UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons Miscellaneous Dagger Forum Strange youth knife, not German

Anyone know what this is? Thanks T

If real ( I don't know about these) it is Dutch and probably valuable. Do not sell to first offer !

Dave

Dave's right, a Dutch Youth knife. Does it have any numbers on the reverse crossguard? If real, pretty rare.

Yes sir, that's a first pattern Dutch Youth Knife and I'm interested.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

488 on back of x grd

Wow, great knife tiep!! Hard to find! Can you show us some closeups?

Regards
Russell

All the pics you need.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OLD-GERMAN-EIKHORN-YOUTH-KNIFE-DA...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Good One Terry!

Yep, it's original and it's rare!

-serge-

Due to further information I have just received...I WITHDRAW MY COMMENT OF ORIGINALITY. -serge-

Any more info Serge?

Regards
Russell

Yah, what kind of hasty comment is that , I was in touch with that guy first and got all the pictures I needed. Maybe your trying to scare others away as a ploy , sorry to be suspicious but when you make a comment and its not backed up it can go in many directions

Hi Russell,
I have received info from a second party that I don't have authority to release. However from that information I have done my own reseach. I have just concluded it. I have to concur now that IMO this item is well done repro.
There are several items that have proven this item to be a fake. I will list two.

1. The font is close but wrong from known originals.
a. See capital "E" in "Eer".
b. See small "r" in "Eer".
c. See small "r" in "Trouw"

2. Eickhorn logo..close but not "right".

Close up taken of a known original.


tiep: I will not be bidding on it! IT'S ALL YOURS!

-serge-

Here's the motto on the eban "Dutch HJ Knife." -serge

Serge, do you notice both the 'r's in the 'known original' are quite different?

Regards
Russell

Interesting topic. Here's two blade mottoes I've seen previously, both different. This one doesn't have a comma after "Moed".

Second one with the stylized "r" like the one Serge shows.

They all look different to me - particularly the last one - the middle of the 'w' extends quite high. Could they all be originals, different makers perhaps, or only made by Eickhorn?

Regards
Russell

Russell, Yes I do. And from my understanding that is correct on a "original".
However to me the most glaring difference is in the capital "E" center arm. On the "known original" it is triangular. On the ebay example it is in the form of a "T".
Also the Eickhorn logo on the ebay example does not look right to me.



There is also an issue of the "blue" color on the background of the Grip insignia.
I called this item "good". I am of the opinion now for what it's worth that this item is a fake.

To the mottos that Billy just posted I would IMO have to say they are fake also.
To my understanding that Eickhorn was the only producer of these...unless of course some other makers come to light.
I'm no expert on these, but I was told the copies where made in England in the 1970's.

Another photo of the motto "known original"


If anyone else has some more info on these please come forth.

Thanks,

-serge-

Much confusion is being generated over this Dutch Youth Knife. First of all, there are three different issues of this knife, the last one not having the grip insert and no comma after the first word in the motto.
The other issues, by a Dutch manufacturer (these are questionable), exhibit some differences and different serial number ranges.
This knife appears correct to me and, until I can examine it close up or in hand, I can find no faults.
JMO,
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

Ive spent 25 years looking at fonts in the printing industry and that example looks the same as the dag in question. Differences of such minute difference are due to etching. What i see consistent is a slight angle to the top of the "d" in Moed. It consistently has the top to the right by a degree or two. IMO T

I am clearly with the "non believers" here:

- the Eickhorn marck is obviously not right
- the cross-graining is typical to fake blades
- the scabbard should have the typical "rounded "Eickhorn tip

About the 3 issues of this knife, I also have my doubts: the ones without comma are no good in my opinion and neither are the "De Vriese" marked ones I have seen.

I don't own one, but a good friend of mine does, so I can compare with the real thing.

Best greetings,

Herman

One more thing: if I would be interested in this knife, I would not state this in public on a forum... to raise my own price or what?

Best greetings,

Herman

Billy g that type (ex 1)is different from the stated ebay dag and the black and white example.Herman you should post pictures so all can compare. Im not saying anything either way but I always am just as sceptical when people say its a fake , my freind has one , etc, How do we know you freinds is real. At this point everyone has a fake untill all pictures are compared. T

OK,OK. Here's one that is a "known original" with the 1935-41 squirrel. If you say "How do we know that one is original?" You can take it up with Tom Johnson! It's in his book vol.2. And you can discuss it with Frederick Stephens who is credited with ownership.



This is the best I can do with the image of the motto image example in T.J's book on top. Below is the motto from the ebay knife.





To my eye there is quite a difference in the two mottos "lettering".
The "Frederick" knife is serial # A222, while the ebay knife is serial # A488.

In my opinion, there where two different templates used on these two examples. I also see no reason why Eickhorn would change to a another "style" on the same "series run". However this is common feature on "fake" etches done post-war.
Another feature is the Eickhorn logo. It is plain BAD! If the motto was perfect, there still this item and others in this well done...IMO Fake Dutch Youth Knife.

And for those who think this one is real, then it is indeed a rare piece and one should "bid early and often."

Regards,

-serge-

Serge,

I wish you would repost your pictures one at a time. Those strings of photos hosted on a server look good but will soon be dead.

Dave

Hello Tiep,

You do not need pictures of a real Dutch Youth knife to see the 3 red flags I have stated earlier, just some experience in collecting regular HJ knifes is more than enough.

I wonder who is behind this sale...

Best greetings,

Herman

I guess it would be nice to see a close up comparison of the real and fake, as I dont collect HJ and wont get the book just for that. If they are fake they look good standing alone. EX; SA fakes DO look Fake, HJ Leaders do look fake, but in this case that dag looks nice. Seriously a 1 on 1 comparison would be great. MM, Crossgrain, scab tip etc. Oh well I bid the first $20 and left it there. T

Thanks Dave!
I didn't know that.
Could you please remove the images that I will repost? It won't let me.

-serge-

Feel as you will about this piece. I already own one and don't see any difference between mine and the one that is forsale on the web.
I got mine in 1972, so it is not one of the johnny come latelys and am confident in the origins of my piece.
I am sure that there are differences in Eickhorn templates as they are used over time. We see slight variations, even in Eickhorn TMs and with mottes (just look at the Roehm daggers by Eickhorn and the Eickhorn TMs), so this doesn't make much of an impression on me as to originality. Indeed, if there were different issues of this knife (at least two that we know of and probably three) I am also sure that variation to the form may have taken place in etching details.
Next, both of the examples noted show much wear and use. This, as we see with any piece, can change the edges of the letters and the width of the letters, depending on how they are polished and how photos and light are taken and used.
Lastly, if these were reproduced, where are all the fakes???

I�m afraid that I�m going to have to go with Ron on this one. The markings were not metal stampings one after another, but were individually acid etched one at a time. And the fairly pliable wax masks themselves were destroyed in the process with a new one being used for each blade. And workers could easily make errors from one example to the next.

The red arrow placed on the example from the book on the right side of the �n� shows were this is true.

My point being that while etching is an important factor to look at. It�s not the only one, and I see no clear evidence at this point that the one currently for sale is a fake. FP

I was bidding on this... I will be retracting it...

Decided to do a little research on it. glad i did, I am now more enlightened.

I now have it on good authority that they were being sold here in the UK in the 70's By a Collector / Dealer.

Someone had a chance to compare one in the 70's to an original.
Compared to an original they were very Good.

And now with 30+ years aging........

But there a few differences that give it away. Not just the font issues.


Mark

First a typo correction: �the right side of the �n� shows where this is true.�

I can�t disagree with the fact that there were a Ton of fakes that came out of the UK in the 1970�s. While some things were very good, others were not nearly as convincing, and some were easily detected badly done fakes. I for one would be interested in knowing some of the differences with these knives which could help identify the fakes from any possibly legitimate examples.

As a parallel: Looking into a different Miscellaneous Dagger Forum thread as regards the legitimacy of another highly debated item. It was looking at the item very closely, coupled with very recent research, that now reaches what I consider to be a reasonable standard of proof that those contested blades are in fact fakes.

If there are some really high grade fakes in circulation - it would be helpful I think for both present and future collectors to know the differences on what to buy and what to pass on. FP

Serge,

Just start from scratch. Post your comment again (Cut'n Paste)then the pictures one at a time. When you are finished, I'll kill your original post.

Daev

Motto of Dutch Youth knife. Image taken from T. Johnson's Vol.2 "Reference" 1976.

This is the best I can do with the image. The top one is from T.J's book, the bottom from the ebay knife.



To my eye there is quite a difference between the two mottos "lettering".
The "Frederick" Knife is serial # A222. The ebay knife is serial # A488.

In my opinion, there were two different templates used on these two examples. I also see no reason why Eickhorn would change to another "style" on the same "series run". However this is a common feature on "fake" etches done post-war.
Another feature is the Eickhorn logo. It is plain BAD! If the motto was perfect, there still this item and others in this wee done...IMO Fake Dutch Youth Knife.

And for those who think this one is real, then it is indeed a rare piece and one should "bid early and often".

Regards,

-serge-

Another comparison of the two mottos.

-serge-

Congrats to vintagetimenow! The proud winner with big bucks

OK, OK, I know I'm taking a chance on this, but I've been looking for one for 20 years, and I think there is no way to tell without the knife in hand. Sooo, I recently sold a WWII Randall on eBay I got in a group deal, and basically had nothing in it, hoping to get about $700, and it sold for over $2500. My mind has rationalized that was free money, so I'm gambling it on this. Once I get it, I'll take pictures of it, I may xray for fun as it may reveal how the grips/insignia are attached. What I really need is for those that have the repro Dutch dagger or a real dagger, to post some pictures for comparison. I'm especially interested in the crossguard stamping, as my experience with NPEA's has show that is hard to fake the stampings exactly.

BTW, who was the second place bidder number 9?


At the end of the day, it'll be a fun investigation, and you only live once!

While I'm sure you guys think John has taken a beating here I'll note that: In the days before the "internet collecting craze" many of us collectors bought things because we liked them, many things were a gamble. We lived and learned. And in the long run while it may look foolish now, if it were not for the comments made here the knife in question would have went higher. As a few of you had bid on it also.
Bret Van Sant

Bret,

You are 100% right about collecting what you wanted. The various things I have collected over the years were bought because I liked them. There were not even reference books about most of them to guide me.

Dave