UBB.threads Forums Edged Weapons SA & NSKK Dagger Forum ADOLF HUHNLEIN NSKK HIGH LEADER HONOUR DAGGERS

Fellow German Dagger Collectors!

I am currently engaged in specific research concerning the NSKK High Leader Honour Daggers - those with the Adolf H�hnlein signature etched into the damascus blade, and bearing the unusual chain hanger which has an open frame plate at the conflusion of the cartouche. Images (from the late Julian Milestone collection) showing this configuration are attached to this message - photos taken 1970s by this enquirer.

Question 1: Does anybody know of the current location of this Julian Milestone piece? Has it been "restored" and moved on?

Question 2: What other examples of this dagger and chain hanger - specifically the distinctive chain hanger with open-frame - are known to exist. If YOU have one, then please contact me.

Finally, I am looking for good photos of NSKK Oberguppenf�hrer K. Offermann wearing such a dagger, and indeed photos of any other senior NSKK Officers wearing Honour Daggers.

I hope the collecting community can help me with this - please feel free to contact me via GD.com on this thread; or alternatively contact me directly at: [email protected]

All replies will be acknowledged and answered.

Thank you

Frederick J. Stephens
PS I will add the attachmwent, as the current message exceeds the available space.

Frederick,

Welcome again to our Forum. We are greatly pleased to have you here. If you will email me the images:

[email protected]

I will do whatever is necessary to post them for you.

We wish you all the best in completing an update to your fantastic book "Reproduction? Recognition! Feel free to post your questions here as I think most of our Members will help you when they can.

Regards,
Dave Hohaus
Administrator

Take a look at Tom Johnson's new book-there's a great one in there and a great "wearing" photo.

Frederick :

Check with Bill Shea @ the Ruptured Duck. He had one at the Union, NJ USA show last march. Condition was not the best and price if I remember correctly was around 40K.

Good Luck.

I am still trying to get photo attachment up on view, sorry to keep you waiting - I may have to send it via Dave Hohaus.

Also my thanks to George1, and Houston Coates, for their feedback. Greatly appreciated.
FJS

Mr. Stephans, Here is Dave Bias's NSKK high leaders dagger w/ silver nickel fittings.enjoy.

close-up of the chain.

close-up of the grip.

the blade.

back side.

Eickhorn logo.

Grant: Very nice looking piece. Where did yours come from?

Dear Grant,

Thank you for making the photographs of the Dave Bias H�hnlein Honour Dagger available. It all adds to our accumulating information - and I am pleased to learn of the existence of this example.

If I may ask you - could you please photograph the reverse of the chains, and show details of any marking that might be visible. Your collaboration in this matter is most greatly appreciated. Many thanks.

Frederick J. Stephens

Greig,
I purchased this Huhnlein from Brian Maderer
several years ago
Dave Bias

Fred,
It's my understanding by talking to a couple
of the well known dealers , they only know of
seven (7) of these daggers thaty exist in collec
tions anywhere! (5) with the (800) marked chain
and (2) with the silver nickel chain. Your research may uncover alot more information about this dagger. Dave Bias

I have one with the nickel chain.

And it is indeed a pleasure to hear Houston speak of the "photo in wear" in the Johnson book. FYI Fred: I have not spoken to Houston about this, so he arrived at this observation independently. Houston: I had actually made this discovery, and had spoken to Tom about it. He made the original photo available to me to reproduce, as the originally published photo was very small and hard to see. The original photo (as is the case in his new book) is not labeled correctly - he states that it's the NSKK Chained Dagger in wear, but did acknowledge that his caption was incorrect.

Well, that's what I call a "REAL" blade.
Never seen such a wonderful specimen and this would be the highlight of any advanced collector.
Thanks for sharing those pics with us.
Congratulation on a very rare and unique specimen.
Enjoy it !

Speechless for sure!

Thanks for sharing this outstanding
dagger!

A pleasure to see!

PVON

Gentlemen,

My specific thanks to Grant Bias, and David Bias, for sharing their H�hnlein NSKK Honour Dagger with us.

Of the "seven" known examples I would like to state that I think that there are at least 8 "eight" examples - one being a version with a blemish on the etch of the H�hnlein signature - and with the nickle style regular chains (not the .800 silver version). I saw this example some years ago, but unfortunately was unable to photograph it in the time available.

This is an intriguing pattern of dagger, and I would urge all fellow enthusiasts to let the GD community know of any examples that they know of, or any photos of such examples in wear.

I would also request of Mr. Bias could you please let us see photos of the reverse of the chains on your dagger - and possibly any details of the markings that may appear upon them.

Many thanks for your cooperation.

Frederick J. Stephens

I would really like to see the reverse side of this chain. Will take a guess on what we'll be seeing on the reverse side. Based on "specific" and unique characteristics of this chain, it should be lacking the commonly seen RZM Assman code. Which would be proper and 100% original for this type of chain.
I'm just trying to prove a small theory of mine. However, if there's an Assmann RZM code on the reverse side........then my theory is down the tube and will feel like a real donkey butt.

Pat: Mine is void of any Assmann or RZM markings, so with respect to mine, you're right. The silver version contains only markings to the reverse of the center clip - a crown, crescent, and 800, along with what appears to be "Gahr Munchen" for the Otto Gahr company.

It only proves without any doubts that the chain was not made by Assmann.
Everybody thinks that those unmarked Assman RZM chained were for field upgrades ONLY and that this is why they have no RZM code. WRONG !
The textbook theory on these is that every Eickhorn chained NSKK should have the RZM Assman maker marked, which isn't obviously the case with many field upgrades, Marine NSKK 36 and Honor Chained NSKK.
WHY ? Simply because the unmarked chains were NOT PRODUCED by Assman but by another unknown manufacturer which did not marked thers chains.<
How can I prove what I'm saying ?
Just compare any chained Assman with an unmarked RZM and you will see that they are completely different. The right side oak leaf design, on the chain hanger, will be more curved on an unmarked RZM Assman. They are so different, compare.
The rings attached to the chain hanger are also much thicker than on a marked RZM and the 2 large "loops", where both chains are attached to the chain hanger, are also much thicker in size than on an Assmann chain.
Everybody's been asking the same question as to why some chained NSKK were unmarked RZM.
Many theories were invented : 1- for field upgrade 2- bought through a non-official channel of distribution ( Wittmann theory ) 3- Eickhorn forgot to put an RZM chain box link etc.
It proves without any doubts that Eickhorn were using 2 different manufacturers for their chained NSKK. One by Assman and one unknown non-Rzm marked. Many badges are unmarked and it is the same thing with the chain.

If anyone could post a side by side comparaison of both chained, that would be real nice. I only have the unmarked RZM chain but not the Assman.

I can post photos for you tomorrow, Pat. Remember also, Pat, that chain markings on NSKKs (forgetting about the High Leader examples for the moment) are not regular and consistant. While there is a textbook configuration that we all love to see, I have owned and seen original chains with two NSKK markings, two Assmann markings, only one of either marking, and no markings at all. Leads me to believe that the chain assemblers weren't very careful. And also, it is actually a common belief among many that there were either two dies, or two manufacturers, of the chain. I'll ask a couple of associates what they think and get back to you.

Thanks Craig, that would be nice if you could post an RZM Assman chained NSKK beside the one I have doown below ( see the pics ).
The unmarked NSKK Chained daggers all have the same 4 identical characteristics which are explained in the following thread.

1- Like previously explained, the right oak leaf tends to curve more to the right as compared to an Assman clip, which tends to rather go straight in line.

2- The loops attached to the chain hanger, are different than on an Assman chain.
They are thicker and flatter.

3- The chain connectors are also very different, being always bigger and wider.

4- And lastly, the silver plating on an unmarked chain is also far superior in quality, than on an Assmann marked chain.

I've looked at approximately 25 + Chained NSKK daggers in the last 3 years ( at the Max, SOS and on this Forum ), both marked and unmarked Assman, and they ALWAYS had the same attributes on the oak leaf chain hanger, loop, connector and plating.
Not once, have I seen a right side curved oak leaf on an Assmann marked chain.
Everytime, this specific characteristic was consistent with an unmarked chain, which tends to emphasis the theory that there were 2 different NSKK chains being produced for the Eickhorn firm. A marked Assman RZM and an unknown unmarked chain.
Voila !

That is a great assessment,Pat, for sure. Thank you. JR

For further confirmation Pat, have a look at display case -page 10 of my site for pics of the unmarked chain on the NSKK I acquired from Craig

Paul

Thanks JR !
Indeed Paul, your chained NSKK also has the same specific attributes than ALL of the unmarked chain. It shows that you have an original unmarked chain being produced by the "unknown" manufacturer and not by Assmann.
Perhaps, if we have enought evidence on this type of chain, we could call them the "textbook unmarked" chained NSKK.
In order for it to be "textbook", it would require that all of the unmarked chains NSKK have the same attributes..............which seems to be the case on all of those chained NSKK that I have seen so far.
BTW, I never saw your web page before and you certainly have a wonderful collection.
Especially the DAMASCUS RLB dagger, it is a beauty and probably unique.
Way to go !

I would really like to get some more feedback on those collectors, that have an unmarked chained NSKK.
Would like to know if you all have the same consistent attributes, especially the "curved oak leaf" to the right of the clip.
Thanks !
Here's one that I've just saw on Gambino web page. A classic "textbook" unmarked chained NSKK with the curved oak leaf to the right.
http://www.sterlinggambino.com/Militaria_Detail2.cfm?ID=934
One more evidence.

What I find to be most interesting about these daggers is that the Honor types have both snaps and rectangle type upper chain fittings. On some-it would seem that the rectangle fitting was changed to a snap.

Thank you Pat-it is a remarkable piece, incidently it is pictured extensively in Tom Johnsons new reference set.

Paul

Houston,

For what reason do you think that the snap-clip was added to the flat, open frame cartouche, when it would appear that it was designed to be suspended from a snap-clip hanging from the belt?

Also, could you please tell me what examples you know of that have had a snap-clip added to the open frame - and are these modified pieces still available to be seen?

Many thanks
FJS

Pat,here is mine. This a "field upgrade" i.e. three upper links, added to an Ed. Wusthof dagger. It is unmarked other than the "Musterschutz" on the top link of the long chain. Hope this helps! teufel
P.S. GOOD EYE!

Thanks, you have another "textbook" non-RZM marked chained NSKK.
Once again, notice the curved oak leaf to the right hand side.
Something you will never find on an Assman marked chain.
I'm not much of a computer wizard but would really appreciate if someone could post a pic of a side-by-side comparaison, of the 2 types of clip hanger.

Fred-On some-it looks like the square fitting was removed and a snap added. Perhaps some type of upgrade to match the model 1936 chain-or? Perhaps an old order will surface regarding this although that would be a lot to hope for.

Here's a comparative picture of both types of chained NSKK. As you can see, both types are completely different from one another. The so called "texbook" is on the left hand side, being the RZM-Assman marked, and the one on the right hand side, is my so called "textbook" unmarked RZM chain.
Please, notice how different are the oak leafs.