UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum Strange youth knife, not German

Anyone know what this is? Thanks T

If real ( I don't know about these) it is Dutch and probably valuable. Do not sell to first offer !

Dave

Dave's right, a Dutch Youth knife. Does it have any numbers on the reverse crossguard? If real, pretty rare.

Yes sir, that's a first pattern Dutch Youth Knife and I'm interested.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

488 on back of x grd

Wow, great knife tiep!! Hard to find! Can you show us some closeups?

Regards
Russell

All the pics you need.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OLD-GERMAN-EIKHORN-YOUTH-KNIFE-DA...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Good One Terry!

Yep, it's original and it's rare!

-serge-

Due to further information I have just received...I WITHDRAW MY COMMENT OF ORIGINALITY. -serge-

Any more info Serge?

Regards
Russell

Yah, what kind of hasty comment is that , I was in touch with that guy first and got all the pictures I needed. Maybe your trying to scare others away as a ploy , sorry to be suspicious but when you make a comment and its not backed up it can go in many directions

Hi Russell,
I have received info from a second party that I don't have authority to release. However from that information I have done my own reseach. I have just concluded it. I have to concur now that IMO this item is well done repro.
There are several items that have proven this item to be a fake. I will list two.

1. The font is close but wrong from known originals.
a. See capital "E" in "Eer".
b. See small "r" in "Eer".
c. See small "r" in "Trouw"

2. Eickhorn logo..close but not "right".

Close up taken of a known original.


tiep: I will not be bidding on it! IT'S ALL YOURS!

-serge-

Here's the motto on the eban "Dutch HJ Knife." -serge

Serge, do you notice both the 'r's in the 'known original' are quite different?

Regards
Russell

Interesting topic. Here's two blade mottoes I've seen previously, both different. This one doesn't have a comma after "Moed".

Second one with the stylized "r" like the one Serge shows.

They all look different to me - particularly the last one - the middle of the 'w' extends quite high. Could they all be originals, different makers perhaps, or only made by Eickhorn?

Regards
Russell

Russell, Yes I do. And from my understanding that is correct on a "original".
However to me the most glaring difference is in the capital "E" center arm. On the "known original" it is triangular. On the ebay example it is in the form of a "T".
Also the Eickhorn logo on the ebay example does not look right to me.



There is also an issue of the "blue" color on the background of the Grip insignia.
I called this item "good". I am of the opinion now for what it's worth that this item is a fake.

To the mottos that Billy just posted I would IMO have to say they are fake also.
To my understanding that Eickhorn was the only producer of these...unless of course some other makers come to light.
I'm no expert on these, but I was told the copies where made in England in the 1970's.

Another photo of the motto "known original"


If anyone else has some more info on these please come forth.

Thanks,

-serge-

Much confusion is being generated over this Dutch Youth Knife. First of all, there are three different issues of this knife, the last one not having the grip insert and no comma after the first word in the motto.
The other issues, by a Dutch manufacturer (these are questionable), exhibit some differences and different serial number ranges.
This knife appears correct to me and, until I can examine it close up or in hand, I can find no faults.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ive spent 25 years looking at fonts in the printing industry and that example looks the same as the dag in question. Differences of such minute difference are due to etching. What i see consistent is a slight angle to the top of the "d" in Moed. It consistently has the top to the right by a degree or two. IMO T

I am clearly with the "non believers" here:

- the Eickhorn marck is obviously not right
- the cross-graining is typical to fake blades
- the scabbard should have the typical "rounded "Eickhorn tip

About the 3 issues of this knife, I also have my doubts: the ones without comma are no good in my opinion and neither are the "De Vriese" marked ones I have seen.

I don't own one, but a good friend of mine does, so I can compare with the real thing.

Best greetings,

Herman

One more thing: if I would be interested in this knife, I would not state this in public on a forum... to raise my own price or what?

Best greetings,

Herman

Billy g that type (ex 1)is different from the stated ebay dag and the black and white example.Herman you should post pictures so all can compare. Im not saying anything either way but I always am just as sceptical when people say its a fake , my freind has one , etc, How do we know you freinds is real. At this point everyone has a fake untill all pictures are compared. T

OK,OK. Here's one that is a "known original" with the 1935-41 squirrel. If you say "How do we know that one is original?" You can take it up with Tom Johnson! It's in his book vol.2. And you can discuss it with Frederick Stephens who is credited with ownership.



This is the best I can do with the image of the motto image example in T.J's book on top. Below is the motto from the ebay knife.





To my eye there is quite a difference in the two mottos "lettering".
The "Frederick" knife is serial # A222, while the ebay knife is serial # A488.

In my opinion, there where two different templates used on these two examples. I also see no reason why Eickhorn would change to a another "style" on the same "series run". However this is common feature on "fake" etches done post-war.
Another feature is the Eickhorn logo. It is plain BAD! If the motto was perfect, there still this item and others in this well done...IMO Fake Dutch Youth Knife.

And for those who think this one is real, then it is indeed a rare piece and one should "bid early and often."

Regards,

-serge-

Serge,

I wish you would repost your pictures one at a time. Those strings of photos hosted on a server look good but will soon be dead.

Dave

Hello Tiep,

You do not need pictures of a real Dutch Youth knife to see the 3 red flags I have stated earlier, just some experience in collecting regular HJ knifes is more than enough.

I wonder who is behind this sale...

Best greetings,

Herman

I guess it would be nice to see a close up comparison of the real and fake, as I dont collect HJ and wont get the book just for that. If they are fake they look good standing alone. EX; SA fakes DO look Fake, HJ Leaders do look fake, but in this case that dag looks nice. Seriously a 1 on 1 comparison would be great. MM, Crossgrain, scab tip etc. Oh well I bid the first $20 and left it there. T

Thanks Dave!
I didn't know that.
Could you please remove the images that I will repost? It won't let me.

-serge-

Feel as you will about this piece. I already own one and don't see any difference between mine and the one that is forsale on the web.
I got mine in 1972, so it is not one of the johnny come latelys and am confident in the origins of my piece.
I am sure that there are differences in Eickhorn templates as they are used over time. We see slight variations, even in Eickhorn TMs and with mottes (just look at the Roehm daggers by Eickhorn and the Eickhorn TMs), so this doesn't make much of an impression on me as to originality. Indeed, if there were different issues of this knife (at least two that we know of and probably three) I am also sure that variation to the form may have taken place in etching details.
Next, both of the examples noted show much wear and use. This, as we see with any piece, can change the edges of the letters and the width of the letters, depending on how they are polished and how photos and light are taken and used.
Lastly, if these were reproduced, where are all the fakes???

I’m afraid that I’m going to have to go with Ron on this one. The markings were not metal stampings one after another, but were individually acid etched one at a time. And the fairly pliable wax masks themselves were destroyed in the process with a new one being used for each blade. And workers could easily make errors from one example to the next.

The red arrow placed on the example from the book on the right side of the “n” shows were this is true.

My point being that while etching is an important factor to look at. It’s not the only one, and I see no clear evidence at this point that the one currently for sale is a fake. FP

I was bidding on this... I will be retracting it...

Decided to do a little research on it. glad i did, I am now more enlightened.

I now have it on good authority that they were being sold here in the UK in the 70's By a Collector / Dealer.

Someone had a chance to compare one in the 70's to an original.
Compared to an original they were very Good.

And now with 30+ years aging........

But there a few differences that give it away. Not just the font issues.


Mark

First a typo correction: “the right side of the “n” shows where this is true.”

I can’t disagree with the fact that there were a Ton of fakes that came out of the UK in the 1970’s. While some things were very good, others were not nearly as convincing, and some were easily detected badly done fakes. I for one would be interested in knowing some of the differences with these knives which could help identify the fakes from any possibly legitimate examples.

As a parallel: Looking into a different Miscellaneous Dagger Forum thread as regards the legitimacy of another highly debated item. It was looking at the item very closely, coupled with very recent research, that now reaches what I consider to be a reasonable standard of proof that those contested blades are in fact fakes.

If there are some really high grade fakes in circulation - it would be helpful I think for both present and future collectors to know the differences on what to buy and what to pass on. FP

Serge,

Just start from scratch. Post your comment again (Cut'n Paste)then the pictures one at a time. When you are finished, I'll kill your original post.

Daev

Motto of Dutch Youth knife. Image taken from T. Johnson's Vol.2 "Reference" 1976.

This is the best I can do with the image. The top one is from T.J's book, the bottom from the ebay knife.



To my eye there is quite a difference between the two mottos "lettering".
The "Frederick" Knife is serial # A222. The ebay knife is serial # A488.

In my opinion, there were two different templates used on these two examples. I also see no reason why Eickhorn would change to another "style" on the same "series run". However this is a common feature on "fake" etches done post-war.
Another feature is the Eickhorn logo. It is plain BAD! If the motto was perfect, there still this item and others in this wee done...IMO Fake Dutch Youth Knife.

And for those who think this one is real, then it is indeed a rare piece and one should "bid early and often".

Regards,

-serge-

Another comparison of the two mottos.

-serge-

Congrats to vintagetimenow! The proud winner with big bucks

OK, OK, I know I'm taking a chance on this, but I've been looking for one for 20 years, and I think there is no way to tell without the knife in hand. Sooo, I recently sold a WWII Randall on eBay I got in a group deal, and basically had nothing in it, hoping to get about $700, and it sold for over $2500. My mind has rationalized that was free money, so I'm gambling it on this. Once I get it, I'll take pictures of it, I may xray for fun as it may reveal how the grips/insignia are attached. What I really need is for those that have the repro Dutch dagger or a real dagger, to post some pictures for comparison. I'm especially interested in the crossguard stamping, as my experience with NPEA's has show that is hard to fake the stampings exactly.

BTW, who was the second place bidder number 9?


At the end of the day, it'll be a fun investigation, and you only live once!

While I'm sure you guys think John has taken a beating here I'll note that: In the days before the "internet collecting craze" many of us collectors bought things because we liked them, many things were a gamble. We lived and learned. And in the long run while it may look foolish now, if it were not for the comments made here the knife in question would have went higher. As a few of you had bid on it also.
Bret Van Sant

Bret,

You are 100% right about collecting what you wanted. The various things I have collected over the years were bought because I liked them. There were not even reference books about most of them to guide me.

Dave

quote:

BTW, who was the second place bidder number 9?

Could have been me!!

John,

I'm looking forward to seeing the fruits of your investigation

John,

Maybe Frederick could help you?

-serge-

I hope, that I can you give more info about the Dutch Youth Dagger (in Dutch: "Stormersmes" or "Nationale Jeugdstormdolk").

An ex-NSB man, who worked in the NSB Dependance, has give the next numbers of produced daggers;
The 1th type, with the letter A: ca. 1200 - 1400 pieces.
The 2nd type, with the letter B: idem, ca. 1200 - 1400 pieces.
The 3rd type, with the letter C: 200 - 400 pieces.
So, I agree with Mr. Weinand about the three types of this dagger.

In my own collection, I have this dagger from the A-type (A541) and a C-type (C266).
For me, It's easy to compare with the other daggers, the E-bay dagger is original. In 1998, Thomas Johnson has seen my C-type at the militaria-show in Gunzenhausen (Germany) and he could tell me that it is original.
The last 13 years that I collect Third Reich daggers, I didn't see a dagger with an number 1000 or higher, but a few weeks ago, I've seen a A-type with a 1300+ number, so, the number of produced daggers could be correct.

The A-type has the correct Eickhorn logo 1935 -1941, my C-type has the 2nd variation of this logo (see Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich, Vol. 3, page 189, fig. K & L)
It's correct, that the C-type has no comma and no grip insert and the letter-type is different.
The dagger of the C-type is a little bit smaller and shorter, you can see that by comparing them.

That this dagger should be have an scabbard with rounded tip (one of the red flags from Herman) is not correct, it's not a HJ Fahrtenmesser...! (You find the rounded tip and the "normal" tip by Eickorn HJ Fahrtenmesser and I think only 10 - 20% has a rounded tip)
I've 2 DJ Fahrtenmesser in my own collection, and the scabbard is exactly the same one, I can put the Dutch Youth Dagger in the DJ scabbard, no problem. I think, they have simply used the DJ-scabbard...!

About the reproductions; in the late 70's/early 80's, about 100 pieces were made by Eickhorn (!!), ordered by a Dutch militaria-dealer. I've tried to find out his name and to find a repro, but at this time, I couldn't find one. I think, the owners think that they have an original.....
I've contact the Eickhorn-firma in Solingen, but the new owner don't know anything about it and they don't have any dagger/parts on stock.

I hope, to find wartime documentation about this dagger with can give the "true story".
Only the makers of the original AND the repro can tell more about them, the makers of the orignals are dead or can't remember, the maker of the reproductions seals his lips....

regards,

Edwin van Veelen
The Netherlands


PS
The originals have grey lines in the ivory-coloured plastic-grips, I heard, the repro's don't have grey lines!

About the value: the E-bay paid 1000 BP is a normal price for this dagger.
The latest price, payed by an Dutch collector who "must" have one, is 3600 dollar for a near mint (type A) dagger!
In Holland the normal value for an near mint is about 1500 euro/2200 dollar.

PS
My daggers a not for sale at this moment...!

Fantastic information Edwin! Do you have any pictures you can post? You could also email them to me and I can resize and post them. Thanks very much, John

I have a couple of comments to make here, as I had received several private e-mails about this Dutch HJ item, so I may as well tell everybody.

The original knives are extremely scarce. I have only ever owned one example, and I have seen and examined about six of them.

I remember seeing the copy examples come onto the market here in the UK in the 1970s. The dealer marketing them had a reputation for offering high-end questionable pieces - and on the occasion I first saw the pieces he had about four of them on his table.

The first feature which struck me was the colouring of the enamel badge in the grip. The blue sky background behind the seagull seemed to be much too light in colour. My example, and the few others that I had seen, had a much darker and richer hue of blue.

The second feature related to the form of font on the etched motto. On these copy items the motto was much crisper, and neater, than on the originals, and the shaping of the serifs appeared to be different. I showed a copy of this to a colleague - who had formerly worked as a type designer for Letraset United Kingdom, and he said that he believed he knew what the type font was, and that he would check up on it for me.

The subsequent information was that he had identified the type font, and that it was German, it was known by name as "Melior", and that it had been registered as a copyright design typeface in - 1953 !

If this is correct, then this legend in this form, cannot possibly be correct on a pre-1945 knife. I already had my doubts about this knife due to the colour of the badge in the grip. This information about the blade etching convinced me.

FJS

Edwin,

Welcome to GDC. If you get the chance, please photograph your knives and post them here. They would add considerably to our knowledge.

Thanks
Dave

Edwin and I are on the same page in this book. Fred, we can discuss this at the MAX Seminar program as you will be on the panel and we can put this topic among others to be discussed.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria
MAX Show Seminar Cooridnator

quote:

Melior

About the colour of the enamel insert, I think, I can give more info too.
I've a big collection of NSB and NSB-related (including Jeugdstorm) medals and pins. When I compare the insert of my A-type dagger, it's the same colored blue as the most NSB-pins. There is one smaller pin existing of the Jeugdstorm (it has the same diameter as the insert) that is clearly lighter blue. It's possible that the maker of the repro-dagger used this pin as example for the insert and therefore used the "wrong" colour blue...

I'll make some pics from both daggers AND the pins, then you can see what I mean.

Strange, that Mr. Stephens talk about an English dealer. I've only heard about a Dutch "bad dealer", who made the repro's and sell them as original with the original price...

I'll contact other longer-collecting people about it and will let you know what they say about it.

regards,

Edwin

Ron W,

Yes, sure we can place this particular item on the back burner for deeper discussion at the MAX. I will look forward to it, and I also look forward to further information about the panel that is going to be formed to participate in the open exchanges. Hopefully we can give the MAX attendees some lively responses.

Regarding this Dutch HJ dagger, I must state that I am personally delighted that we have Mr. van Veelen offering his first-hand knowledge on this subject - and I was very pleased to see his comments about issue of the colour of the sky in the Seagull badge.

As an "outsider" I can only offer limited information about such an item - although every effort was made to confirm all the points and features that were being highlighted. I hope that Mr. van Veelen, with his better, first-hand local knowledge, is able to remove some of the mystique that surrounds these rare daggers.

FJS

The English dealer's name (now deceased) was Barry ........

Today was a sunny day in Holland, here some pictures.

Out of the scabbard. Notice the heavier "body"' of the earlier A-type with insert.

Here some Jeugdstorm (Dutch Youth) pins and plaque.
From L to R (I'll use the Dutch name):
1) Nationale Jeugdstorm pin (NJS pin)
2) Draagteken Nationale Jeugdstorm
3) Eredraagteken NJS (1200 issued, these pins where issued to the Dutch SS too, very rare)
4) Jeugdstorm-plaquette (Issued to the relatives of NSB-man, killed in action and who where member of the NJS too. Extremely rare.
Only the small pin is light blue, the other three darker blue.
Next picture, I compare 1) and 2) with the insert of the dagger.

The small NJS pin and insert.

Here the pin with the darker blue sky. Notice the grey lines in the grip. I heard, the reproductions don't have these lines.

Feel free, to contact me if you have questions, or better, more information!

I've contact some collectors and autors, I'll be back when I get more info about these dagger.

regards,

Edwin van Veelen

Outstanding contribution to a little-know area of collecting. Thanks

Dave

John, your new purchase looks better with each passing post. Edwin has shown in pictures what I was describing earlier in this thread. To those doubters, one picture is worth a thousand words and I only wish I had time to go to the bank and get mine out for photos, but time is short and the SOS is taking more of my time.
The Dutch Youth is by far the more scarce one in the series and maybe the least understood.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Thank You Edwin for your photos and sharing these rare items with us.

To your knowledge, are all original knives have the "lines" in the grip as you have shown?

And would it be possible to see a close-up of the makers mark?

-serge-

Serge, all the originals of these I have examined of the 1st type have had the lines in the grip. It makes the grip look like original ivory and I believe this was the intent.
The B series I would imagine is the same and, at some point in the past, I remember seeing a B series and it was exactly like the type A or the first series.
The C series doesn't have the lines as I can remember. Also, the rivits in the C series are aluminum and the ones in the A series are steel FROM MY EXPERIENCE.
This thread shows the dangers in making comments as to originality without having the piece in hand and not having the experience of handling or owning an original, just one of the dangers in computer findings as opposed to in person examinations and experiences.
Go to the shows and LOOK at every dagger you can to build a base of experience to draw on for your collecting expertise. As they say: Experience is the best teacher, especially in these relics.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ron, It is true that there is no substitute for having a "hands on" inspection with comparison with a known original.
However my experience has shown me that even the "experienced" on occassion make a wrong call on an item.
I may have called this one wrong. But if I did it was not because I didn't examine every H.J. Dutch knife at all the shows. We all know that they are not "out-there" in the open. So, to suggest that I should examine every Dutch knife and "build a base of experience" before I can come to an "opinion" is IMO not realistic and not in the spirit of the forum.
My research had shown an "anomoly" in the motto in the same "A" series run. I posted that "anomoly" to show my reasoning. I also did not particularly like the "Eickhorn" logo.
I look forward to seeing the makers logos on Edwin's examples and to yours when you can dig it out. Also when John recieves his that it exibits the lines in the grip.
It will be interesting and a learning experience for me and I hope others as well.

-serge-

Great thread. The only thing missing is a photo of the fake. Ron you have again clearly shown us what an expert on edged weapons you truly are. Who else would have as much knowledge as the collectors in the Country of origin of these rare pieces?

Houston, your kind words are greatly appreciated. As you well know, youth daggers and edged weapons are my main area of special interest, just as yours is presentation bayonets and hunting/forestry pieces. We can never know everything, but have been able to specialize in some of the lesser known areas of the hobby that appeal to us.
The really good thing is that we all can pool our knowlege here and help others. That is the goal of this web site and, I hope, the mutual interest of us all.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

First, thanks to all for the friendly comments!

Serge,
All the NJS daggers that I've see, incl. both in my own collection, have the grey lines.
Here the close up from the makers logo.

About the font of both daggers: I'm working on it, I hope to find more info about that type of letter.

Mr. Weinand, compliments for your good memory...! My c-type have alu rivits, the A-type steel rivits.
Only one diference: my c-type has the grey lines too. (I think, it was in the 70/80's technical not possible or to expensive to make the same grip with lines for the repro... we can be happy about that!)

About the weight of the daggers:
A-type:
Dagger 147 grams, scabbard 58 gr. = total weight 205 grams.
C-type:
Dagger 121 grams, scabbard 44 gr. = total weight 165 grams.

Principle, it's the "same story" as the HJ Fahrtenmesser: iron hilt at the early daggers, non-magnetic (I think "Zinkspritzguss") at the later produced daggers.

Detail-pics of the A- and C- serienumbers will follow asap.

I've pictures from the "funny" repro from deVries-Arnhem, they will follow.

Regards,

Edwin van Veelen

Here the motto and maker from the 1th type/A-serie.

The motto and maker of the C-type.

Here the reproduction "funny NJS dagger" marked deVries-Arnhem. These picture comes from Internet, it was presented as an original...!

The blue HJ-insert is made by an Dutch dealer (another one, sorry!) and they use it to make an Marine-HJ Fahrtenmesser (Navy HJ)... the marine-HJ used the standard HJ Fahrtenmesser!
They told me, there is an yellow one existing, maybe for an Afrikakorps HJ Fahrtenmesser...:-)

reproduction Dutch Youth "deVries-Arnhem":

reproduction Dutch Youth dagger, reverse:

reproduction Dutch Youth with the blue HJ-insert

There's a new on on eBay now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110225680345

Enamel looks damaged. Pictures are very poor!

.

Seller description:
20 cm.(8 inch) with 11 cm.(4.125 inch) blade.

In the general style of a WWII period German youth knife, made by Eikhorn of Solingen, numbered A 317 and etched with the motto 'Moed, Eer en Trouw'.

The crossguard and pommell are steel, the grips are ivorine, inset with enameled insignia of a seabird flying over waves. The scabbard is steel with leather hanger.

John, do you have yours yet?

I was hoping today, but nothing. Tracking is useless, it says this for the last 5 days:

Status: Origin Post is Preparing Shipment

We have received notice that the originating post is preparing to dispatch this mail piece.

theres on on ebay rite now for $600 and have seen these go as high as $1600 on ebay

Finally got it, and in hand, I must say it's very impressive and I have no doubt it's real. I will bring it to the SOS show. It fills a void in my HJ collection.

The weight is much heavier than the alum DJ knives. I'll weigh it on a digital scale soon.

stamping

emblem

mm

motto

.

..

Size compared to standard HJ

Finally, I xrayed it. It appears the emblem is fit into the grip, but no prongs. There does appear to be some open space beneath the emblem.

the badge of the “Jeugdstorm” in two forms

Congratulations John. Very impressive HJ collection. Will look good next to all those NPEA's.

Thanks for those detailed pics. Great looking ensemble you have there!

Thanks Christopher for the Jeugdstorm pin pictures, very nice. Let me know if you have any extras to sell, I'd like to have one to go with the knife. I looked for one at the SOS, but no luck. Edwin, maybe you could find me a pin to buy?

OK, Ron brought his knife to the SOS, and in person, there is no doubt these are twins made by the same company. Here's 2 pictures, the best I could do with no tripod or light tent.

rev

John, Thanks for showing it to me at the SOS.

It is wonderful piece exibiting all the qualities one would expect once you see it in hand.

Nice score. Congrats!

-serge-

That was a good free randal knife huh!
Bret Van Sant

Is it then acceptable for the grip inset not to have the pronged attachment as on HJ knives or do we not know at this time? Charlie