UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum 1st Model RLB-EM dagger ALUMINIUM

Hello collectors,

I`m a new Member from Germany. So my english is not the best...sorry for that.

I have a question:
I own a 1. Model RLB-EM Dagger. The crossguard and pommel are made from aluminium.

But I�m not shure, if that combination is authentic!? Did anyone here really know if 1st Model RLB-EM-Daggers in aluminim are authentic?

Medes.

Looks like some good pieces with a bad crossguard and pommel. I have never heard of an aluminum crossguard and pommel, especially with this grip insignia from the early years. I don't like this one.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Hi,

I think everything is OK with the parts.
Maybe only the grip insignia is changed to
an 1st Model Type...

Medes

The crossguard is bad for sure. Where is the swastika??? Look at the circle under the eagle. You have a funny little design there. It should be a swastika.

Hello,

all parts of the dagger are authentic!
I have used a photo from an thread in a german forum. There it is not allowed to show the swastika!

The question is. : Can it be? 1st Model with aluminium?



Medes

I thought they aused aluminum later when they ran out of the good stuff later in the war, why would an early RLB EM have aluminum. Makes no sense to me. If you but it , you may have alot of fun selling it....

Hello tiep,

i don`know it. Thats why im asking!

i think, that its realy strange. And ist not "Textbook"
But there are not a lot of Specialists for RLB-Daggers.
So nobody realy KNOWS if that can be or not...

Medes

Shouldn't the area around the swastika and between circle be cut out? All I've seen have.

Hi OKCmike,

No, the type of swastika is typical for the EM-Dagger!
I think what you`ve seen was the Officer-RLB-Dagger.

Medes

Oh ok, Reason I asked is I've been eyeballing some, thinking of buying, and you're right, they're all officer's model. Never seen any EM models. Sorry if I was butting in with stupid question and not really helping, but I'm trying to learn all I can also.

Oh ok, reason I asked is I've been eyeballing some, thinking of buying and you're right, they're all officer's model and I haven't seen any EMs. Sorry if I was butting in and not really helping. I'm trying to learn all I can also on these daggers.

No problem!


Medes

In my opinion, this dagger is fine. The maker is Witte-Kroneck and they used silver plated fittings. If you look closely you will see traces of silver plating remaining.

Hello Mr. Burmeister,

you are a Member here? i don`t know that. superb!
What you see on the right side of the eagle are not little traces from an silver plating.
That are traces from a kind of lacquer (to protect the surface?)
The crossguard and pommel is made from Nickel-plated Aluminium ,I know that Witte use this for late Daggers.

But i dont know if that is authentic for an 1st Model from Witte!

What is your opinion? Is that OK?

new picture where you can see the ground-material:


Medes

I have seen many 1st models by this maker with these fittings. In my opinion, as well as Tom Wittmann's, it is silver plate over a light weight material. The lower scabbard fitting will be silver plate over steel. If you have any of Tom's old catalogs, I'm sure you will find numerous examples offered by him fitting this description.

Hello Mr. Burmeister

the surface we now see is nickel over light weight material (Aluminium or something like this) Do you agree with that?

But I realy don`t think that the surface was silverplatet. Because the light yellow colored traces are not a metallic material.
Also the scabbard fitting is nickel plated steel. i can`t see there a prior silver plating.

I�m a young collector- I`m sorry I don`t have old sales cataloges.

Can you post a picture from an 1st Model RLB with the same light weight (Aluminium) fittings?

I would help me so much!
Also I`d like to ask T. Wittmann for his opinion... I send him an e-mail...

If you wont to see a special detail of my dagger I will take a photo!

Hi,

finally here is what Tom Wittman wrote to me.:

"There is nothing wrong with your Ernst Witte-produced RLB em with 1st Model insignia. This dagger is completely authentic. The base metal is a zinc-base, lightweight type. I have had RLB's like this in the past. The Witte company products were usually cheaper made than the Weyersberg, WKC and Gustav Spitzer types. Often, the RLB pieces that exist with no blade marking were from the Ernst Erich Witte firm, as the etching trademark on their blade was so thinly done, it wore off easily. The grip insignia was not changed - this was just how the Witte company made many of their pieces. An early piece does not have to have "heavy" nickel fittings - many of the Ernst Pack and Alcoso Army daggers from the middle 1930's are equipped with inferior lightweight hilt fittings. These companies were simply trying to make more money using cheaper metals and production methods. When the plating was new, they all looked the same! Hope this helps."

I think He`s right! The fitting-ground Material
is made from a zinc/ aluminim alloy.

Medes.

My 1st Model RLB EM is also from Witte. It is also the exact same materials as Medes'. It is nice to know they are original.

Medes. You might recheck your plating. I am certain mine (that remains) is silver plate.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Hmm? Jason AND you say that it is silver plated?

But i can not see that there was a silver plating in past... look at my macro-picture
from the crossguard.. this white-silver plating is Nickel.I`m shure.
Silver is not so "shiny" and if it`s old it
looks dark to black..
And Tom Wittman agree, that these fittings are nickel plated.

But I`m not a Material-Expert!

Jim, please post a ,macro-picture from your crossguard here!

Medes

Hello Medes.

I took a good look at mine and will switch my vote to them being nickel plated.

Here is the photo of my grip and crossguard. There are only traces of the plating. These are the light weight fittings we are discussing.

Jim

Thanks Jim! This is the style that I am acquainted with and DON'T believe this is aluminum, but some type of composit metal more akin to pot metal, but definately not aliminum like the one that started this tread. I still feel that the one pictured originally is NOT this type.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Thank You Jim for the photo.
Maybe these are the same fittings.
It looks like your fittings are Nickel plated
and over it It`s silver plated. ? (the grey traces look like silver or is it the ground material?)
The grey traces on my pictures are the ground-material and the light-yellow ones are from an protect-lacquer....I think so.

@Ronald Weinand.
The Groundmaterial of my Dagger is also not aluminium alone. But I thought that aluminium ist tha basic material.
In fact it`s an grey light weight material. I think an alloy of aluminium and zink. Like some army daggers have. And the dagger also have light ?dissolving? of the grey traces.

Is that the material you know?

Medes

Zinc is about 60% heavier than aluminum, but lighter than nickel silver. And zinc is later than aluminum as a dagger material. As far as composite alloys, some aluminum alloys uses zinc. But aluminum itself was also used as an alloying element. In the United States for example a very common alloy of the day was the �Zamak� series of alloys. Given the comparatively small amounts normally used for alloy purposes, however, I don�t see a lot of impact as far as weight goes.

But weight is not the only factor to be considered. The fact of the matter is that aluminum is a PIA to electroplate and zinc is not. Not impossible, but more complicated, because aluminum had to be zincated first. And then there is the matter of corrosion. From what I think that I�m seeing it looks more like zinc corroding. (Later German alloys used lead as an alloy material with zinc which causes even more corrosion problems).

So ..... at the end of the day: I�m afraid that I will have to go with Ron�s assessment of the material being zinc. FP