UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Army, Navy, and Luftwaffe Forum Double Etched Luftwaffe Dagger Review

The AD for the double Etched Luft has been removed pending further review as there are questions as to the authenticity of the etching.

I'm still waiting for an explanation for :

"Sorry--but that is NOT a period etch." to be clarified.

Easy to make a statement and walk away, without any explanation.

So how can its authenticity be clarified.

Mark.

There is quite a long thread about these new etches on GDC. They come in Heer versions as well and some even have gold highlights. Some have the Voos TM and some don't. In short the etch is low quality compared to the original and all known originals are nickel plated.

I've posted it in another area and have asked for other opinions on it. If I do not receive any further opinions within three days I will move it back here to the for sale forum.

Houston,

Thanks for coming back to me,

quote:

In short the etch is low quality compared to the original and all known originals are nickel plated.

Please check put T.W's book on army daggers pages 139-141.

Is that a post war etch ???

Mark

My comments are limited to the Voos type-marked and unmarked. Other makers have other characteristics that determine their authenticity. There is no one rule for all. It's just not that simple.

Houston,

It seemed quite simple when you said.

"Sorry--but that is NOT a period etch." and it was booted of the forum as a result.

Do you still stand by that remark...

Now that things are not quite a simple as it initally seemed. ??

Are you also saying now its not a Voos type etch ??

And possibly done by the same company that did the etched Army in T.W's Book ?? Which would make it much rarer and almost unique. ??

Mark

It is a Voos type etch and it is a fake and it is quite well known that these are fakes. My statements were clearly about the Voos etch and no other.

So are you also saying the one in T.W's book on army daggers pages 139-141.

Is also a fake etch blade ??

Houston,

"All known originals are nickel plated" is a bold statement to make.

Can you substantiate that. ?

Perhaps you have a picture of one "New etches", to compare to mine.

I think the whole collecting community would benefit from this knowledge this would make an interesting discussion.

I am of the opinion that the piece, which I recently obtained,
(From the vets grandson... the grandfather is still very much alive, I could ask him where he picked it up, as well as the SS the Army and HJ i also bought).

is not a Voos type etch, but of the outsourced etching variety as pictured and described very well in T.W's book on army daggers.

Customer walks into his military outfitter and says "I'd like the fancy etch pattern army please", Mr outfitter says "No problem sir... Come back next week and we will have one for you..."
Excatly as we can do today....

We all know there are "Non Textbook" pieces out there, question is this one of them, as there defiantly is an Army with the same etch. (well unless that�s a fake as well).

Regards
Mark

Mark--You continue to talk "apples and oranges". The piece in Wittmann's book is an original Eickhorn marked Army dagger not an unmarked Luftwaffe. Now if you could find an Eickhorn etched marked 2nd. Luftwaffe that is identical to your unmarked piece in every way, especially with that turkey looking head, then IMO you would have a case for authenticity for an Eickhorn. IMO, and I'm sure in the opinion of the vast majority of experienced collectors, there are NO original unmarked or marked Voos daggers that have an unplated etch. Without that identical Eickhorn-IMO --no acceptable case for authenticity.
This opinion is besed on over 55 years of experience.
There is a thread or was a thread somewhere here on GDC that shows some of these fakes and it was made in the last year or so. I looked for it but could not locate it--I will continue to look for it. Gustavo posted one with gold on the blade--ask him.

Houston is absolutely correct on this piece. It is a bad etch and not up to the VOOS standards. I am not convinced that any of these non-plated blades are good. All the original pieces that I have found directly from WWII veterans and their family have been plated.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

The point i am trying to get across is this...

I don�t think is a voos etch.. And i dont think it fake due to the source,

Did voos they have some monopoly making the etch for army / luft blades.

The etch on the "Text book" marked army is identical, except the adler. The Leaves.. berries... identical and is completely different
from the voos etch.

But by the logic applied here it must be fake as its not plated.

Are you calling the eickhorn army one a fake. ? Its a simple question. i would like to hear your answer.

Show me proof my luft is wrong ...

I'm not trying to make something right that may be wrong, should i ring the vet tonight and tell him his bring back is now a fake ??.

But just because you haven't seen something.. Is proof they don�t exist. So it must be a fake. ?

Amazing

Now i know why people stop posting here ...... and people wonder why this forum is imploding

This is a very interesting subject that should be studied more in depth.
Was Voos the only maker of these unmarked etched blades ?
If so, yes, the one being showned here is definitively wrong and I do agree entirely with Houston and Ron.
However, if there was other makers of these unmarked etched blades, than it needs further studies and research before being certain that it is fake, just a thought.

Ok guys correct me if im wrong.The voos and voos style doubled etched plates are called that because they all have the floral patten on the reverse and the floral and eagle in the center on the observe.Which this dagger so it is a voss style etch.If Mark would borrow or get a copy of Whittmans Vol 2 Dress Daggers of the Luffwaffee.Whittman states there are three differnt styles of this pattern. The Voss marked and two unmarked examples all are diffent in small ways.But ALL are plated and none of the examples in his book have the turkey head.Could it be an unknown example?Anything is p[ossible but i would thing that between Houston and Ron and Toms 100 and some years experience and looking it would be a real slim chance.

I had a second thought and after closer examination, the etching is so bad that it just can't possibly be original.

These blades just appeared a few years ago-there are quite a lot of them around-some with gold, some with the Voos TM and some without--all the same pattern-Heer and Luft -all unplated AND the quality is LOW even for an unplated blade. They appeared quite often -almost a different one each day on a certain auction site. Many saw them there.
Now the thing is -- that before this we NEVER saw any of this type-unplated- with the sprigs under the wings-- but many other fakes with unplated blades with eagles but without the sprigs--and I am talking 50+ years.
So--for many years the simple rule for authenticity was the presence of sprigs under the wings--we harped on this point for years. So--IMO and the opinion of most is that --the fakers finally got wise and tried to correct this to make their junk more saleable--and they did--and they fooled some early on--but-as usual they made too many, the quality was low, and they were seen quite often. Now--you don't see too many anymore-just like many fakes--they are in closet collections, having fooled those with minimum experience or those who just don't keep up with what is happening in the hobby.
Now you can argue that this is some type of exception but the fact is that this type Voos type blade without nickel plating is not accepted by the vast majority of the collecting community. They don't believe it is original--and in this hobby -that is the kiss of death--you might as well consider it fake--you might fool someone with it--but in all probability -it will come back to haunt you.
So--IMO Mark,-and there is no personal agenda for me in any way regarding this--End of story.

I think this thread is too valuable to lose so if no one has an objection I am going to move it in 24 hours to the Army/Luft/Navy forum so more can view it and we can keep it.

I'll second that !

I can remember about 2-3 yrs ago Houston came out with the info on fake Voos etch's .The general feeling was O my gosh, they finally did it.

Agree, Houston. Do it whenever you want.

Dave

Are there any good photos of the dagger in question?
Thanks, John

With Stirnpanzer's permission I can post the photos on this thread.

Houston,

I'm glad its being moved to the correct forum.

I did put it there initially... For discussion prior to putting in the for sale section and it hardly raised an eyebrow, and was not as interesting as this one.

And i believe a lively debate with differing opionions is a good thing.

As a comment "Fake Etch" educated no one. This is meant to be a learning centre for all, not just a "look a what i've got" forum.

You long post above was far more educational than all the pain that went before.

What is a pity, is that great informational threads keep getting lost after a certain period of time. Perhaps Dave or Vern could extend the forum "Pruning time" ??? It's normally just a setting in the forum software.

I like to approach things with a open mind, until proved either way good or bad or otherwise.

And as you may have noticed i like to stand up ane be counted ,i wish a few more people would.

This was not a personal attack, as i respect your knowledge and opinions.

Even if i dont fully agree all the time

Regards Mark

quote:

Originally posted by NoBoZoS:
With Stirnpanzer's permission I can post the photos on this thread.

No problem...

Mark

It is indeed a monumental loss that we have all suffered the loss of MANY, MANY valuable, educational threads that used to be here on this forum for everyone to see.
There was a thread concerning these blades with lots of pictures but now I can't find it. What we continue to do is answer and address the same subjects and questions over and over again. Many are just tired of it and no longer answer or answer with short statements.
Many seem to think it is an easy fix to stop the loss of information-but we just keep going and nothing seems to happen. It's a real shame.

The following seven photos have been reposted with the permission of their owner.
Photo 1

Photo 2

Photo 3

Photo 4

Photo 5

Photo 6

Photo 7

Thanks NoBozos...

So perhaps as a fresh start:

Does anyony else have an etch the the same as this, or an image they have saved, they would like to share. ?

Mark

Just to add to this topic, Houston you mentioned the early fakes with the so called Drop tailed eagle and no sprigs. I've seen these dismissed out of hand many times and yet Tom Wittman states that although heavily faked it was a period etch.
Also I think it's difficult to make a judgement on the quality of the etch just from photo's.
I thought actually that Mark would have problems with it though purely down to the fact it's not textbook and similar etches are known to be fake.
I thought perhaps the lack of nickle plating might be down to late war economy, they stopped using certain metals later on??.
I have no interest in the piece and defer to greater experience, just a few thought's on it.

Nolan

Eickhorn is known to have produced etched Army and Luft blades that are not plated. I know of NO OTHERS that are accepted as being real.
Also-not all plated ones are real either--and some of these are VERY good -but there are ways to tell. Each must be evaluated according to their characteristics. Some have improper TM's-some have other things wrong. I saw one fake Voos with TM recently that had been buffed to make it look plated.
If you don't know a LOT about these-only buy from trusted sources OR stick with the Voos TEXTBOOK types as shown in Wittmann's Luft/Army books.
These REAL Voos type etched pieces are seldom seen and they are quite rare. Other non Voos ones are extremely !!! rare. MANY in collections are fake.
The downtail buzzard eagle was a period etch and can be seen on period etched bayonets BUT--a REAL Army or Luft one is extra extremely rare and there are MANY fakes-most with unplated blades--but not all.
So--if you are not VERY careful you are going to get it -right in the back end. Many have-- and don't even know it or don't want to believe it.
A closet collector who was showing me his collection said it was dangerous to do that --Why? I asked. He said because you might see something in there that is not real and I don't want to know. OK I said--but I did find fakes in there.
Now here's a tip--if you find one with a real ivory grip-chances are you have a winner. Most fakers won't give up a grip like that to fool people-they don't have to.

Thank goodness for Houston's excellent historical knowledge on all this.
It would be nice if someone would post a side by side comparison. When I see a real one next to a fake one, for me anyway my eyes get fined tuned. Thanks

It would be great if people posted pics of fake etch's from their archives.
It would then create a benchmark of reference to compare to those in T.W.'s Book.

And a also an Eickhorn etch for comparison. If anyone has one.
As Houston has stated they existed...but are rare.
As this etch is greatly different from the classic "Text book" voos type etch.

Mark

Hopefully I'm safe with with my ivory gripped nickle plated (blade and scabbard) trademarked example that came from Steve Tedds who got it off Bernie Brule!

Nolan

Nolan

If you bought from Steve then you should be safe. He has nice daggers and is a very knowledgeable collector.