UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories SS & SA Uniform Forum my first SS tunic

Hi John c'mon if you can't see the true intent by now. In all honesty he does offer a very good return policy and he stands by what he sells but I was referring to past posts where his ability to consistantly produce rare, near mint SS tunics came into question. Reputations of dealers have never clouded my judgement. cheers, Ryan

Mr. Jerry, I believe there is a picture of one of those tabs in Angolias book, there were different types but I havent seen any like the one on the tunic discussed anywhere but in these forums.

I know Ryan but I would hate to see legit collar tab analysis take a turn into a Dealer mud fest or flower fest for that matter.

Hopefully this thread will stay calm - unlike the two on this tunic over on the WAF that are now deleted. Those threads went up like a lighted match on gasoline.....

Hello, IMO the rune tab in question is not right! The angle, shape, and the weave is not correct. The tunic appears to be good, but the tab is not correct. Grant.

1)john made a point before that in the past he has only seen striped ones that were unused.(2)the tunics real the eagles real can eny one see eny problems with the way its applied i think we need to work back and not just concentrate on tab.(3) this could be a tunic with eagle and no tabs but then why go to all that trouble and stick on a fake set.(4) if these tabs have been seen be for and are deemed fake can some one put one up.(5) this line test is not a solid clue-shin at best its a guide line.kind regards judas

will that put what i was asking out the window Grant must have been writing the same time

you can draw lines all day long guys, this proves nothing, as least draw straight!!. this takes me back to my school days.........long ago....


slim

Dear Mr 'Slim'

What is your point?
You say it's your first tunic and you haven't got much experience on SS cloth... You've asked opinions... You've received them from very knowledgable people... Now, make your own conclusions...

Kind regards,
Gerd V

dear mr willysproject;
my point is this line test is bxxxxxs , proves nothing other than people with to much time on their hands! i have made my conclusions and am very happy with them thankyou for asking!!

best

slim

For me an opinion from Grant Bias means alot on this or any forum.He is a well thought of collector of cloth insignias with a vast amount of experience in that area. That you choose to ignore the opinions given after you posted here even stating its your first tunic speaks volumes.We may have too much time on our hands but you must have too much money to spend.

As I told at WA, by me this runic tab is a modern repro.SLIM, But in any case it is your choice and your money. However if originality of items isn't so important for you, you can safe your money and buy items at re-enactors sites.

is that what you do because lets face it your USSR comrades are upto their necks in it......

All of the Sahariana jackets that I've encountered only had the ss sleeve eagle on them. Most of the collectors that I know readily admitt they added the collar tabs and shoulder boards.
This angle test that has been put forth for about two years is fine, I know the advanced collector who devised it and is a member of this forum. However if the collar tab has been removed and has shrunken from being wet and then repressed, as many of these are, the runes may not line up.
I would also ask for some members to take a look at the SS1 on page 121 of Mike Beaver's Uniform book and let me know your thoughts on the angle test.Thanks Sonny

Regardless of the originality of the tab or not and I echo what John states, no one is perfect but if Grant states that he doesn't like it then that would be enough for me to send it back. Try to sell it down the road and see what happens. If you are going to keep and nurture it forever good for you.The collecting fraternity for these expensive tunics is relatively close and once given the kiss of death....no one that I recall has come forward and stated that they like and have no issues with the tab. This is the first mint tunic with mint tabs that I have ever seen offerred. No need to get nasty when asked for opinions. Just a sign of one's true nature and intent. cheers, Ryan

SLIM.
I feel sad that this has happened to you. You have certainly chosen the most controversial area of this hobby " SS cloth " Yes as Ryan said the "kiss of death" now hangs over your tunic because of a suspect runes tab!Im afraid that's the risk posting nice clear images.[ASK YOURSELF,WHY DO YOU THINK THAT MOST HIGH END COLLECTORS NEVER POST THEIR COLLECTION ON HERE] That'S why of course that most dealers litarery hate these forums because of various things they cant get away with and beleive me they would if they could make an extra pound more out of you !
I hope you can resolve this problem in your own way and If you are happy with it then thats fine.It is yourself who you must satisfy no one else,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,HOOPER

Hi Hooper do you have any constructive wisdom about the originality of the tab ?

John,
The last time I commented negativly on an item I was pulled up by a moderator for not explaining in depth what was wrong with it.I ain't going there again !!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh and my comment was "not for me Im afraid"

I hear you.

quote:

Originally posted by JohnPic79:
Ryan does every dealer always sell real things or do any of them occaisionally have a questionable item? How can an item be original just because of a reputation? I say that too many people use the names of the dealers they buy from to authenticate an item. An item should sell itself.Debate over authenticity has nothing to do with who sells it.

I agree wholeheartedly with John's opinion here. Everyone makes mistakes..and several of the dealers I've dealt with have on more than one ocassion. If the dealer is reptuable..he should have NO problem is refunding the item if your not satisfied. The piece must stand or fall on its own merits..and not upon its source. A lot of people bought Ford Pinto's..Ford certainly made some good cars... but the fact that it was a Ford didnt make the exploding rear gas tanks anyless lethal..a bit off point..but just a thought. As to the SS Saharina.in the early to mid 90's..I remember these real unissued tunics were not difficult to find. I dont remember ever seeing one with anything other than a factory eagle. I've owned an SS saharina that never had an SS eagle..but had a factory Luft eagle..and was real. My opinion..just as with Luft tropical tunics..full collar insignia were the exception and not the norm. That certianly dosnt mean tht it could not be possible..as I have seen period pics of full collar insignia being worn. I would just approach any saharina tunic with anything more than eagle and boards with suspicion, EVEN if the tabs were 100 percent right. and then my gut feeling would be that such collar insignia would be attached by the soldier after issue..and most likey worn..and not in unissued condition. Just my opinion..

This thread is a prime example as to why knowledgable SS collectors don't participate anymore. Nothing personal against you Slim, but you ask for opinions and thoughts about your new tunic and we give them to you, then you don't want to listen. All that I can say my friend, is that , you are going to spend a lot of hard earned money on mistakes. Anyway, here are 100% original examples of wartime raised cotton rune EM collar tabs. Please look and learn and you will see what I am talking about.

rune#2.

rune#3.

rune#4.

rune#5.

rune#6

rune#7

rune#8

rune#9

rune#10

Grant Bias, I thank you for posting your tabs,,and the other members also. A straight edge put on these properly and the rune lines would seem to prove out this newer criteria as one of the ways to authenticate these tabs.

As far as experienced guys not posting, Keeping silent about fakes like the tabs shown on the jacket is a real dis-service to everyone in the hobby...Originals are rare, tough to find.. Letting this one on the jacket go without correct comments on this forum would have gone towards one of the 'vetting' aspects of the piece as original. Once that happens these good counterfeits become 'real' and will start show up even more but now as 'known originals'.., G.

Good point,and always remember because people find something faulty they are not doing because they have an agenda.My only purpose is to weed out the questionable from the good.The good stuff is not as readily available but it will be available if you wait. I thank Grant for his efforts here and know that a number of silent watchers learned something from it.

The longer I collect the more I am convinced that most SS tunics are put-together. Some have original insignia and some not, but still they are sold as untouched originals.
It's from my own experience that I noticed that the biggest enemy is within me. I wanted desperately to believe my item - tunic - was real and all other opinions I ruled out as jealousy. Without acknowledging ones mistakes or lack of experience, this hobby can never be learned. It's not the mistake one should be ashamed of, but the way one deals with a mistake. We have all been there and we all learn every day.

Grant, many thanks for your great input.

Excellent tabs Grant!
That Pink piped one is the best!
Steve Androsko

When I tried to put forward the line test over on the WAF in the now deleted thread, both Gary Wood and John Donovan said they had not heard of it being applied to enlisted runics (only officers). I believe it is clear that it can be applied to them. However, is is only one test and I do realise that there can be variations.

Variations yes,but it must be remembered that variations are the exception. When more than a few variants start to appear on tunics then we have more reason to investigate and find out why.

Fred,You are absolutely correct.IMO most are restored and then sold as untouched.Not so bad if everything is original and the Tunic was actually an SS used tunic. But not quite fair that they are priced as untouched rarities.Im aware of even some older pieces of some fame that were restored although that was never mentioned as they passed through the hands of time or were used as examples in books.

Personally.I dont have any problem owning something as described by John..an original SS tunic with original SS insignia applied to it..as long as its authentic for the piece it represents, and is fully disclosed by the seller. However..in very few instances does one ever see it disclosed.

How many Heer tunics and visors/headgear have had the eagles restored? With the exception of most waffenrocks I would venture to say many. These uniforms were worn after capitulation. De-nazification was in full swing and this applied to buildings and clothing. First thing to go eagles and swastikas. There are many pictures to support this.I have never had a problem with their replacement. I have yet to see a tunic for sale either on site or at a show or a piece of headgear where the seller mentioned this fact.Improbable at best. After one or two sales how would someone know for absolute certain that insignia had been added or replaced? A science now for sure. I have an SS officer's visor that has had the insignia removed. Now do I add the insignia before offerring to you guys? Is it deceitful not to mention and does the replaced insignia have an adverse affect on the value of the cap? cheers, Ryan

I believe there still untouch original ss em's tunics in old collections still exist. AS the same with headgear from helmets to overseas cap to edge weapons besides being cared for by cleaning occasionally.

Joe Semen

Joe, To answer your question, Yes, there is. I have only 6 original unmessed with SS uniforms, two dot pattern suits, two smocks, and one overcoat, and I have been collecting for years. All but two have come directly from veteran buys out of hotel shows. I would be extremely skeptical on buying any on todays market! Let me clear things up as to what I am saying, I am refering to "Untouched Examples". I think that 98% of the SS uniforms out on todays market are put togethers ie. one, if not all, insignia have been added to an original uniform. Also, if you look on certain websites you will see SS tunic after SS tunic for sale and priced for 4 - 9K range, come-on, lets get real. Why is it that well known dealers sell their SS EM, NCO, or Officer tunics for in excess of 20K, well there is a reason for that, not because they are price gougers, but, because they are untouched originals! Lets face it, 15K, 20K, or up is a whole lot of money, so if you cannot afford those prices and want an SS tunic, then you will have to assume that it will be a Put-together. If you can live that and be happy, then so be it.
In IMHO in the next twenty years you will see a lot of old time collections be bought out or broken up. I know that there are a lot of 100% original untouched examples, some which are pictured in books, will come out for sale over this period of time. The queston is, will they be made available for the public? I beleive that the vast majority of them will not. ie. There will be deals done in private by closet collectors and dealers without anyone knowing. Does any other member(s) remember Bob Alexanders collection being broken up? Bob had some really nice stuff and all of the good items were sold in private. I remember that Steve Wolfe and Neil Harding bought first, then It was Walter Hombach, etc.. , then the rest was laid out on tables at the MAX show in Pittsburg back in the late 1990's. The point is, all of the untouched really good stuff was gone before it was offered to the public. So, there are a couple things that could happen, first: All sales could be done in private just like Bob Alexanders stuff, second: It could be made available to the public, but the prices will be out-of-sight, or third: All of the serious SS collectors who drove the prices up anyway are the ones whose collections are being sold and you MIGHT see prices become reasonable again, that would be reaching. Anyway, that my two cents. Grant

Grant, I know there are untouched SS garments, but what I see these days on the internet makes me very suspiscious.