blades as well.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8790&highlight=Tapferkeit+OStfeldzug+1942

Robert:
I have asked many people I know in this business over the last 3 years if they had ever seen a blade like this one and the answer has been no. That's the principal reason I decided to post it here to try and get it identified.
I said straight off that I don't have an opinion one way or the other as to the genuiness of this blade and that I'm soliciting information and candid opinions.
It would be helpful if those opinions were backed up with facts.
The link you provided is to a discussion of an SS dagger not a sword and even then there's nothing definitive.
Jim

Then we would need a hands on inspection on this blade, as for me I would realy wonder if this blade is original.

Jim, Straight up.......... I don�t claim to understand all the nuances of the German language or military custom. If we look at only the sword presentation inscription by itself and none of the other issues, it is my understanding that it has etched on it the name and rank of the presenter not that of the individual being awarded the sword. While I also have some doubts about the SS dagger that Robert posted, if I am correct, I suppose it�s possible that a dagger could have been ordered and presented by an SS-Oberstrumbannf�hrer (Lieutenant Colonel) because they were for sale to qualified individuals.

SS Daggers are one thing. SS Honor Swords are another. If my assumption is a factual one then I do have a problem with an SS-Oberstrumbannf�hrer ordering and presenting an Ehrendegen. It is my understanding that they were only given/presented by Heinrich Himmler himself as the Reichsf�hrer der SS. Whether it was an award document or a birthday sword, Himmler�s name was either on the document or a blade (I would image) to remind recipients of who it was that gave them the Honor Sword. If that is true I can�t image an Honor Sword, especially one for bravery: 1) Being awarded by somebody at the rank of a Lieutenant Colonel 2) Being awarded by the RF SS without his name being on the blade - if there was going to be a presentation inscription placed on the blade.

My reasoning could be in error. If it is then I hope that someone will correct me so that I can learn something for future reference.
FP

Interesting point Fred:
I still think that if this sword is period it was a one-off, special ordered late on and produced by a firm that didn't usually make SS swords. Lets see what C. Gottliebs observations are when he does a hands on next week.
Jim

I think I owe everyone an update here and all I can tell you after Craigs visit is The jurys still out!!

I got home, and did some research in concert with my writing partner, Fred Stephens. What we came up with was this. Here is a picture of a portion of a reproduction SS sword blade that made the rounds in the 1970s. They came in several different etches - some even had Himmler dedications similar to the Birthday Degen inscriptions. One common characteristic on them all was a very elongated acorn nut in the acorn design. You can see it in the photo I have attached. Jim's acorns were also elongated, leading us to believe that his sword is from the batch of reproduction swords, similar to the one attached here. It should also be noted that these swords were constructed out of converted police swords. That Jim's SS Rune was not superbly inset, as one would expect on a presentation sword, leads me to believe that his sword is probably one of these "upgraded" pieces. So, in summary, I vote "reproduction" after careful consideration, and comparison to a known reproduction series. Or better yet, a parts sword, with a reproduction blade. Still, the piece was very convincing and a beautiful work of art.

Thanks for the research and the update Craig. This sword came with a large collection purchased a couple of years ago which included two post war artificial damascus SS daggers. Since the amount of good items in this collection more than offset the repos the sword is no great loss to me financially. This also should serve as a warning to others as the collector ceased acquiring by 1975 and these items were in storage until I bought them. It is often stated that swords are/were never faked on a large scale bu SS degens are certainly the exception. As Craig pointed out the rest of the parts are period and it still makes a beautiful display piece.
Interestingly enough; I now believe that the "Brandt" inscribed on the blade is in reference to Rudolf Brandt who was Himmlers Personal Administrative Officer who was tried and sentenced to death at the "Doctors" trial in Nuremberg.
Jim

Jim - interesting info about Brandt. As for this particular series of reproductions, it's very interesting to note that the manufacturer made several variations, and obviously didn't mass-produce. Jim's might be the only such example that was produced. Was this "limited production run" an attempt by the manufacturer to bleed these into the market as originals? I have no idea, but it seems like a clever thing to do. Incidentally, if anyone has any other exmaples like this, with the "long acorn" etch, I would love to photograph them. Please contact me.

Jim,

I want to say, "thank you" for having the guts to put your questionable sword up for discussion. This discussion has been both analytical and civil. This is largely due to your quest for true knowledge and posts. This is the way that we all learn and is what this forum should be all about, IMHO.

George

Lakesidetrader has one of these swords but without the oakleafs, just with the motto. Purchased from Wittman. What�s about with this sword????

http://www.lakesidetrader.com/pics/SW-70d.jpg

Lakeside's, degen is very different from the one Jim had. The etch on LST's looks good but who knows?