UBB.threads Forums Uniform & Accessories Medals & Badges of the Third Reich Forum Knights cross brothers

Sorry I have not been around much, been pretty busy at work but my friend aloowed me to borrow these two medals to take some pics and thought I would share them here. The one to the right is the gold class and the one to the left is the silver class. Both were purchased from the vets son about 25 years ago along with several daggers and other medals. Enjoy them and I'll have more pics this weekend.

Fritziii

Fritziii, your presence is felt! Thanks for the great job you do as moderator.
Looking forward to more pics.

--dj--Joe

Joe,
Thanks! It's been pretty hecktic around here and I miss being able to get on like I used to but this winter will allow me to watch and post more. I have taken a few more pics and plan on posting them this weekend. These are two great pieces and I'm glad my friend aloowed me to borrow them. He has a superb collection of knives and medals, his main thing has always been US fighting knives if you look at the one I posted in the US forum.

Fritziii

Saw the prototype, interesting piece.
Please thank your friend for sharing.

--dj--Joe

Here are some closeups of the medals.

Fritziii

#2

Silver

Last one

Here are a couple close ups of the back wreath, first is the gold. Very nice detail.

Fritziii

Here is the silver. Both are maker marked the same, 1 & 900 on the lower cross edge.

Here is something I just noticed, are these cross' from the same dye? Look at the spot between the 9 and 3.

These are from the same die. Deschler has two distinct die types for the RK KVK with swords. The differences in the "3", as you have noticed, is one such difference. The piece noted above is presumably a later, lighter version. Note the flaw on the lower right edge of the 6 oclock arm on the reverse. Also, on the earlier, heavier version there is greater detail in the leaves of the wreath. There are a number of small common flaws that define this later version of the RK KVK, but he "3" and the 6 oclock arm flaw are the biggest ones. Nice piece! THis is a piece not often discussed, as there is a wealth of information there. Also there is the big question as to why they changed the dies?

Tom, It is interesting that you admit that there are different dies. One would have to ask: If there are different dies on a cross that so few of were issued or made, then why would you wonder about Zimmerman making different dies on the DKiG???
Also, I have found several of these RK KVKs from the Schloss Klossheim veterans and have found ONLY 900 1 marked crosses in those lots. I DID find that some were marked 900 1 and others were marked 1 900, so, evidently, they did not always stamp them in the same order in the V of the cross. Interesting.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Hello Ron-

Thanks for the information about the RK KVKs. I think that this is a piece that is not often discussed that we can all learn more about.

Yes, it appears as though there were two dies for this piece and examples of both with provenance. There were other awards in which the dies were changed, an example being juncker pilot badges. However, changes in dies for the wreaths did not appear to occur in other DKiG makers, making a different die for this piece odd. Again, I do not discount that a dotted piece may be wartime, but I find the issues regarding lack of provenance, lack of klein pieces with dots, and different wreath and sunburst troubling. If a piece comes up with solid provenance, I will certainly change my views and fully admit that there is not a definitive answer, unlike the situation with the rounder RK, where solid evidence shows a post war production.

Why did deschler have two dies for the RK KVK? Who knows, as it seems odd for a piece that probably did not have high production levels.

OK,
Lets start something here,after reading the topic on the forum about declining interest lets talk about medals, in particular this one the Gold and silver knights cross of the KVK. What do we really know about this medal(besides what we have all read about), Who designed it? Did any one else besides Deschler produce them even if only for a test sample to the DRGM? What were the real dates of award? And last for now, what do we look for in determing good and bad, and what are the tell tale signs of a Deschler made medal? I feel this is a real under noticed award of the period and not highly sought after by collectors because it's really not a combat award perse but more of a civil award for the war effort. Lets see some other examples so we can compare the pics.

Fritziii

I have to sit back and watch and learn on this. Have neither seen nor held one. Can not afford one and have researched next to nothing on them.

--dj--Joe

Here is one thing I have notice in these cross' is the hardware on the boxes, for the gold cross the clasp is gold colored and the silver is silver colored and even the look is just alittle different. Has anyone else noticed this before?

Fritziii

is there more than one maker of this medal? Or is it just Deschler. Also are there any other gold ones out there? If so lets see them and compare to see if they all came from the same die.

Fritziii

I got a new camera awhile back and took some shots of the marks on both cross' here is the gold one.

Here is the silver

Another question, where do these fit in the big picture as far as medals go, I mean, are these as collectible as the knights cross of the iron cross? I know the gold one here there were only a handfull awarded and the silver there was maybe 120 awarded. From what I have found out as far as value goes the are really not that expensive compared to the knights cross of the EK. Any idea why that is when these are ten times more rare?

Fritziii

As with any TR item, price is determined by supply and demand. These are NOT considered a true combat award and as such are not in as much as demand as a RK, hence the lower price.
Next, I have found 4 times as many unissued as issued. I have found only 1 issued and worn KVK RK with swords and have found 3 unissued KVK RK without swords and 1 KVK RK with Swords unissued. Therefore, from my experience, many were leftover at the end of the war.
The price on these have gone up a lot in the last couple of years, but still no where near the demand of the KC of the Iron Cross.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron,
Whats your toughts on the gold cross, have you found many of these?

No, not that lucky.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Thanks Ron,
I have seen many silver cross' but I've only seen a couple gold ones in over 25 years of collecting, it definitly is a rare bird.

Fritziii

Anyone have any others, Gold or silver? Also if anyone has another one can we see the hardware on the case. I have a theory and would like to see other examples to see if I'm right.

Fritziii

From what I have found out there were at least 2 other mfg of this award, 4 and 20. Can anyone confirm this?

Fritziii

Awards:

Goldenes Ritterkreuz des Kriegsverdienstkreuz 21

Ritterkreuz des Kriegsverdienstkreuzes mit Schwertern 211

Ritterkreuz des Kriegsverdienstkreuzes ohne Schwertern 48


Herman Hoistorica has in the upcoming auction one cased silver RKd.KVK w/o the swords called out for 6000 Euro. For me it is an underpriced award, same like with the Bloodorders. The Knight Cross was awarded over 7000 times and everybody is going nuts with them. but it is the collector choice.

Very nice Crosses you have Fritz, take care for them !

Thanks Robert, I agree these are very undervalued and over looked awards, much more rarer than an knights cross.

Fritziii

Bringing this back up, does anyone have one with a different makers mark?

I have no new information on these medals...but wanted to thank Fritziii for sharing the photos and his knowledge with us. Gems like this posting are why I keep checking in with this forum. Best regards, Duane

Thanks Duane! I'm just woundering what some other cross' look like compare to these two, I know there are a couple other mfg that made these. Anyone have one?

Here is another maker: unmarked, but appears to be real silver at least 800 to 900 fine. No marks anywhere and is an extra for me from an old collection.

Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron,
Very nice cross! Thank you for showing this here. One thing I have noticed is the difference in the ring and ribbon loop between the swords cross and without swords cross.

Fritziii

Playing with my camera last night and took these of my gold cross, does anyone have othe mfg cross' to compare this to to see what if any differences there are? The clarity is much better than my scanner.

here is the back

i owned one marked 935 4 on the lower cross arms. purchased it at a max in pittsburgh several years ago, no ribbon, and the dealer had a kc of the iron cross marked 800, another kc of the iron cross marked 935 4 and several cased examples of ic 1st marked 4. joe pankowski got the kc of the ic and i got the war merit cross marked 935 4. i will try and dig up some photos of it and post here this weekend..

THAT would be an S & L CROSS then

PAUL

Hello,

Every cross posted here is original and the swords versions have all the correct die-flaws to locate.

I have heard of S&L, Zimmerman, and perhaps K&Q produced this rare award.

William Kramer

i owned a 935 4 marked cross. 100% original, came with a 935 4 kc of the iron cross and an 800 marked kc of the iron cross and several marked 4 ic first and war merit cross first class crosses. it was frosty mint but no ribbon. in fact, none of the kcs had ribbons in the haul, but all were mint.