UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum ADOLF HUHNLEIN NSKK HIGH LEADER HONOUR DAGGERS

There's also another element that seems to differenciates the RZM-Asmann marked versus an "unmarked RZM" chain.
I don't know how to call it, but the "clip" seem to be much thinner on a non-RZM chain.

Unmarked on the left. Assman on the right.

Pat,

I don't think your 'thin' theory can be applied to tell the difference. I think this pertains to short early (so called snub nose clips) and late ones which are longer. I think this is a time difference as opposed to maker difference.

In these pics, the unmarked clip is an early one (snub nose) and the Assman is a later clip.

However, you will notice that the acorn in the middle of the oakleaves touches the oakleaves on the unmarked clip but does not touch on the Assman clip.

Bernie, you are quite correct about the clip and thanks for your input.
Very logical explanation.
Based on that picture, we can certainly appreciate the differences on the unmarked oak leaf pattern versus the RZM-marked oak leaf pattern, which seems to be always consistent.

The connector links are also different on picture A and picture B. The ones in picture A are wider than those on picture B. A seam is also apparent on the links on pic B.

Also, the bigger connecting links are well finished and have no visable opening and are closed.
When you compare numbers, the unmarked chains are much better and earlier.
Chained NSKK Daggers are much harder to find than SS Chained Daggers.
Ron Weinand
Weinand Militaria

I find the NSKK Chained dagger, one of the most beautiful dagger on the market and extremely undervalued, when considering, as stated by Ron, that they are much more rarer than a Chained SS.

I also agree with Ron that all of the unmarked chained NSKK are of better quality.
On most of the unmarked chains that I've seen, the plating was still very solid, shiny and little rust was evident on them. As for the Assman, most were having rust problems and major plating loss on their chains.
The unmarked chains were definitively better made, which would suggest that perhaps they were "earlier".
When you put both types side by side, the difference in quality is very noticeable.

Great detective work and Pat I concur with your findings. This kind of work makes this forum a treasure trove of information.

Thanks Paul !

I was just very lucky but it makes the hobby so much more interesting and stimulating.

I agree with Pat , the NSKK-chained is undervalued-compared with the SS-chained .May be the SS is a "black-dagger"

Good work Pat!

I had a great textbook one from Craig
but nobody wants to pay for them!

Sold at SOS!

Shame as they are nice and undervalued!

But not SS!


PVON

The Chained NSKK is very much undervalued but things could change with Wittmann's new book on the subject.

Sorry about the delay, Here are the pics of the back side of the chain. Thanks Grant.

another.

another shot.

Another back shot.

Here is a group shot of all of our Honor Daggers. Enjoy.

Holy smokes!

Mark

Mark, I second that..........."Holy smokes".

Grant: Your chain is like my chain on the reverse. Also, if you need a FHH, Grant, I have two

Now, Grant, that�s what I call type collecting! Congratulation on an outstanding collection.

Hello Grant,

Thank you for your time and effort in making your latest photographs available to the GD community. I will be digesting them at leisure.

With best regards and thanks.

Frederick J. Stephens

Back on Top..................very interesting thread that was written 3 years ago and that should be preserve.

Marked or unmarked ?

Pat, great work here. It makes me wonder how many chained NSKKs have been relagated to the "fake" pile that may have been real???
Ron Weinand

Thanks Ron !
Randal, without a doubt, unmarked RZM Chained.

you guys are right! A great topic even for us non dagger collecting guys ...

BUT, its a 05 topic and will soon be in danger of disappearing! Copy it your selves,,or contact the Moderator and get him to start a new topic and move this one into it...

Here is the back of the same chain.

Good move Pat ,thanks

Randal, just like I thought, it ain't an Assman RZM marked chain, however, the unmarked chained could very well be this specific RZM marked that you are showing us.
Among more than 30 ++ NSKK Chained dagger that I have seen, it is the first one that I see with a marked chained box.
The connectors, the chain clip and chained box are definitily from the unmarked RZM NSKK vintage.
This maker marked is unique and the first one ever accountered.

Can anyone tell me who is this specific maker marked ?

M3/23 is "Wurttembergische Metallwarenfabrik, Geislingen, Wurttemberg" who were makers of party emblems according to Fisher.

Hello,

the german dealer Helmut Weitze is selling one of these daggers https://www.weitze.net/cgi-bin/cat-art-index.pl?art_no=...ik=34_7&lang=e&kat=1

The price is 45.000 euros.

Greetings, Ren�

Pat, This chain is connected to a rzm marked NSKK Marine dagger, M7/66 1939.

Randal.

Randal, thanks for the new info, I have never seen or accountered a Marine NSKK M36.
Perhaps, they have their own unique configuration ? I just don't know.
I'm merely talking about the "regular" Chained NSKK M36.

I have seen a few M36 NSKK Marine's. Some were real and some were not. Of the real ones, most were M5/8 marked. One had no markings. This is the first one with the M3/23 marking that I've seen. I do not think there is any difference in the regs between standard M36s and marine M36s other than finish. Which was done to complement the dark blue uniform.
Randal.

Just out of curiousity, is there any photographic evidence of a Chained Marine NSKK in wear ?

I'm also under the impression that all unmarked Chained could've been manufactured by "Wurttembergische M3/23".
This is the first actual evidence that we have that Wurttembergische could be the "unknown" manufacturer of those unmarked M36 NSKK.

I'm with you Pat. The difference in the stamping of the assman marked chains and the umarked chains is considerable, so much that they could not be the same maker. I've always felt that unmarked examples were field upgrades, the fitting of the center ramp sometime shows this. When I found this mark on this example, I compared it to quite a few unmarked NSKK chains. They match.
I think M3/23 is the unknown maker also, and have ever since finding this marking on one of my daggers several years ago. Randal.

We know that M7 was for dagger manufacturers and that M1 was for Day Badges and pins. M5 was for attaching rings and M4 was for Belt Buckles. So what was M3 for and why would Assmann use M5 (correct for attachments) and not the M3 company???
Ron Weinand

Good point Ron, I hadn't thought of the M3 and to be quite honest with you, I have no clear answer.

The RZM Codex states
M1-Insignia M9-Meeting Badges
M2-Subcontractors M10-Musical Insturments
M3-Symbols or Emblems M11-NSDAP ser.medals
M4-Belt Buckles M12 Min. ser. medals
M5-Uniform Accessiories
M6-Aluminum Products
M7-Daggers
M8-Metal Accessories
I do not know how accurate the codex is, but most rzm products that are marked tend to reflect this list.
Randal.

This is not a complaint as I oftentimes have problems with closeups myself. But I like to get really, really close to look at the small details of any stamped (or cast) item to see if I can pick up any clues as to exactly how something was made. That said, I did not see anything particularly amiss with what was posted, and while the alternate RZM marked example is unusual. Uncommon or newly discovered items are found even at this late date.

I was wondering about the use of the M3 myself, as it is normally associated with things like NS motif items that go on the end of flag poles. A fairly large company, Wurttembergische Metallwarenfabrik prior to the war was engaged in making dinnerware, cutlery, and similar items from metal. During the war it made small arms and ammunition components.

Besides the M5 items, Assmann had separate licenses for insignia and badges, belt buckles, meeting badges, and long service medals.

I�m just thinking out loud, but if I had to make a guess using the information at hand: It would be that the Wurttembergische Metallwarenfabrik was given a �one shot deal� to make the chain links. And did not bother to go through through the process of getting an M5 license, instead giving the RZM it�s percentage using its M3 license. The links got made. The RZM got its money. And everybody went home happy. FP